Loco hauled Mk3's

[Simon_R]

In particular the blue/grey variety

 

I have no memory of ever seeing them as they wher no doubt out of the area I used to visit as a kid, plus blue/grey is a few years before my interest in all things rail began,

 

I was wondering what the consists where like and what kind of haulage they had, as well as where they could be found??

 

Any info appreciated. I've got a growing rake of Jouef here that need something to pull them

[BernardTPM]

The loco-hauled Mk.3s were used on the West Coast Main Line, usually behind 86/2s or 87s. When new (1975/6), the rakes would have Mk.1 kitchen/buffet coaches and a Mk.1 BG. Kitchen coaches would vary but some would be RKB, possibly with RFO (again Mk.1) or just an RB. The Mk.3 RUB buffet coaches came later (hence the end roof vents are different, being like the HST type; those on the Jouef buffet are wrong).

[eastwestdivide]

It was also fairly common early in their career for mostly-Mk3 trains out of Euston to have the odd Mk2 air-con (or even non-air-con) in the set. Seem to recall quite a few BSOs at the north end of the train, so that from the buffers at Euston you'd typically have Mk1 BG, maybe 3-4 FO (mostly/all Mk3), Mk1 catering, maybe 5-6 TSO (mostly/all Mk3), and a Mk2 BSO at the north end.

Doubtless plenty of variations, exceptions and oddities.

[Edwin_m]

Used mainly on Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow if I recall correctly, with West Midlands sets mostly being Mk2s although they got Mk3 buffets and DVTs later as well. So they mostly stayed under the wires except for diversions when various unsuitable machines like no-heat class 40s could be pressed into service.

 

From about 1979 the Glasgow-Edinburgh sets were Mk3 with a Mk2 DBSO, push-pulled by a Class 47/7. These were about the only routes where hauled Mk3 day coaches could regularly be found in the blue/grey era.

[giz]

There's always the odd exception:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/3861945278/in/set-72157604142594351/

 

A Deltic at York with scottish mk3s.

 

My guess is these were after transfer but before the start of the push-pull services.

[Simon_R]

I'll dig out what pics i have (or 110 vintage) from my days spotting at crewe but i'm pretty sure most stock was mk2 aircons in the late 80's?

[Talltim]

Remember that there were no Mk3 brakes, so a train would aways include either a Mk2 brake of some sort, or a Mk1 full brake. IIRC some of these were upgraded for faster running with Commonwealth bogies.

[giz]

Remember that there were no Mk3 brakes, so a train would aways include either a Mk2 brake of some sort, or a Mk1 full brake. IIRC some of these were upgraded for faster running with Commonwealth bogies.

 

Mk3 sets usually had a Mk1 BG fitted with B4 bogies which were specially rated for 110mph running (coded NHA I think) before the advent of DVTs. Before that the BGs were B4 equiped but only 100mph rated.

 

BGs with Commonwealths came later (late 80s ish) and were more for parcels use.

 

There were a few Mk3 brakes, BFOs, but they weren't built until about 1985.

[Camberwell Green]

To expand on the previous post (and as has probably been covered elsewhere on the forum previously) three Mark 3 BFOs were built and used on the WCML until the demise of loco hauled services. They now provide the brake and seated passenger facilities on the Night Riviera sleeper services operated by FGW between Paddington and Penzance.

[newbryford]

I'll dig out what pics i have (or 110 vintage) from my days spotting at crewe but I'm pretty sure most stock was mk2 aircons in the late 80's?

 

Most of the Mk3a (and Mk3b BFO brakes) loco-hauled stock was on the WCML in the 80's. The London-Scottish stuff that I saw at Preston was predominantly Mk3 with Mk2 sets on Cross-Country workings such as Glasgow-Poole. Mk2's through Crewe would probably be the likes of Manchester-south coast/south-west workings.

I'm sure Natalie of this forum can provide definitive details and formations.

 

I have plenty lots of slides of (mainly) Crewe Diesel 47/4's on very regular weekend diversions with Mk3a formations [*] via the S&C

 

Cheers,

Mick

[*] with the previously commented Mk1 catering/brake and odd aircon Mk2's in the rake

[brushman47544]

There's always the odd exception:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/3861945278/in/set-72157604142594351/

 

A Deltic at York with scottish mk3s.

 

My guess is these were after transfer but before the start of the push-pull services.

I can't remember when the E-G push-pull services with Mk3s started, but it may have been after this photo was taken on 6/9/79. Interestingly the Chronicles of Napier website lists 55005 as working the 1E10 10:45 Edinburgh - York (extended to King's Cross) with a 7 coach load of Mk 2 & 3 stock a couple of days later on 10/09. Could this be the same rake and train a few days earlier, and a temporary substitute for the normal stock?

 

Most of the Mk3a (and Mk3b BFO brakes) loco-hauled stock was on the WCML in the 80's. The London-Scottish stuff that I saw at Preston was predominantly Mk3 with Mk2 sets on Cross-Country workings such as Glasgow-Poole. Mk2's through Crewe would probably be the likes of Manchester-south coast/south-west workings.

I'm sure Natalie of this forum can provide definitive details and formations.

 

I have plenty lots of slides of (mainly) Crewe Diesel 47/4's on very regular weekend diversions with Mk3a formations [*] via the S&C

 

Cheers,

Mick

[*] with the previously commented Mk1 catering/brake and odd aircon Mk2's in the rake

I agree most of the Mk3a were hauled by WCML electrics. For a diesel, you're looking at The Clansman to/from Inverness (but were they still B/G when Mk3 were used?) and diversions via the S&C, plus perhaps North Wales coast services to Holyhead, or were these Mk2s? All were rostered for ETH Class 47s.

 

I remember one Saturday the morning Wolves - Poole arrived at Reading with a scratch set including a Mk3 buffet. This was fitted with long swing-link bogies so had to be removed and reattached to the return working, only short swing-link bogied Mk3s being permitted to work on third rail lines. In this respect, I seem to recall that when the scheduled HST service(s) into Waterloo (to connect with Eurostar) started, the WR had to change some set formations to create enough all short swing-link bogie sets to cover the diagrams including those services. I've no idea if this is still an issue.

[Gwiwer]

Mostly been covered already and I agree with much of what has been said. Most of the Mk3 WCML stock was used on the Liverpool / Manchester / Carlisle / Glasgow rosters simply because the EBW (Euston-Birmingham-Wolverhampton) sets based at Oxley were already late Mk2 stock while the earlier ones on other runs were replaced by the Mk3 stock. I seem to recall there was also an early restriction on Mk3 stock being berthed and serviced at Oxley perhaps because the positioning of water hoses wasn't suitable. I'm sure one of our subject matter experts will either confirm or refute that.

 

In b/g days the Mk3 stock was phased in as it became available and sometimes a Mk2 rake would contain the odd new Mk3. Later on the converse was true with brakes in particular being found from early Mk2 stock or a Mk1 BG. Catering was provided from Mk1 cars which suddenly seemed very inferior with no air-con, no double-glazing, no tinted windows and a somewhat less comfortable ride.

 

Traction would have been any of the 8x / 90 class electrics with occasional haulage as and when required by any eth-fitted diesel class.

 

The Edinburgh - Glasgow push-pull sets, with class 47/7 "shove-duff" traction, were unique in several ways. They contained the only Mk3 composites for example. They also strayed "off route" at times to Aberdeen and Perth from both Capitals though not AFAIK to Inverness that early. Mk3 stock in the Highlands in the b/g era was confined to the HST "Highland Chieftain" and the sleeping cars on the London and erstwhile Glasgow / Edinburgh services which ran with Mk2 sitters.

[Simon_R]

Anyone got any pics of BFO's?

[cunningduck]

I haven't, but theres some right underneath this linky.

[brushman47544]

Mk3 stock in the Highlands in the b/g era was confined to the HST "Highland Chieftain" and the sleeping cars on the London and erstwhile Glasgow / Edinburgh services which ran with Mk2 sitters.

I've seen a photo of a Blue/Grey rake of Mk3s on The Clansman in one of the Vernon Anderson pictorial books (Diesels in Scotland or Scottish Railways?), but the caption said that it unusual so presumably a late stock change rather than being diagrammed. It seems that Mk3s weren't diagrammed to the train until most if not all were in IC Executive livery. Still a precedent if you want one.

[eastwestdivide]

On the BFOs, there's a ton of info in the middle of this thread:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/37299-positive-future-for-the-london-cornwall-sleeper/page__st__50

 

and a photo of one at Manchester, behind a DVT, here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/8158-82134-manchester-piccadilly-24-07-1991jpg/

[Gwiwer]

I've seen a photo of a Blue/Grey rake of Mk3s on The Clansman

 

Late substitutions occur and unusual workings likewise. But the Clansman was exclusively a Mk2 diagram with Mk1 catering for the years I was familiar with it which included the transition into IC livery. Indeed it often seemed that the Clansman sets were the runt of the litter being formed of anything and everything which was lying around spare.

[Pennine MC]

There's always the odd exception:

 

http://www.flickr.co...57604142594351/

 

A Deltic at York with scottish mk3s.

 

My guess is these were after transfer but before the start of the push-pull services.

 

 

I can't remember when the E-G push-pull services with Mk3s started, but it may have been after this photo was taken on 6/9/79. Interestingly the Chronicles of Napier website lists 55005 as working the 1E10 10:45 Edinburgh - York (extended to King's Cross) with a 7 coach load of Mk 2 & 3 stock a couple of days later on 10/09. Could this be the same rake and train a few days earlier, and a temporary substitute for the normal stock?

 

 

John (Turner) and myself were discussing this shot on Saturday (it's on his Flickr site) and we agreed it's not a vanilla ECML service train in the accepted sense for various reasons. The train is heading North, it would be unusual for the first class section to not be at the London end. Also at that time Sc-allocated stock covered only ScR internal services, with very few exceptions, one being the Plymouth - Edinburgh service whose Mk2s acquired Sc prefixes when maintenance responsibility changed from Laira to Craigentinny.

 

Brushman's suggestion has merit, it could have been an expedient use of the stock before the p/p services started. Or it could just be ECS.

[Natalie]

I can't remember when the E-G push-pull services with Mk3s started, but it may have been after this photo was taken on 6/9/79. Interestingly the Chronicles of Napier website lists 55005 as working the 1E10 10:45 Edinburgh - York (extended to King's Cross) with a 7 coach load of Mk 2 & 3 stock a couple of days later on 10/09. Could this be the same rake and train a few days earlier, and a temporary substitute for the normal stock?

 

 

Is it possible that the service was was one of the temporary/emergency services introduced on the ECML following the collapse of Penmanshiel Tunnel on 17th March 1979? I seem to recall reading in Modern Railways at the time that new E&G sets were pressed into service on some of these workings.

 

Just a thought.

 

EDIT- As the replacement alignment bypassing the tunnel was opened on August 20th 1979 the above hypothesis is highly unlikely.

[Ian Fisher]

I wasnt aware that a 55 could provide the ETH for Mark 3 stock?

 

Ok that doesnt stop it hauling the train, but wouldnt make for a comfy ride in what looks hot conditons

 

Also much fruther up the list someone mentioned the rebogieing of 57' BG the WCML for these rakes had B4. Later when the timetable was upped to the 110mph they then had examples pooled on additional maintencne to allow for the higher speed, very few if any 57' BG with commonwealths made it onto the WCML rakes.

 

Ian

[eastwestdivide]

I wasnt aware that a 55 could provide the ETH for Mark 3 stock?

 

Well I thought that as well, but when I looked back at the coaching stock books for the period, there's no mention of ETH restrictions apart from some Mk2 air cons (Mk2e prohibited for class 55 in 1978 RCTS book, and for class 55 and 47401-420 in 1980 RCTS book).

[frobisher]

I wasnt aware that a 55 could provide the ETH for Mark 3 stock?

 

If a 47/7 could, then a 55 could as both were "after sale" refits done by BR. It's just a matter of making sure the load is within limits there (and the indices of the 55 and 44/7 are both 66).

[Edwin_m]

As posted by eastwestdivide 47400-420 and class 55s couldn not heat certain Mk2s. As these 47s were the original ETS batch with generators I guess it was something to do with that equipment needing AC on the ETH supply.

 

IIRC the coaches in question were all allocated to services where they wouldn't ever get near an Eastern Region loco - out of Paddington I think?

[Bomag]

For several reasons some of the motor alternator sets used in Mk2DEF would not work with a varying voltage and trip below 800v.

 

Where the ETH voltage produced by the loco was proportional to the engine output, including Cl55, then ETH bus voltage constantly varies which would trip out the offending M/A sets. I would assume that only the M/A sets from Stones AC fitted carriages were originally affected but that after the demise of the offending locos in the 80's there was not the need to limit the distribution of the M/A sets so some of the MK2F coaches had them - I was informed that some of the reliability issues with Virgin using Cl55 on the Ramsgate service was that the M/A set spiked the ETH. AFAIK they had a couple of dedicated sets with the offending M/A sets swapped.

 

Since the Mk3a A/C equipment was based on the later Mk2F equipment then there should be no reason why a Deltic could not power Mk3a's ETH systems.

 

In addition to the quoted uses I believe that deltics were used with spare push pull sets in 1980 or 81 on summer excursions to Oban.

[eastwestdivide]

Thanks for the tech details on the aircon.

 

In addition to the quoted uses I believe that deltics were used with spare push pull sets in 1980 or 81 on summer excursions to Oban.

photos here:

http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/21_2-8-81.htm

and

http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/21_23-8-81.htm

and on the old forum

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=42739