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Strangers under the wires?


Andy Y
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Recently some debate has taken place on the wnxx forum regarding the use of diesels on passenger trains through Woodhead Tunnel after regular passenger workings ceased in 1970,  Diesel hauled footexs through Woodhead Tunnel are covered at https://www.rcts.org.uk/branches/sheffi ... d/wbfootex. although the list is probably not complete - further sightings or references being welcomed. Many having being mentioned in this topic already. 

Particularly on winter Sundays, various passenger trains were diverted off the Hope Valley route, due to engineering works and mishaps, to run via the Woodhead route. The majority of these were formed of DMUs although a few were locomotive hauled. The majority of the latter were St.Pancras trains and predominantly featured Class 45s although from October 1975 Class 47's were regularly used on the morning train from Piccadilly. It would be very interesting to know which locomotives, other than Class 45s, have been used on diverted timetabled passenger trains through Woodhead Tunnel between January 1970 and closure in July 1981. Examples of Class 25, 31, 37 and 47 are known about and it is possible 40s did see use on St,Pancras trains. The list below will be added too as more emerge.

Wednesday 26th May - Friday 28th May 1971 Class 37 on at least one day 1M72 07:33 Harwich Parkeston Quay - Manchester Piccadilly / 1E87 14:40 Manchester Piccadilly - Harwich Parkeston Quay
Hope valley closed from c19:00 25th May to c16:00 28th May due to derailment in Totley Tunnel. Likely that 1E62 01:50 Manchester Piccadilly - Cleethorpes & 1M99 23:25 Sheffield - Manchester Piccadilly would have used Class 31 or 37.

Saturday 20th January 1971 probable Class 37 or 47 1M72 07:33 Harwich Parkeston Quay - Manchester Piccadilly / 1E87 14:40 Manchester Piccadilly - Harwich Parkeston Quay.
Sheffield [Midland] closed from 00:01 20th - 06:30 22nd for re-signalling, Sheffield Victora re-opened during this period. Likely that 1E62 01:50 Manchester Piccadilly - Cleethorpes / 1M99 23:25 Sheffield - Manchester Piccadilly on 20th and 1E23 02:02 Manchester Piccadilly - Grimsby Town / 1M99 23:25 Sheffield - Manchester Piccadilly on 21st would have used Class 31 or 37.

Monday 16th July 1973 Class 47 1E87 15:17 Manchester Piccadilly - Harwich Parkeston Quay.
Sheffield Victoria re-opened due to flooding at Sheffield [Midland]
 

From 28th October 1975 morning Manchester Piccadilly - St.Pancras usually Class 47 hauled.

Monday 23rdFebruary 1976 47085 1E87 15:15 Manchester Piccadilly - Harwich Parkeston Quay
Reason for diversion not known

Sunday 25th February 1979 25074 1M51 09:45 Manchester Piccadilly - St. Pancras

Saturday 8th December 1979 31406 1E87 15:15 Manchester Piccadilly - Harwich Parkeston Quay

 

Sunday 23rd November 1980 47542 1M32 07:46 St,Pancras - Manchester Piccadilly

Winter diversions were shown in WTT to start the following week but presumably started earlier than planned

 

Sunday 8th February 1981 47215 1M32 07:46 St.Pancras - Manchester Piccadilly

 

Updated 27/10/17

Edited by Peter A Hall
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Mention has been made of the use of Trans-Pennine DMU's over Woodhead on services diverted  from the Hope Valley.  Full use of the Hybrid  Class 123/124 sets on what is often referred to as South-Pennine trains commenced with the May 1979 timetable.  These sets being regularly used on the Woodhead Route during the winter 1979/1980 and1980/1981 diversions.  The sets were progressively formed up from Summer 1978 as the 123s arrived from the Western Region so probably also appeared during the 1978/1979 diversions.  

 

Prior to this though their was a regular Sunday working for a thoroughbred Trans-Pennine set at a time when such sets were never otherwise seen on the Hope Valley.  As far as I am aware the working commenced with the May 1972 timetable and involved  the 08:55 Hull - Lime Street and 16:50 return.  This arrangement continued until May1979 although in later years the morning train laid over for a while in Sheffield and did not always use Trans-Pennine sets.

 

At one time a picture existed on the internet of a Class 76 arriving at Guide Bridge from the east hauling a Trans-Pennine set.  This picture has never been explained.  It could have been a rescue although the power would normally be off on a Sunday, so I'm told, or some ecs movement.  If indeed it did convey passengers it would have been a most unusual event. 

 

Also on Sundays since the 1960's  a 09:xx Lime Street - Sheffield and 19:xx return had run which used an Allerton rather than Eastern Region allocated DMU.  These workings regularly used a Derby Suburban Quad or if not single or paired Derby Twins. Thus giving quite a varied selection of DMU types crossing Woodhead on Sunday diversions.    

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Would the Footex services from Liverpool to Wadsley Bridge as referred to above used the Fallowfield Loop?

I don't recall seeing many passenger trains on the Fallowfield loop, maybe the very odd one but then how often would a Liverpool team have played in Sheffield.

 

It was probably easier just to route via Oxford Road and Ardwick or even over Chat Moss and then via Beswick joining Woodhead route at Ashburys.

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  • 1 month later...

The 07.50 SuO Manchester Piccadilly to St Pancras went over Woodhead as wellwith a class 47 and Mk1 stock.

As a Piccadilly Guard I worked the train over Woodhead to Sheffield and we returned with the 08.00 SuO St. Pancras - Manchester Piccadilly.

One Sunday near Christmas, 79 or 80, the St Pancras - Manchester train was formed of Air Cond Mk2 stock with the usual class 45

 

Peter

 

I have been digging in my notes with regard to the Sunday Piccadilly - St.Pancras train and as is often the case the memory timeline in my head is different to that one comes up with when checking other sources.

 

Anyhow, as far as I can establish, post 1970, regular Sunday diversions took place every winter from 1974/75 to 1980/81.  The latter three were contained in the gbptt/wtt whilst I have alterations leaflets for the first five. 

 

Unfortunately I have few sightings of the morning Piccadilly - St.Pancras but I am sure it was a Peak.  At that time there was still a daily Peak hauled 18:xx St.Pancras - Piccadilly and it would be the locomotive off this that would be used for the Sunday train.  However, this train was withdrawn Monday - Saturday in October 1975 although it continued to run on Sundays balancing the morning train.  Consequently locomotive and coaching stock was the responsibility of LMR Western Lines rather than LMR Midland Lines. Thus, from October 1975 I suspect the Sunday 07:xx Piccadilly - St.Pancras and 18:xx return became a regular Class 47 duty.

 

I can trace few sightings of these Sunday trains to confirm motive power but clearly the morning one was 47 as confirmed by Peter749.

 

Peter749. Give us a wave next time you are guarding in the evening parcels round Dore Curve!       

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I was on this, never seen a photograph of it, but I don't think a 40 on passenger over Woodhead was 'that common'. I don't seem to remember the route being published beforehand as even though we were kids at the time we knew something interesting looked to be happening when we didn't head to Ashton after 'turning left' near Miles Platting.

 

https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/70s/780930rv.html

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I used to travel to Sheffield and back quite a lot during 1979/80, several times the Sunday journey was over the Woodhead, I remember being hauled by a 40 and also a Trans Pennine set, iirc I photographed a TP coming the other way, through the front of the one I was travelling on. The 40 journey was used to photograph the signal boxes :yes:

 

I must dig out my photos of the Woodhead and Guide Bridge one day ..

Have been discussing with a fellow compiler of passenger locomotive workings whether or not it was possible to travel on a timetabled, as opposed to an excursion/footex/railtour, train through Woodhead Tunnel in the 1970 - 1981.  We have now come up with two possible occasions and this post could well be evidence of them. 

 

The wtt shows the 09:45 Piccadilly - St,Pancras as running via Woodhead on 30th December 1979.  However, I have in my Dore records this train being headed by 40081 on this date as far as Sheffield, suggesting diversion via the Hope Valley.  A comment on the wnxx forum   http://www.wnxxforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=16945  does though suggest that 40081 worked the train further than Sheffield and passed through Dore.  Not sure exactly where my reference was derived from though as not a personal observation so may have somehow become distorted.   However, the recollections of beast66606 could quite possibly have been on this day. Any one able to add any more regarding routings of Piccadilly - Sheffield trains and the movements of 40081 on this date? 

 

The other is 5th December 1976 when 40118 is recorded on RailGen Archive http://railgenarchive.co.uk/sc/diary.php?yr=1976&mn=12&fl=AL as heading the 09:45 Piccadilly - St,Pancras as far as Sheffield diverted via Woodhead.

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I am sure most of you reading this are familiar with http://www.yorkshirefilmarchive.com/film/my-farewell-sheffield-manchester-electrics-congreves which shows very much what you would expect under the wires, Class 76's and Class7's on the Harwich Boat Train.  However at around 6:25 is a clip, I think taken at Deepcar, showing a Class 40 on a five coach train.  It is presumed the clip was filmed just prior top withdrawal of the passenger service and the formation does suggest it was a timetabled train rather than some special working.  Very much a one off or something more regular?

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I am sure most of you reading this are familiar with http://www.yorkshirefilmarchive.com/film/my-farewell-sheffield-manchester-electrics-congreves which shows very much what you would expect under the wires, Class 76's and Class7's on the Harwich Boat Train.  However at around 6:25 is a clip, I think taken at Deepcar, showing a Class 40 on a five coach train.  It is presumed the clip was filmed just prior top withdrawal of the passenger service and the formation does suggest it was a timetabled train rather than some special working.  Very much a one off or something more regular?

 

It's got class 1 headlamps and the EE type 4 has pre tops numbers, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that it is a service train, I saw a couple of Sulzer 2 hauled service trains, so, presumably, there were times when it was easier to obtain a diesel in the event of an EM1 failure, probably more likely at the Manchester end.

Other occasions when service trains were diesel hauled were primarily at weekends when the power was off for maintenance.

 

Edit.

It could also be a football special, maybe from the Huddersfield direction.

 

Mike.

Edited by Enterprisingwestern
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  • 2 weeks later...

I am sure most of you reading this are familiar with http://www.yorkshirefilmarchive.com/film/my-farewell-sheffield-manchester-electrics-congreves which shows very much what you would expect under the wires, Class 76's and Class7's on the Harwich Boat Train.  However at around 6:25 is a clip, I think taken at Deepcar, showing a Class 40 on a five coach train.  It is presumed the clip was filmed just prior top withdrawal of the passenger service and the formation does suggest it was a timetabled train rather than some special working.  Very much a one off or something more regular?

Love the interlaced sand drag!

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  • 3 weeks later...

I have been scratching my head and doing a little more digging with regard to the Class 40. 

 

I am fairly certain the formation of the train is BSK+SK+CK+SK+BSk which fits exactly for trains on the route at the time according to the 1969 CWN.  So a service train has to be a possibility.

 

The subject of Newspaper trains via Woodhead at this time has been debated extensively on the wnxx forum.. The train under the spotlight being the 01:17 Manchester Piccadilly - Grimsby Town/Cleethorpes Passenger/Newspapers.  Monday to Saturday this was routed via Barnsley and Doncaster after leaving Penistone whilst on Sundays it was routed via Sheffield Victoria and Retford after leaving Penistone where a Grimsby Town / Cleethorpes portion via Barnsley had been detached..

 

Because of the layout of platforms at Manchester Piccadilly this train departed from those with ac electrification rather than dc electrification as only the ac platforms faced the carriage road from which newspapers were transhipped from road vehicles. Thus, the train left Manchester behind a diesel.  

 

Monday to Saturday this was replaced at Guide Bridge by an electric, this being confirmed by enthusiasts who had travelled on the train and by a 1967 LMR WTT I have.  At Penistone the electric was replaced by a diesel that had come light from Wath-upon-Dearne depot.

 

What happened on Sundays is less clear though as no eye witness reports have come to light.  However the 1967 LMR WTT does not show it as being a locomotive change at Guide Bridge but the ER WTT shows a locomotive change at Sheffield Victoria.  The forwarding locomotive having come light from Immingham. The locomotive for the portion detached at Penistone having come light from Wath-upon-Dearne.  

 

Perhaps on Sundays the train was actually booked to be worked through to Sheffield Victoria by a diesel, this would explain no locomotive change being shown at Guide Bridge.  That being the case could it have been the diesel locomotive returned on the first Sunday train from Sheffield at 09:30?   If the 09:30 was regularly diesel hauled I suspect few would be aware of the fact but perhaps Arnold Congreves, who shot the film, was and had deliberately gone out to get this particular sequence. 

 

With regard to the latter point it is interesting that Arnold has two different Harwich Boat Train sequences.  Also that he has two sequences of a van train.  My hunch is that the van train sequences were taken in early 1970 after the passenger service had been withdrawn.  Until January 1970 the newspaper vans returned tagged on to various trains through the day whilst after the passenger service had been withdrawn they went on their own dedicated lunchtime train which I suspect is what Arnold filmed.  This suggests Arnold had a good knowledge of workings on the route.      

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I think there is a misnomer it was all electric, it never quite was the all electric railway!

From the Steam era, and into the diesel era; we have an Eastern Region and a London Midland trippers culture!

West, seems to be steam. the J11 or N5 at Dinting ran trippers to Waterside, but also Glossop, and Hadfield Coal, and Dinting shed trains for the Glossop factory, nickel ore etc. This became a 3F or 4F in 1962. Also a Stanier 8F & B1 pictured at Dinting on the Ballast and a Lobster at Old Dinting goods. The Branch ceased in 1965 and the Dinting trains the end of 1967, alonmg with the yards closing 1966. Did diesels ever take over? Don't know, but latterly pictures of 25s, 40s, 31s delivering engines to Dinting.

East seems to have had J11 trippers, possibly to Deepcar, and maybe the pick up, but photos are very few. This was certainly 76s after Tinsley opened. There are trippers at Oughtybridge with 31s for sure. A slide of a Blue 08 at Dunford West turned up recently, there are pics on the electrification trains. Then HAAs were delivered to Penistone from Dodworth, 15 in a rake with varying diesels seen,20s 37s 45s,56s, 31s,47s on the last mile of the Wath Branch. Penistone old goods remained for coal until the last day, sometimes 20s, a 37 picked up 2 "cripple" 16T wagons on the last day. Dunford East had Ballast Trippers from Sheffield including single 20s, 25,31,37,47,48(!) upto about 1973. Plus DMUs on the Penistone-Sheffield part and 40s on the odd Manc-Sheffield passenger, and a mixture of Stratford 31,37,47 on the Boat Train,

At the bitter end pairs of 37s did the Freightliner, replacing earlier 47ss, and some of the lastdays  trains were 37 picking up duff wagons at Penistone via Dodworth, but descending the Worsborough bank on return, 45001 doing 2 trips Dodworth to Penistone, A Class 114 DMU up from Wath to film the Branch, a Class 104 a week previously down the mainline on an officers special. Later on in the darkness Freighliner 2x37s, a 47 and one 56 through the tunnel!

Fantastic. 

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  • 1 month later...

I've just found an old cutting from April 1982, not sure what magazine it was from, showing a picture of 56063 at Valehouse heading east on a Fiddler's Ferry MGR train on 7th July 1981.

 

The picture was taken by D. Moulden and the caption says that drivers from Guide Bridge were being trained on 56s prior to closure and the rerouting via Diggle which resulted in some 56s substituting for 76s over the last few days.

 

//Simon

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  • 4 months later...
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On ‎24‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 14:56, 50A55B said:

The location is Sheffield Victoria. The loco looks quite shiny so it could be on delivery from Vulcan Foundry to Doncaster.

 

I think this is quite possible.  p.156 5/59 Railway Observer says under Sheffield Victoria "D5903 was noted passing Sheffield in a southerly direction on 7th April but it returned again on the 9th"  This is prior to 17th April 1959 when it was first allocated to Hornsey.

 

This does suggest D59xx were perhaps delivered via Woodhead.  

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