Is Overseas Modelling Interest Declining?

[Supaned]

I'm not arguing against the point that European modelling might be in decline compared to overall interest in model railways or when specifically compared to british outline, but one point that might spurn a resurgence could be from UK based enthusiasts who are disillusioned with the prototype scene here and travel to the continent for regular track or loco bashing trips, and recreate what they've seen in model form.

 

Yes , that's what started me off with modelling foreign parts. The problems are that as the prototype becomes less appealing as more Units appear , thus the impetus to model diminishes , but more so with the ever increasing costs , especially with European outline locos and stock.

 

I've been to and seen lots of "modellable" places , but in a lot of cases , there are no models of the prototypes available , even with the saturation coverage we have nowadays.

 

To a lesser extent , US modelling suffers in the same way. For many from the UK , their first port of call and likely contact with US railroads will be either in the New York area , or in Florida , but even then you'll struggle to find a decent model of NJT trains that whisk you from Newark Airport into Midtown.

 

I don't mind paying a bit more for a decent model , but in some cases the price seems excessive for what is only an average product.

[GreenDiesel]

 

Oh yes, any UK retailer worth its salt is VAT Registered and will deduct VAT at source. Remember, prices quoted in the UK are inclusive of VAT. Hatton's even has a currency converter so you can see their price in CDN$. I have come across the occasional vendor (usually the small ones) that are not VAT registered so if you buy from them you will have to pay the VAT.

 

Just for fun, I checked the site and there was Mallard (R2339) listed at $181 (but you need to take 20% off that). This comes to $145 before shipping. That is pretty much the top end of steam locos. R2805X "Herring Gull" is fitted with sound and costs $292 (VAT incl).

 

John

 

Thanks, John. I also emailed Rails of Sheffield today and they confirmed that they too will take VAT off. So this is great news. I did some online shopping today and, if I'm doing my math right, it's much cheaper to buy British outline models from Hattons or Rails than to buy from a British railway dealer based in Canada. If I were to buy from one here in Canada, the prices still seem higher, plus I'd have to pay 13% HST.

 

Rob

[GreenDiesel]

 

Can I be a tedious pedant and point out that VAT is 20% of the pre-VAT price, so Hattons would remove just under 17% of the sale price?

 

Thanks for pointing that out. It makes sense. Rob

[Gene]

Green Diesel...if you buy from the UK outline dealers in BC you won't have to pay HST anymore

[Wolfy]

 

It is your absolute right to be a tedious pedant. It is my right to say "whatever".

 

Cheers

 

John

 

That seems fair

[gc4946]

Although I'm a predominantly UK modeller, I also read Model Rail International and at one time bought German and Japanese N gauge stock, now sold, as they ran better than what was then on offer for British prototypes.

 

Although price is an issue nowadays, the main constraint nowadays are the short production runs and difficulty of getting hold of them unless one knows where to go to buy them.

I can imagine the situation, someone who's only modelled the UK prototype goes on holiday, maybe doing loco-bashing, or just visting, seeing how different overseas prototypes look, then wanting something to remind them of what they saw when they arrive home or in a shop abroad, only to find it's not available in the shops or online, or if available, at a hugely inflated price! Gets frustrated, returns to UK modelling, another potential overseas modelling convert lost.

 

Also, more people are visting the third world nowadays and apart from China (Bachmann China), South Africa (Lima) and Brazil (Frateschi) there's virtually nothing else available, the only models available for the Indian subcontinent are narrow gauge kits, no broad gauge prototypes.

[edcayton]

I think that a part of it may be that UK prototype railways are much more attractive now that they were in the blue" period. I know that many on here like that period, but to my mind the whole railway scene was one of gloom and desolation.

 

When we first went to the European mainand what really struck me was that it looked as though someone CARED about the railway. I know there is not a wide variety of stock on BR, but the stations are mostly smart clean and tidy, as are the trains. The lack of variety is to some extent made up for by the huge variety of liveries.

 

Ed

[gc4946]

I can imagine the situation, someone who's only modelled the UK prototype goes on holiday, maybe doing loco-bashing, or just visting, seeing how different overseas prototypes look, then wanting something to remind them of what they saw when they arrive home or in a shop abroad, only to find it's not available in the shops or online, or if available, at a hugely inflated price! Gets frustrated, returns to UK modelling, another potential overseas modelling convert lost.

 

 

One of the ways people are enticed into overseas modelling is buying a model of something they've actually travelled on or behind at the time of their visit or very shortly afterwards. There's often only a short time window between their first favourable impression and capturing their attention for a change to be made.

I went to the Sydney Olympics in 2000 and had really wanted a model of the Sydney double decker trains which I travelled on a fair deal, but was told in several stores none were available. However in the end I bought from various shops, a Powerline NSW class 81 diesel and five wagons (four Powerline, one AR Kits)

On my return from down under, I searched the net and found someone did make a HO scale kit of the Tangara d/d EMUs but it would have cost about £200 at the then exchange rates before any import duties, etc so I gave up.

I couldn't see myself changing over to modelling Aussie prototypes but had a double decker train actually been available for sale at the time when I was down under I would have almost certainly bought one.

[Pacific231G]

I didn't actually know that Model Rail International had reappeared but we still have a news stand magazine devoted to overseas railway modelling in Continental Modeller so there's clearly a large enough market for that. It's interesting that Britain seems to be the only country where the mainstream model railway magazine market divides on the nationality of railways. Elsewhere it seems to be narrow gauge that supports non mainstream magazines. In France both LocoRevue (mainstream) and particularly Voie Libre (NG and light railway) often include British and American and other "foreign" layouts. I don't know though whether this reflects greater intolerance by the average British modeller of anything "alien" so they don't want them at all in the magazines they buy or conversely that Britain is the only country where enough modellers are interested in non-domestic railways to support a specialist magazine. Quite possibly a bit of both though I think we are the only country with specialist societies devoted to overseas railways (apart possibly from local chapters of the NMRA)

 

So far as I can tell, the level of interest in Britain in overseas railways runs 1. USA

2. Swiss 3. German 4. French 5. Italian followed by a number of others.

 

I'm not aware that the specialist societies catering for the more seriously interested in particular overseas railways are getting much smaller and some of them were formed relatively recently. What may have changed is that improvements in the running quality of British outline models now makes them more attractive to people who just want to run trains rather than seriously modelling a prototype railway. In the past more of these would have turned to the likes of Fleischmann or Roco because they looked good and ran well even though they had no particular interest in German or Swiss railways.

 

David

 

 

 

 

[GreenDiesel]

Green Diesel...if you buy from the UK outline dealers in BC you won't have to pay HST anymore

 

Another good point -- thanks for reminding me! I just read about that on the weekend. Not sure if the same thing will happen in Ontario. 13% is a pretty hefty amount. Thanks, Rob

[steve1]

It's interesting that Britain seems to be the only country where the mainstream model railway magazine market divides on the nationality of railways.

 

How many non-USA layouts appear in US mags? I can only remember one in Railroader and even that was modelled in "US Basement style". Are there any USA-published titles that cover non-US outline?

 

steve

[HeavyDuty]

 

 

One of the ways people are enticed into overseas modelling is buying a model of something they've actually travelled on or behind at the time of their visit or very shortly afterwards. There's often only a short time window between their first favourable impression and capturing their attention for a change to be made.

I went to the Sydney Olympics in 2000 and had really wanted a model of the Sydney double decker trains which I travelled on a fair deal, but was told in several stores none were available. However in the end I bought from various shops, a Powerline NSW class 81 diesel and five wagons (four Powerline, one AR Kits)

On my return from down under, I searched the net and found someone did make a HO scale kit of the Tangara d/d EMUs but it would have cost about £200 at the then exchange rates before any import duties, etc so I gave up.

I couldn't see myself changing over to modelling Aussie prototypes but had a double decker train actually been available for sale at the time when I was down under I would have almost certainly bought one.

 

This is very true in my case. I've travelled to the UK twice - in 1975 and again in 1999 - and my interests revolve around what I saw at that time.

 

 

 

How many non-USA layouts appear in US mags? I can only remember one in Railroader and even that was modelled in "US Basement style". Are there any USA-published titles that cover non-US outline?

 

steve

 

The occasional non-US prototype layout will appear in Model Railroader, but it's uncommon. Trains does cover worldwide on occasion, but again it is infrequent.

[swisspeat]

Some of the German magazines feature US layouts from time to time. French ones do too. Recently I think it was Eisenbahn Kurier ran a North American Special magazine. And very very rarely do they feature any other country apart from German layouts.

 

Model Railroader featured a GWR layout layout last year I think as built by a modeller in the US. They have also included a Swedish layout and the large Hamburg mega layout a few times.

 

Model Trains International magazine has featured overseas layouts lots of times.

 

Regards,

 

swisspeat

[brossard]

 

Another good point -- thanks for reminding me! I just read about that on the weekend. Not sure if the same thing will happen in Ontario. 13% is a pretty hefty amount. Thanks, Rob

 

One other point and I mentioned it earlier - it is rare for me to have to pay GST on things coming in from UK. Occasionally I get busted but more usually the parcel comes straight to my door.

 

John

[gc4946]

My Aussie models were bought more as souvenirs from a part of the world where I can't foresee travelling there for quite some time yet.

Because I went there at a special time in 2000 for the Olympics, I've hung onto them as mementoes unlike virtually all of my European model purchases which I bought here in the UK, which in many cases have been subsequently sold due to lack of interest in the prototype on the one hand, and because of improved models of UK prototypes coming onstream.

 

Incidentally, until 1979 the Railway Modeller also published articles, which gradually during the 70s became less frequent, on non-British Isles prototypes. I guess Peco thought there were enough quality articles submitted to them over the years that didn't get published due to lack of space in the Railway Modeller, to justify launching Continental Modeller.

The defunct Model Railway Constructor also regularly featured prototype articles and layouts on non-UK topics.

[Fenway Park]

I was always of the opinion that MRI was published deliberately earlier than Continental Modeller to be "first" with the news. Apart from this the other content appeared biased towards the Editor's own specialist area. Andy Burnham has tried to widen the area that CM covers as has Model Railroader.

A short term experiment has failed.

The cost of overseas models has not helped as well.

In a recent edition of CM there was a superb Rhb layout but none of the locos had their pantographs raised although the catenary was from Sommerfeldt but the most poignant statement was that the author had had to re motor the BEMO locos as their running left something to the desired. BEMO are not cheap even in their original state.

 

Although costs are higher than the UK if you want to model abroad then you have to accept the fluctuating exchange rates. I model Japanese N gauge and as the Yen is very strong against the pound my purchases have been reduced but the products are still better than Dapol and Farish but the competition is catching up rapidly.

[GreenDiesel]

Although costs are higher than the UK if you want to model abroad then you have to accept the fluctuating exchange rates. I model Japanese N gauge and as the Yen is very strong against the pound my purchases have been reduced but the products are still better than Dapol and Farish but the competition is catching up rapidly.

 

 

I've ordered a few small items from eBay from the UK and have never had to pay HST or duty, etc. I've ordered 3 small locos from eBay & never had to pay duty/tax, so hopefully this will continue! Thanks, Rob

[grahame]

 

Some of the German magazines feature US layouts from time to time. French ones do too.

 

I've even seen a British outline N gauge layout in a French mag.

 

 

Model Trains International magazine has featured overseas layouts lots of times.

 

I guess the clue is in the title.

 

G.

[Glorious NSE]

Going back to the OP, I don't know enough to have an opinion on European prototypes but I too agree that the North American sector is maybe slowly increasing, the reasons why I think have changed over the years.

 

Going back 15 years or so the unique selling points of US stuff were:

1. Quality difference to UK RTR (which was *vast* for a time)

2. Price (Often lower than UK prices with higher quality levels)

3. Pretty colours

4. If you did it wrong nobody would know the difference anyhow...

 

Prototype interests I don't think featured largely (except maybe for high profile things like Big Boys) - "the prototype" was something you *might* find out about later on, and I suspect most folk started to look at the prototype to come up with a way to use the stuff they had already bought rather than through any real "connection" to the real thing.

 

I think these days we have a more 'aware' modelling population, we are a more travelled population too - there is far more emphasis on the real thing in the modelling these days.

 

YouTube has increased the profile of US railroading to even the average UK modeller (i'm sure most will have watched the 'train vs tornado' vid for example)

Google Streetview, Bing maps, have made researching how the real thing looks vastly simpler, and I would suggest have made getting a good impression of the real US available to anyone who hasn't been there for the first time.

The likes of yahoo groups have made researching even fairly obscure things vastly easier.

The likes of forums have allowed more idea and modelling sharing.

 

I think modern outline North American modelling also manages to be more accessible/acheivable than doing the same for the UK. I love the modern prototype UK scene but with us having increasingly a railway dominated by fixed formation passenger trains and unitised freights there is little scope for modelling a mixed freight, and if you wanted to shunt that you'd need to be modelling a large yard.

Modelling the modern UK railway on a large-ish layout is quite attractive to me, I think modelling the modern UK scene plausibly on a small layout is increasingly hard unless you go to the extremes of modelling an SLT.

Contrast with the US and you can build a small layout almost in the old UK branchline terminus theme, have a shortline switcher or two, have two or three industries that need serving, do almost everything with relatively user-friendly equipment *and* build it in an up-to-the-minute modern environment and still be perfectly plausible...that's a huge selling point to many I think!

[Western Scottish]

So Model rail international hasn't received enough interest to justify further editions and this is leading to the assumption that interest in overseas models is declining?

 

I'm not sure that it isn't just that Overseas based magazines are trying to appeal to too wide a base. British mags ,of course look at British models. While this can be very varied NG, tramways etc, it is still relatively narrow compared to an International magazine which has models from Europe,USA, Asia, Africa.

 

I'm primarily interested in British Railways but also have an interest in Swiss and German models. I don't buy overseas mags such as Model Rail International and Continental Modeller because the content is much too varied. Possibly there is only one article of interest to me. US modellers I think would tend to Model Railroader, which seems to be reasonably popular and is obviously US centric. For Europe there is not really much around that is specific enough for me.

[GreenDiesel]

One other point and I mentioned it earlier - it is rare for me to have to pay GST on things coming in from UK. Occasionally I get busted but more usually the parcel comes straight to my door.

John

 

Thanks, John. I've done some online shopping & crunched some numbers and, overall, it seems cheaper to buy from Hattons or Rails of Sheffield, than it does to buy from Ontario or even BC. I've bought locos or model stuff from eBay without problems but nothing major, yet, from Hattons or Rails. (Apologies to the OP for getting slightly off-topic here!). Rob

[HSB]

Actually MRI was originally a supplement in Model Rail.

Back in the days when dinosaurs walked the Earth most of my modeller friends turned to European H0 modelling mainly because of the poor quality of 00 models (several have since returned to modelling British out-line but in 0 Scale!). I turned to American N which I could buy from my local model shop. Very few shops these days seem to stock European or US items and European models in particular are now extremely expensive. I suspect many modellers have been attracted back to British 4mm and N by the dramatic improvements in recent years. Certainly, there doesn't seem to be as many overseas layouts at exhibitions these days.

[F-UnitMad]

My 2p-worth...

 

Agree with much of what Glorious NSE says; one big attraction of the US Scene is that freelance railroading is done in real life on Short Lines, and gives a perfect "Prototype for Anything" excuse for modellers to do the same.

 

The quality of British 4mm and 2mm models has come up right out of the Stone Age in recent years, and about time, but personally, until the couplers catch up, I have no desire to return to UK outline in either scale. Instead I've done a bit of UK stuff in 7mm (as have others it seems) where I've come up against the issue of cost, unfortunately. US outline O scale has worked out rather cheaper than British models, and like the lads in Canada buying cheaper in the UK, for me buying from the US has also worked out cheaper quite often in the past.

 

There may well be a difference between "Interest" and actual "Modelling" of Overseas stuff; I'm interested in Dutch railways, following a holiday there some years ago; but I know I'll never make a Dutch layout for three reasons - Cost of models, lack of space, and the Language Barrier.

I never buy CM for any Continental layouts, though, and only rarely when there's US stuff in it, either, as the price of a whole mag for just one article means that layout has got to be good!!

[Bristol_Rich]

Interesting that when we say 'overseas' the only countries the forum majority refer to are German, Swiss, Japanese and US prototype. Whilst I understand there is an element of 'whats available', there are however other countries out there with interesting railways and a modelling market behind them that supports modellers, and not always as expensive as you would think.

 

I recent took a break from British and have gone Swedish. Only through the choice of scale has it dictated lack of availability of stock etc, however in HO and N there are a number of suppliers supplying a whole range of stuff. Ref the language barrier, what with the internet, translation tools and people wanting to try their English I've not yet come across a problem...I dont speak Swedish but most Forums will allow you to post in English and translation of docs is easy enough.

 

It has crossed my mind though if there is a bit of if aint "German, US or Japanese then I wont look at it' snobbery(wrong word?).

[HSB]

Interesting that when we say 'overseas' the only countries the forum majority refer to are German, Swiss, Japanese and US prototype. Whilst I understand there is an element of 'whats available', there are however other countries out there with interesting railways and a modelling market behind them that supports modellers, and not always as expensive as you would think.

 

I recent took a break from British and have gone Swedish. Only through the choice of scale has it dictated lack of availability of stock etc, however in HO and N there are a number of suppliers supplying a whole range of stuff. Ref the language barrier, what with the internet, translation tools and people wanting to try their English I've not yet come across a problem...I dont speak Swedish but most Forums will allow you to post in English and translation of docs is easy enough.

 

It has crossed my mind though if there is a bit of if aint "German, US or Japanese then I wont look at it' snobbery(wrong word?).

I think the emphasis on US, Germanic and Japanese railways is simply because they are the most easily obtainable in the UK in RTR form although Bachmann also offer some Chinese models and Frateschi Brazilian H0 models were imported for a while (unfortunately, the scaling on these is a bit iffy with metre gauge prototypes made to match the size of US standard gauge!). There are also the Spanish models by Electrotren (now part of Hornby International).

I have modelled New Zealand Railways for a few years but the prices have now gone through the roof partly due to the value of the New Zealand Dollar having doubled against the Pound over the last 20 years! I am now concentrating on British modelling in various scales.