Waverley Route Freight Flows

[Guest Max Stafford]

Having been studying so many photographs of trains on our favourite route, it's clear that a huge proportion of the extensive traffic carried was heavy inter-regional transfer between Kingmoor and Millerhill, with regular flows of block automotive traffic from 1963 also.

I am interested in determining if other block flows had regular pathing over the route and would also like to know more about local traffic flows too.

The District Controller's View is a good source insofar as 1950s period traffic is concerned, but with the creation of dedicated traffic flows from 1963, I'm sure some specialised flows would have been sent the Waverley, perhaps cement and petrochemical traffic. Although I've not seen much evidence of block traffic other than the famous car and truck trains I'll be delighted to have my scepticism squashed!

 

Dave.

['CHARD]

Good shout Dave. A thread long regarded by me as essential, and much of this belief - like yours - stems from the standard reference works. I have also seen cement and petrochemical mentioned - possibly by one Mr Spaven, in a Millerhill caption somewhere. But as yet no real evidence. It would be interesting to see W/T/T for the 1963-'67 period, of all those dozens of weekly freight paths surely they weren't all KM-MH runners and the Cars?

 

Did we ever take a view on that brief movie clip of what looked like paired Class 25s with anhydrite hoppers and claimed to be shot at Longtown?

 

And was a Freightliner service ever diverted over the WR? Surely that must have occurred, even as late as summer '68.

[Durranhill]

Don't have any info on the above but i do have an April 1964 Scottish Region freight train loads book (Orange book cover),it gives Instructions on the loading & working of freight trains.

It has plenty of info on the Waverley route like wagon loadings per class of loco (steam & diesel) & wagon capacities for loops/refuge sidings.

i.e Borthwick Bank up - 65 wagons

Falahill up - 58

Riddings Jct down - 45

" " up - 46

& now a big one Longtown No2 up - 103

 

I think Dave will be able to make more sense of the book than i can .

 

Stewart .

[Guest Max Stafford]

I'd be delighted to have a deek at it, Stewart!

 

One thing I've wondered of late is the route that the southbound automotive trains took through Carlisle.

 

I understand that the normal path northbound was Upperby through Bog Junction and Rome Street and across to Canal via Dalston Road then straight up the Waverley, avoiding Kingmoor Yard.

 

Coming south though, did they route via Mossband or come straight down on a reciprocal route to the northbounds?

 

Dave.

['CHARD]

Food for thought that, Dave. Never crossed my mind, I must confess, but with no need for sorting or cutting wagons on a block through working I expect it was the reverse of the down route. Cars between Longtown and Canal Jct duly added to the Waverley's Most Wanted!

 

Stewart, I expect that your deliberations with Dave over that fascinating document will provide much of note for the Waverlites. I look forward with keen interest!

 

103 SLU refuge at Longtown, Down - that has implications for the width of the formation all along that straight up to the A7 kink, and the mystery building...

[Pennine MC]

I have also seen cement and petrochemical mentioned - possibly by one Mr Spaven, in a Millerhill caption somewhere.

 

There are certainly at least two pics of a tanker rake, bearing the logo of one of the majors and barriered-up with a CCT or the like; dont think it's oil though, maybe LPG. One is double-headed by steam and is in one of the works on the route (seen in my mate's copy); the other is 47-hauled and IIRC is in a Bradford Barton

['CHARD]

You nailed it, the on-line one I recall is at MH yard, but it was 1971 or so. And it was a BFYE Class 46 on a BOC tanker train with barriers of what look like ferry vans.

 

Those Bradford Bartons have treasures buried deep, to yield to the persistent researcher only! I blame BB's lack of Waverley coverage for me being a latecomer to its traction charms (but not its civil engineering wonders).

['CHARD]

I have also seen cement and petrochemical mentioned - possibly by one Mr Spaven, in a Millerhill caption somewhere. But as yet no real evidence.

 

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=33220

 

Here's the quote, correctly attributed to David S.

['CHARD]

Here's a fairly conventional late period freight flow. The swinging sixties' conventional being 2011's unimaginably exotic:

http://www.railphotoprints.co.uk/index/detail/1034/D8570-D8573-Newcastleton-250666-RPC053001.jpg.html

[Guest Max Stafford]

One thing at the back of my mind at present; did the 1968 agreement over guards riding in the rear cab come into effect in time to affect the WR class 4s or did the need for reversal at the south end of Kingmoor yard require their retention?

 

Dave.

[Guest Max Stafford]

An interesting view from about '66 I reckon, going by the rationalisation and the diesel on the front. What I'm most interested in though is the large cut of tanks in what I'm assuming is a Class 6 service. I wonder what's being conveyed in the tanks, whose tanks (suspect BP going by what looks like a tank shield) and where they are going.

Although I suspect none on this scale, were there any major oil users on the route?

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/5734295280/in/set-72157626751054388

 

Dave.

['CHARD]

One thing at the back of my mind at present; did the 1968 agreement over guards riding in the rear cab come into effect in time to affect the WR class 4s or did the need for reversal at the south end of Kingmoor yard require their retention?

 

Dave.

 

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=31873 might take us somewhere nearer a position on this.

 

Note she's southbound, so it doesn't answer the Stainton Riddle (Stainton - again!), but it does address the '68 Agreement.

 

As for that slug of tanks passing Riccarton, I'm fascinated to know what/ whose they are. As for on-line users, heating oil distributors at St Boswells and Hawick is the closest this pundit's gonna venture...

[37175]

One thing at the back of my mind at present; did the 1968 agreement over guards riding in the rear cab come into effect in time to affect the WR class 4s or did the need for reversal at the south end of Kingmoor yard require their retention?

 

Dave.

Was the reversal the reason why freights often (always?) had a brake van at each end? Rear cab riding obviously negating that need?

['CHARD]

Was the reversal the reason why freights often (always?) had a brake van at each end? Rear cab riding obviously negating that need?

 

We believe the Kingmoor - Millerhills were thus endowed for the purpose of the Stainton reversal. Certainly all shots I've seen indicate that was the case at least until '67. Notably, through freights such as the cars, had no such provision at the front at least - anyone seen a shot of the rear of one, or remember from seeing them personally ?

 

Would rear cab riding eliminate the need at Stainton? Presumably yes, if the train was fully fitted. So far the only shot of a known fitted is that Belses southbound Class 4, which will go via Mossband and the flyover.

 

EDIT: southbound freights had no need of a brake van inside the loco, as seen here at Hawick in B1 days:

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=33193

[Guest Max Stafford]

Further to this, I have a framed print of a V2 going south over Shankend Viaduct with two brakes tucked in behind the loco. I think we can safely assume that these are being returned to Kingmoor in a balancing move.

 

Dave.

['CHARD]

Now that is very modellable in a quirks-of-the-line sort of way.

 

The shots of Gala goods yard in '67 from the passing train, I think on the RCAHMS site, are similarly alluring. There was definitely a dedicated brake van siding, even that late, in conjunction with domestic freight flows. And that's long after the demise of Selkirk as a traffic generator.

['CHARD]

This was lurking on the Holy Grail thread. More tank traffic, with a couple of LMS B's inside the inevitable K3:

http://www.railphoto...52-131.jpg.html

 

Thanks to Matt for doing the leg-work on that 'un.

 

This lovely lady has been captured at Hawick for your delectation:

http://www.railphoto...65-RP1.jpg.html

 

And down at Riccarton, this northbound service has the obligatory brake van inside the engine in '65:

http://www.railphotoprints.co.uk/index/detail/5942/60976-Riccarton-101265-RPCBR776.jpg.html

['CHARD]

I can hardly believe it's taken this long to see a jocko going about its gronking business with all 350 horses, as in this atmospheric shot of pure delight, taken at Millerhill on 23rd February 1963, enjoy:

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=34499

[Michael Delamar]

Im interested in shots of the ford car trains if anyone could post.

 

my interest lies more with the Liverpool end of the operation and also classic fords

but shots of the wagons/trains at any location would be great.

I may model them in the future using some old Hornby coach chassis.

 

heres a pic of one in Liverpool, it could be a Bathgate train or a London one because of the location which is Allerton junction. either way I think the wagons are the same.

http://www.railphoto...-CW765.jpg.html

 

was it always coach chassis trains or did individual flat wagons or cartics ever get used over the Waverley?

['CHARD]

Assuming the headcode is correct, she's southbound. There are several shots on the Main Thread, including the legendary double-headed steam workings.

 

As for stock, there has been some debate about this - see below - but the consensus is that Cartics never worked over the Waverley (they did the GSW, but earliest recorded pics are post-WR closure). Big Four and MkI chassis conversions of all common lengths all worked over the Route at various times. Four-wheelers did feature, but the only footage I have seen on the WR in this traffic are of military or agricultural vehicles.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/38811-mk1-motorail-flats-4mm/page__p__413910__hl__carflat__fromsearch__1&do=findComment&comment=413910

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/38817-diag-1094-carflat-a/page__p__413901__hl__carflat__fromsearch__1&do=findComment&comment=413901

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/29585-br-early-1960s-carflat-abocar-p/page__p__311989__hl__carflat__fromsearch__1&do=findComment&comment=311989

 

 

 

[Guest Max Stafford]

I think all the Waverley vehicles were converted coaches Mike.

I have seen a pair of empty ones marshalled into an ordinary goods rake in occasional photos.

 

Dave.

[Michael Delamar]

great stuff

didnt think about the headcode although it is the other side of Halewood heading towards Liverpool, anyway.

 

ive got some old Hornby gresleys, also lima and mainline mk1s I may use if they are any good.

 

sorry if its off topic heres another shot..

 

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=4122

 

I dont know how relevant the London rakes are to the Edinburgh ones.

[Michael Delamar]

this is from a Liverpool DVD, just outside Halewood, the commentator says its heading to Bathgate, I imagine because its class 40 hauled rather than electric,although can never rely on that alone.

its 1968 and the loco is D244 with a train of new mk1 escorts. Im guessing the 40 would come off at Carlisle?

 

 

will have a look im my Eric Treacy books to see if he recorded any on the west coast mainline.

[pH]

Its 1968 and the loco is D244 with a train of new mk1 escorts. Im guessing the 40 would come off at Carlisle?

Not necessarily, Michael. I saw D308 of Edge Hill on Bathgate shed in April 1964. I presumed it had brought in the Halewood car train. (I couldn't think what else would have brought a Liverpool loco to Bathgate, and the only other diesel on shed was a class 08.) Whether it was supposed to work through, or was meant to come off at Carlisle but had been left on because a replacement wasn't available, I don't know.

[Guest Max Stafford]

Unlike steam locos I imagine there would be no real need to change traction with the big type 4 up front, especially by 1968 when more intensive diagramming was taking place. I suspect, since these services generally bypassed Carlisle station at this time, routing through the old NE lines to Canal, that the crews would have changed over at Upperby Junction. I'll need to find one of the old guys and ask him.

 

Dave.