Where and what if modelling the Woodhead line

[Trevor H]

My thoughts of modelling some kind of representation of this famous route have come to a high at this time in my life and like many of you, we've all had our thoughts on modelling EM1's (class 76) and EM2's, to run up and down a bit of trackwork.

 

Over the years their have been some very inspirational layouts and with the forthcoming locos from Olivia Trains/Heljan, I'm sure their will be a lot more appearing over the coming years. Over time I had collected a small collection of 4mm loco kits to build one day, which were quickly sold on when hearing the announcement of the RTR model, with plans to buy a couple when released.

 

And then my ideas on modelling the MSW in 4mm changed, some reasons for this:

1) a flood of 4mm layouts because of the RTR model,

2) dipping my toes into 2mm last year, with my attempt at trying to build something South Wales based for the 2mm SA anniversary, which was an excellent learning curve for me,

3) Alan Whitehouse's Mini MSW, inspirational modelling in this scale and finally

4) space! whatever I plan to build will need to fit comfortably within the confines of home.

 

So for me its 2mm, thankfully from my South Wales attempt I have built up a reasonable collection of wagons which I can use, Minerals, 21t Hoppers, Coke Hoppers, Bogie C's & E's, a mixture of vans and some PW stock. Which gives me a start and with the excellent 2mm kits and the standard of the Farish stock now available, things are a lot easier. So the next step for me is to attempt to build a EM1 kit and if this works out to my satisfaction, then my thoughts will be one step closer to fruition.

 

The era I'd model would be 1969, the last year of passenger services using EM1's (although going back a year and running EM2's is tempting). I believe the MGRs started to be used on the route in 1970, so luckily I'd be using good old traditional coal trains, even the 16t mineral wagon has some charisma about it. Also their would be steel and mixed goods traffic out of Tinsley and the occasional diesel services including passenger like the Harwich Boat Train and Brush 4's on the freightliner.

 

As to where I'd base the model this is the more difficult situation, I would love to build a layout on something prototypical and although the Manchester side has some very interesting locations, my memories are of Victoria, Darnall and Penistone stations, along with Wath, so the Sheffield side it would have to be.

 

1) Wath would be virtually all coal and no passenger services, so that's out for me.

2) Sheffield Victoria is something I've always dreamt of been able to model, but would be a lifetimes work.

3) Darnall station would make a nice layout, but probably a bit boring to operate and the wrong side of Victoria, for the passenger services and the wrong end of Woodbourn Jct for Tinsley trains heading West.

4) Darnall Jct, would also make a nice layout between Kettle Bridge and the footbridge at Acres Hill, if you was willing to lose the steam shed/carriage sidings area and imagine looking at the then modern diesel depot at the front of the layout, with the up an down lines running behind and the Tinsley line joining from Woodbourn Jct, whilst the Cravens RC&W works would make an ideal backscene. But again it has the same services as Darnall station, but for a lot more work.

5) Penistone, a wonderful place to visit in my spotting days, but probably totally beyond modelling.

6) So that only leaves one place for me, somewhere that has always fascinated me, but have never been too and that is Dunford Bridge. With its passing loops and a small array of sidings (which may well of been out of use by 1969), the new station halt and signal box against the remains of the old and all this amongst its rolling hills, well model-able.

 

Anyhow I'll shut up now, Its Dunford Bridge circa 1969 for me, although something fictional would be highly more likely.

 

Any one else have any dreams/thoughts on what they'd like to model.

[Andy Y]

Oh you've started something dangerous here Trevor.

 

My affinity with the MSW is mainly the other side of the hills from childhood onwards. I found the spot on Google maps last night where the home my grandparents were that overlooked the line (Ashton Road twixt Flowery Field and Newton for Hyde) beyond a scrapyard. Long visits there were only made more tolerable by looking out of the window at a procession of trains at the tail end of the 60s and early 70s.

 

Trips up Longdendale were a big visual improvement on the back end of Ashton and the itch to model a small portion of the wildness has been around for a long time. To date nothing that has been modelled aside from Gary Atkinson's Woodhead has captured the feel of anywhere down from Woodhead and even then it's something that's crying out to be modelled on a wider canvas.

 

Most of my hours along the route were in the blue days when the loops that straddled the line up the valley had gone but retaining those within a model would give more operating potential. By my time Torside had been somewhat denuded with the loss of the loops, the arrival of a barrier crossing and the loss of the footbridge so, for me, the ideal time to base the layout upon would be up to the mid 1960s. Of course that wouldn't wholly dissuade me from running later stock whilst waving the licence.

 

 

 

The layout would also have the potential to be run as pre-energisation with a procession of O4s and the like and even an electrification engineer's train for something a little different.

 

To do the bleak openness of the location any justice the layout would need to be 20' - 30' long as the interest would lie in a procession of workings and the ability to hold trains in the loops ideally with a full train visible before reaching the centre-stage crossing.

 

Like you my enthusiasm for such a project was slightly dampened at the prospect of their being a flood of MSW wannabees just to show off a couple of the latest RTR; given the number of EM1s required to operate a layout of this kind the 50% above what it should be price of the Olivia's offering is also a consideration. But that isn't the only option available (see, the itch won't go away).

 

I've also considered changing the layout's viewpoint to be that of looking down to the reservoir but it's not an easy thing to pull off. I'd also like to include the pylons across the front of the layout but, from what I can tell, they didn't appear until around the 1970s.

 

Crowden is also a possibility with its super-elevations and dereliction and could be more appealing with it's long curve and the possibility of including the edge of the reservoir.

[Poggy1165]

Oh, I have plenty of dreams, it's just that space and money make me ignore them, not least because I work in 7mm scale.

 

The three projects I have 'thought' of for the day I win the lottery:

 

i) Woodhead Old station. The tunnels form a natural scenic break and the old station was quite something. Albeit the scenery above the tunnels would go a bit high!

ii) Torside Crossing - a nice simple one this, albeit with loops to add interest. Valehouse might be an alternative, a bit less bleak and also with loops for shunting goods trains out of the way.

iii) Dinting Vale Viaduct (with Dinting station, engine shed and the triangle if I had a covered tennis court).

 

What they have in common is that they are all basically 'watching trains go by' locations, which is what I want 90% of the time. If there was room somewhere to have a miniature Dewsnap for shunting, my happiness would be complete.

[Alex Duckworth]

I think that there may be a Woodhead themed layout in quite a few modellers imaginations, and like Trevor and Andy I'm sure that many in 4mm will appear following the Olivia's/Heljan release ( which I'm quite looking forward to - I have an EM1 and EM2 on order). It does, however, seem to be a natural subject for 2mm or N gauge given the ability of the smaller scales to portray a railway in a landscape and also to fill my requirements for a reasonably sized layout on which I can sit and watch the trains go by, as I don't enjoy operating but I like to see my models moving.

 

Like Andy I have been toying with the idea of something based on Torside but it would have to be pretty large to get the full effect, even in 2mm. The Mini - MSW concept really made me start thinking about a small circular layout that was a representation of the line rather than a real location, and having a straight section of about five feet between the curved ends would allow me to model one of the smaller viaducts, like Oxspring or Romtickle and still keep the open feel of the route, although the twin railway bridges over the river at Dukinfield are a very attractive proposition for a model. Mind you, there is also that photo of the 76's in the snow at Penistone............................

 

 

Alex.

[coachmann]

Andy Y said :

I found the spot on Google maps last night where the home my grandparents were that overlooked the line (Ashton Road twixt Flower Field and Newton for Hyde) beyond a scrapyard.

This prompted me to look on Google Maps for the bridge close by where I was born. I was suprised to find the fence I sat on circa 1950-54 has now got a station beside it called Flowery Field! Anyway I traced Google along Bennett Street, turned right along Ashton Road and I presume the bridge you referred to is that overlooking Newton Station. If this isnt the bridge you were referring to, I wonder which one you meant?

 

Places for watching trains are not always places to model unfortunately. I wouldnt recreate the location on Bennett Street, Flowery Field, but Godley Junction had a lot going for it.

[Andy Y]

I wonder which one you meant?

 

That's the one. http://goo.gl/maps/ndqk

 

The new build townhouses occupy what was a scrappy yard area years back.

 

 

 

 

 

[Trevor H]

That's the one. http://goo.gl/maps/ndqk

 

The new build townhouses occupy what was a scrappy yard area years back.

 

 

Then this view looking in the opposite direction may have some memories

http://www.flickr.co...157624056110939

 

Also if you go to old maps http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html

and enter these coordinates, 395337 and 395654,

scroll down and click on the 1968 map on right,

click on enhance zoom,

then click view full screen.

 

You will get yourself a detailed trackplan.

 

Trevor.

[coachmann]

That's the one. http://goo.gl/maps/ndqk

 

The new build townhouses occupy what was a scrappy yard area years back.

I thought it was Andy. I probably had one of my first sightings of a train from that bridge in the mid 1940s only a few years after being delivered by stork to the Aspland Hospital around the corner!

 

Back to modelling and that's a great view of Newton Station, an ideal location to model actually although i had not considered it before seeing that picture.

[PaulCheffus]

 

Any one else have any dreams/thoughts on what they'd like to model.

 

 

Hi

 

I'm slowly working on a representation of Godley Junction mid 70s to closure of the main line over Woodhead in N.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[APOLLO]

Having aquired years ago an old Tri-ang EM2 & nowhere to run it, for a long time I've thought about a non working Diorama of the three portals of Woodhead tunnel, Woodhead end. Just before opening in early 50's, with "new" EM2 just outside the new tunnel, on new track, with a steam hauled express (BR flying scotsman & carmine/cream coach entering old tunnel. I have a suitable photo for this somewhere. Only working bit will be a smoke unit in old tunnel, on a timer.

 

Have all the bits - just need the time. Also I might get "Woodhead fever" and get carried away !!

 

Brit15

[dave076]

Wenthworth Junction must have been a interesting place.

 

The pictures I saw show a 37 bringing mgr wagons up to the mainline from the colliery , the 37 dropped off and a pair of 76s coupled up, these then pulled the wagons into a loop/siding where another pair of 76s dropped onto the rear of the train. The train then reversed and set off up the bank with the first pair as bankers and the pair at the rear became the train engines.

 

How things worked when the train returned Ive no idea, but you could change the 37 for an 04 and also the garratt filled its coal direct from the bunker at Wentworth pit.

 

Not much scope for passenger stock though!

[Alan76]

Wentworth Junction was an interesting place. In addition to being the junction for Wentworth Silkstone Colliery, back in steam days it was where the bankers came on to tackle the Worsborough Bank up to West Silkstone Junction. To facilitate the movement of banking engines back onto their siding as they returned from giving trains a shove up the bank, it had that unusual feature, a facing single slip. But when I was a lad back in the 1970's, it was almost equally interesting because the loco for the colliery trip - it was Wath Trip 72, was a diesel, usually a Class 37. This made a change from the Class 76s that had a virtual monoply on the traffic there. The method of operation for T72 was as follows: The train of empties would arrive from Wath and stop at Wentworth's Home signal. The loco would detach and, using the crossover, return towards Wath as far as Kendal Green Crossing, using that box's crossover to return behind its train of empty MGRs. The loco coupled on and propelled the whole 30-wagon set onto the colliery branch and a quarter of a mile of so into the colliery sidings. The wagons were then filled and gravity shunted until a complete train was ready. The loco would then hook on and take the whole lot back down to Wath only for them to return later behind a pair of 76s with another pair banking. Until 1971, trains were made up at Wentworth Junction and despatched from there. The diesel loco would bring them off the branch to the start of the overhead line. A pair of 76s would then draw them onto the Down Main (the Westbound line), blocking back into Kendal Green's section. A second pair of 76s, waiting in the Colliery Siding (not the branch) would then run out onto the main and back down onto the train and couple on. The whole assemblage, two 76s, 30 MGRs and two more 76s banking, would begin the ascent to West Silkstone Junction and so on to Penistone and the main Woodhead Line. This method of operation was ended after an accident in which the waiting MGRs, with locos at the rear standing on the Down Main were overlooked and a second Down train allowed into the section from Kendal Green. The result was a spectacular collision in which, fortunately, no one was badly injured. After that, everything was diesel tripped to Wath Yard. It would make a fantastic model though!

 

Alan

 

 

[Flying Pig]

Signal diagram of Wentworth Junction here* "made available by Alan Whitehouse".

 

It's not completely clear to me from the diagram how the returning bankers reached their siding. It looks as though they'd need to reverse three times at discs 11, 6 and 19.

 

 

*Actually, I'm not sure this site has been linked from the group yet: it's at http://www.lymmobservatory.net/railways/railways.htm (the Woodhead signal diagrams are in the "signal box diagrams" section).

[Alan76]

That's because the connection had been taken out by the time of the track layout shown on this diagram Simon. Looking at where the left hand turnout leaves the main line into the colliery siding connection and the branch, this turnout was once a facing single slip - a really unusual formation and one that I don't think would have been allowed on passenger lines. But it allowed traffic off the Down Main onto the Colliery Branch, and, because it also linked into the Up Main, it meant that returning bankers could stop and reverse straight across the Down and into the sidings before reversing again to park up on what is called the 'Colliery Siding' on that diagram, but was in fact the bankers' siding in steam days. There were no bankers after electric operation began in 1952, but it took about 20 years before the connection was finally removed!

 

Alan

[Flying Pig]

Thanks Alan - that makes sense now. How do you feel about propelling 30 x HAA over a slip in 2mm?

[Alan76]

Easy Peasy! Though not through a slip I'd built myself, I suspect. What I am doing is looking hard into the history of the Worsborough Branch to try to shape and stretch histopry a little to come up with a sort of 'might have been'. For example: OS maps from the 1920's show the Wentworth Silkstone branch as a disused railway, with earthworks but no track. Yet by the 1930's it was back in use - we know this because H C Casserley visited and did a set of cracking pictures of the junction and the branch. At the same time, there was a branch to another long closed colliery called, I believe 'Sovereign'. I have a poor quality print of a GC Box captioned 'Sovereign'. When you look at the maps closely, you see that any number of coal mines opened and closed as did coke ovens and other related industries. Rather than build a model of an actual location - and Wentworth Junction was a favourite idea because I spent many happy hours in the box there and rode the T72 trip working a time or two - I'm starting to think about some sort of 'historical composite' idea, combining the best bits of two or more locations which were not necessarily operational at the same time, into something modellable in the space I will have available.

 

Alan

[Michael Delamar]

looking forward to seeing you recreate this Andy

 

http://www.railphotoprints.co.uk/index/detail/12072/76016-Y-Torside-150979-DCC483.jpg.html

[Ursa Major]

The sand drags at Valehouse would make an interesting feature on a "watching trains go by" type layout. There was an overbridge on the Woodhead side of the signal box, which gives you the exit to fiddleyard in one direction, and the railway was in a cutting so a suitably placed clump of trees would hide the Hadfield end.

[Supaned]

Although I do quite fancy the idea of modelling the passenger services over the route , I think what I'd like to do is replicate the banking of trains up Worsborough Bank.

 

With DCC it should be quite possible, and I'd advocate using 2 crews , one for the pair of 76s on the front , and one for the banking loco(s).

 

I think realistically , it would have to be 2mm scale to allow for scale train lengths and to enable a section of incline to be built.

 

If time , money and space were no object, I would love to model Sheffield Victoria in it's 1950s-60s heyday with steam , diesel and electric.

[xm607]

 

Although I do quite fancy the idea of modelling the passenger services over the route , I think what I'd like to do is replicate the banking of trains up Worsborough Bank.

 

With DCC it should be quite possible, and I'd advocate using 2 crews , one for the pair of 76s on the front , and one for the banking loco(s).

 

I think realistically , it would have to be 2mm scale to allow for scale train lengths and to enable a section of incline to be built.

 

If time , money and space were no object, I would love to model Sheffield Victoria in it's 1950s-60s heyday with steam , diesel and electric.

 

Hi,

If you modelled the middle part of the Worsborough bank, posibly at one of the level crossings you would not need to couple / uncouple the extra locos to the train, just have unpowered locos at the rear.

By the way I have modelled Sheffield Victoria west in N Gauge but when the project was 80% complete the it was stalled due to the inabillity of Dapol to make a steam loco go around a 9" curve and they do B17's, 9F's, thank God for the Farish B1 which I have 2 I suppose I could put a B17 body upon a B1 chassis. At the east end I used a 9" radius circle to help with the operation of the station.

S.

[xm607]

Hi again,

 

Here is a photo for the track work for Sheffield Victoria west, the other end when it was first built and I was sorting out the electrical bugs in the track work.

s.

[AMJ]

I wonder if someone will do a reduced version of Man Pic with the MSW DC in the northern platforms and the AC in the others as there will be a few tempted by both the EM1/EM2 models and the AL5.

 

 

[D605Eagle]

I'm just starting a build of the Woodhead route of the section from Wortley Station to Thurgoland tunnel, compressed some what, as my Grandparents house overlooked this section. I'm modeling it in the 1920s, so I can run both GCR and early LNER liveried locos. At the moment I'm still preparing the room, but I'll put up pictures on here as I progress.

Jim

[cheesysmith]

xm607, where can i find out more about your layout, especially photo`s and plans. Also, very interested in plans of sheffield victoria station. Intending one day to model it, after all, you can use so many of heljans locos on it. There would be the em1 and 2, dp2, falcon, kestral, lion and if you modified one, the type4 brush type2. All these were used on the master cutler at one time or another.

 

DS Smith

 

Modelers license would be used to enable all to be used at once.

[Alan76]

I'm surprised that no-one's yet mentioned the 'other' end Woodhead Tunnel: Dunford Bridge. It has a lot going for it - the rarity of a 1950s newly-built station and signalbox to a very distinctive style, a handful of little used sidings and the Up Goods Loop for a bit of operational interest. And the line of route swept in magnificently from the Don Valley through the tiny station (two coach platforms) under a road bridge, through a short rock cutting and into the tunnel itself. Few trains actually stopped there but you'd have the option and you could bring to life an idea abandoned early in the project'd life and run an MHG 3-car EMU set as a stopper (I suspect this may be why the platforms at Dunford and Woodhead itself were so short) with loco-hauled expresses flying through. Plodding goods workings, light engines, the odd diesel. Even a fixed Home signal!

 

Ooops! just re-read the OP and Trevor's already plumped for Dunford Bridge! Good call!