RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted October 11, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 11, 2011 Take it all in context ... put yourself back in 1999 as the Feasibility Study was being undertaken, 30 years after closure, and imagine that an Act of Parliament could be passed, Royal Assent could be granted, the first sod could be cut and primary works would be underway just 12 years later. On top of that you could also look at the actual building of the line, that following a non-starter during the contract process has now been passed to Britains railway infrastructure owner & operator, which is bit of a no-brainer anyway. How many years do you want to put on the word "progress"? From somne research I did into the Midland Railway's West Riding Lines across Bradford. this delay is not unusual. The initial feasability study and survey was done in the late 1880's, several different acts were passed, the last one in 1911. Land had to be purchased and tenders were due to be issued in mid 1914 but certain other events in Europe occurred and the process stopped. It was formally abandoned in 1920 when economic conditions had changed drastically. So perhaps 12 years is not too exceptional. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 So perhaps 12 years is not too exceptional. Jamie Seeing as the original took around 18 years I reckon they are doing rather well. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 The future station site serving Lady Vic Pit: http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=36100 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 And an A4 at Lothianbridge - surely the greatest single engineering feat on the line, and an amazing and welcome survivor: http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=36146 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisM Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Very good Chard, although I am a bit concerned I still looked for a streak on top of the viaduct even after seeing the Audi! Nice picture though, it seems to be a place that was rarely photographed when open. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCromptonParkinson Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Reading in Railexpress this month on the Border's progress something caught my (third) eye that I didn't really like. It was in the short piece's closing line when it said that Network Rail were to survey the line and then report back on the budget/timescale to the DFT (Scotland) before any further work would commence after whats been started already. That's a very much 'watch this space' in my opinion and could see a change in the work scope before the project kicks off. From previous experience NWR will very much have an idea of what they want to do - Agreed Chard? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted October 25, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 25, 2011 I would agree but recent projects do point to NWR getting their act together. Sterling Alloa was not well managed by the various agencies involved and I think (though I'm not sure of the facts) that it was well over budget. Airdrie Bathgate which I think NWR managed appears to have gone much more smoothly so perhaps it's not bad news. Anyway I don;t think that NWR would sign contracts and make committments without at least checking that they know excatly what's being asked of them. Pehrpahs some of their engineers still help carry out checks on the viaducts and any other structures that are still the responsibility of whatever the BR residuary board is called nowadays so there may be a pool of knowledge to tap into. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Before I weigh into the firestorm of The CromptonParkinson's NWR misgivings, and he and I do have form in this area, here's a shot of Eskbank. Sadly, the remaining artefacts on show, and there are many, will be swept away in the name of the rebirth. To that end, I'm planning a pilgrimage here on 7th January 2012. Any takers? http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=36157 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 I would agree but recent projects do point to NWR getting their act together. Sterling Alloa was not well managed by the various agencies involved and I think (though I'm not sure of the facts) that it was well over budget. Airdrie Bathgate which I think NWR managed appears to have gone much more smoothly so perhaps it's not bad news. Anyway I don;t think that NWR would sign contracts and make committments without at least checking that they know excatly what's being asked of them. Pehrpahs some of their engineers still help carry out checks on the viaducts and any other structures that are still the responsibility of whatever the BR residuary board is called nowadays so there may be a pool of knowledge to tap into. Jamie Aye, the A2B project (Airdrie - Bathgate) has a good reputation within the civils supply side, if my ex-counterpart there is to be believed (Macclesfield Isha to jog The Crompton's memory, yes, see you do recall her!). I'm very hopeful (glass half full, me, on matters Waverley) that the business and project management model NWR appears to be using recently in conjunction with Transport Scotland will deliver this efficiently and sufficiently positively that extending through Melrose and St Boswells and onto Teri becomes a political, commercial and social no-brainer. Regarding the knowledge pool, I've long harboured that slightly warm notion, but with my workplace hat on I think the economic and planning reality may be somewhat different. Rather than kindly-disposed surveyors with the WR in their blood I think we have functional specialists with realistic modelling tools, determining optimum packages for rehabilitating the route, based on several iterations out in the field on previous projects, and a costing model that's been finessed over time to produce robust, deliverable solutions. PS: sorry I went off into civils tender presentation mode there but i feel passionately about this being a positive development (Oly, you've got a text message!) - shame I never did get to do my bit of the tender for one of the three consortia, but as we now know, it's NWR's show from now on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCromptonParkinson Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Be under no illusion though that this work will be managed by NWR and contracted out. Hopefully, following in the example of other projects, a policy is put in place to use local firms as much as possible. I imagine NWR will now go through a tender process like they did with Airdrie (Balfours winning that one). I'm looking forward to seeing how the work is chopped up and worked out - what they'll be using as 'traction' (CTRL - 14s and 20s, ELL - 'Clayton Electrics' - Matey) and whether the work will be centrally located or split up like big projects before it, all of which I'm sure will all become clear. The local B&Bs and Hotels will be busy with subcontractors for the specialist jobs brought in from all over the country. I think the January trip will be one of the last times to remember the closed (north) section of the line and surrounding area as it has stood since it all closed, because when that work kicks off, it'll be instantaneously transformed into yet another bank of Waverley memories. Bring on 158s on the Border's Railway! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Spot on bro. The thought of 14s for contractors' drags has made me go wrong - I'm having to make a brew to calm myself. 20s on telecomms or 37s on ballast drags would be incredible, assuming that at some point there'll be through working from a virtual quarry. You're completely on the money with the local hostelries, B&Bs etc - this will be like Dalston and Bishopsgate all over again! Let's hope the 2012 version won't be quite so visceral as its Victorian counterpart linked below: Imported from the resource room: "Social commentary and insights don’t come better than this – navvy life in tooth, claw and hooch den, it’s all here at Victorian web, look around but especially check out Chapter 12 The Making of Hawick*: http://www.victorianweb.org/history/work/sullivan/contents.html" Now then, do we reckon the reborn line will be graced with the salmon pink ballast beloved of 'Scottish'? * this is an essential WR work that every GCSE history student should be forced to memorize. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37175 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Spot on bro. The thought of 14s for contractors' drags has made me go wrong - I'm having to make a brew to calm myself. 20s on telecomms or 37s on ballast drags would be incredible, assuming that at some point there'll be through working from a virtual quarry. Got to admit being rather selfish here and hoping any contracting locos required may come from a nearby preserved railway with a rather nice pool of large-logo class 37s ... icing on the cake and all that, or possibly wishful thinking?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37175 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Let's hope the 2012 version won't be quite so visceral as its Victorian counterpart linked below: Imported from the resource room: "Social commentary and insights don’t come better than this – navvy life in tooth, claw and hooch den, it’s all here at Victorian web, not just chapter 12 either, look around: http://www.victorian...ullivan/12.html" * Now then, do we reckon the reborn line will be graced with the salmon pink ballast beloved of 'Scottish'? Seems to be up again: http://www.victorian...n/contents.html Pink ballast? That'll be Cloburn Quarry, Lanarkshire, as per: From: http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/924979 ... this is where WRHA get it from for Whitrope. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tony graham Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 That's some trek for ballast for the WRHA shame we couldn't bring it in by rail... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Sure is, I'll register as Wandering Willie and add some of this to my shopping cart! http://www.cloburn.c...y-track-ballast There's even a page 'Why Cloburn Red?' which is a class act, pure and simple! However, it's not visible in this shot, which I have imported from a thread of Phil's: Clayton equivalents climbing to Whitrope on the reopened Waverley Route, with a GBRf intermodal from Carlisle to Millerhill, 6th January 2019: licensed under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license is included in the section entitled GNU Free Documentation License. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 As TheCromptonParkinson noted earlier, it'll soon be Last Chance To See many facets of the northern part of the route, prior to reconstruction. One such location is Bowland, where this sylvan autumnal view from the goods yard, closed 1964, will be drastically altered as the new formation is made, and quite possibly a cast concrete deck span goes in to bridge the B710, seen here with the present quaint amd plain Victorian ironwork: http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=36185 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roygraham Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 For the record, this was bridge 80 in 1969: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Roy that looks WELL, very well. These bridge photos of yours are building up a fantastic new resource. Many thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roygraham Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Well, I've been sitting on them for over 40 years. All I ask is that nobody publishes them. roygraham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 VT of the rebuild, of particular interest for fans of BYM* * big yellow machines Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted October 30, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 30, 2011 That's good to see Chard. I presume that that is somewhere alongside Millerhill yard and that the OHLE was switched off at the time. Can you see that area on Google earth as I'm not too sure of the geography. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 That's good to see Chard. I presume that that is somewhere alongside Millerhill yard and that the OHLE was switched off at the time. Can you see that area on Google earth as I'm not too sure of the geography. Jamie Google Maps, search simply for Millerhill and use the zoom tool when you switch to Google Earth. Toggle north a wee bit, and the vantage point is the minor road overbridge immediately south of where the A1 dual carriageway crosses the yard's northernmost point. The new line comes off as a 90 degree westbound curve into the site of Monktonhall pit, which is the vast area of brownfield to the west of the yard. Note that the former down yard's layout is surreally picked out by what look like neat rows of woodland. Further south you can make out the OHLE depot which is the southernmost point of what was the original solum of the line, and none of which will be returned to use, due to the oblique crossing, on the level, of the Edinburgh Southern By-pass. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Looks like a crafty move by the planners. From space appears that the new route is going to skirt the western edge of the yard, keeping the old down yard land inside the railway fence. Well, if things go well they might need a lot of it again! ;-) Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62440 Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Lies, Damned lies, and fag packet calculations. In 1968, Mr Marsh reported "to retain the present services over the whole line would involve a 'social grant' of about £700,00 a year" source: Scottish Daily Mail & News Chronicle, Tuesday 16 July 1968 Out comes fag packet: so that's £700,000 needed in 1969 with inflation £744,800 needed in 1970 : total £1,444,800 and £814,811 needed in 1971 : total £2,259,611 and so on until 2010, when the initial grant of £700,000 would represent a whopping £8,598,558 with inflation. (The yearly inflation figures can be found on the Net.) But interestingly, the total outlay in grants comes to (just!?) £196,000,000 for the whole line, whereas the cost of rebuilding Edinburgh to Tweedbank is reported to be some £295,000,000. So, would it really have been cheaper to keep the whole line open in 1969 and save the public purse some £100,000,000 by 2014 to rebuild a branch line? I've made no assumptions other than the cost of running the railway would increase at the rate of inflation: doubtless there are many factors that could sway the final figure one way or the other. I'd be delighted - as a tax payer - if someone would rubbish these figures of mine and show that closing the line has actually saved me money! Bruce Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Your figures are rubbish Bruce. There we go. I said it. You ignore the cost of road improvements that would not have been needed if the railway had remained. You ignore the cost of welfare payments to those who were made redundant. I won't hog the topic. I am sure others can come up with more points. I think if you look at any major project today and cost it in relation to a period of say 50 to 100 years ago you will find that despite all the modern aids actual costs have escalated out of all poportion. The modern world seems to have lost the ability to carry out even fairly simple jobs in an economic way. Well, economics as I understand them. Ask your local council how much it costs to put up a simple item like a new road sign for example or, heaven forbid, to lower the kerb outside your house. When we have an example of projected ongoing costs against a rebuild as in this case the figures will always come out in favour of the original being maintained. That's before you take into account the creative way in which government projects are costed. Not going there. Bad for the blood pressure. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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