Should DCC sound favour Prototypical or Pleasing?

[pauliebanger]

Hi Everyone,

 

There's no right answer to this one, just let us have your opinion.

 

When you watch a 'Hollywood' car chase, and the tyres squeal when they are running on sand/gravel/dirt/grass, do you think:

 

A) These are rubbish sound effects, everyone knows tyres do not squeal on sand?

or

B)Wow, that car is really travelling fast, listen to how much the tyres are squealing?

 

To bring this back to DCC sound.

 

Would you prefer authentic sounds even if they are not very 'pleasant'? Or would you favour a substitute sound that is either easier on the ear, or something that evokes something for you?

 

For example, I love Stanier Black 5s, but most of their whistles I've recorded, whilst authentic, sound flat and lifeless and do not suit my idea of the loco's character. But I do have some lovely Princess Coronation whistles, though. See the dilema?

 

Or as recently said to me ''that Class 47 horn is pathetic''. The horn on the prototype was indeed, in my view, somewhat less than tuneful, but the sound was accurately reproduced in the model.

 

What's your view? What do you want from a sound project? How much choice would you like?

 

Paul

[Matador]

I agree entirely. I made a post a few weeks ago, about the Black 5 whistle, and was told that the whistles on preserved Steam Locos are not necessarily what was on the Loco originally. I live in the US, and the sound of an American Steam whistle or a Diesel horn is music to the ears, listen to a few YOUTUBE videos. When I got back into Birtish Modelling and my son heard a British Diesel horn for the first time he nearly fell off his chair laughing i think his description was flatter than a F### under a pancake. On a Soundtraxx Tsunami you are given a multiple choice of Steam whistles or Diesel horns, and it allows you to use what is music to your ears. If an alternate whistle or horn could be added as an alternative that would be great.

Please don't think that any of the above is meant to put down British Locomotives, it is an observation and answer to a question

David

A Brit in the USA

[big jim]

i think there has got to be a compromise really, i mean its all very well being prototypical but would yiu sit for 2 mins while a triple pump on a sound chipped 47 does its stuff before you could start it, likewise a class 20, on the real thing you have to hold the start button for 2 mins before they fire up!!

 

i know there are a lot of generic aux sounds on various chips from different suppliers such as coupling and buffer clash etc and it is nice to try and get them prototypical if only to get a bit of variety in sounds, for example my howes 66s are different one is low emission the other not, the engine sounds themselves are the same but the aux sounds are different such as the horns, start up claxen, buffer clash, coupling sound etc, all recorded from actual class 66s, in fact they are recorded on the autual locos that are modelled (66705 and 66301)

 

i know bryan, and im sure he wont mind me saying it, does add little bits to loco sounds to get them to sound more prototypical AND pleasing, one in particular, not sure which loco though, has a tweaked turbo whine off a class 56 added for when it gets up to speed as he could not replicate it when recording the actual loco due to preserved line speeds etc but listening/viewing archive footage the sound was present so he added it, and no one has noticed or commented on it!!

 

[PaulRhB]

Many discussions on here have proved we all hear or remember them differently anyway so perception of the models sound will also vary in the same way. We tend to remember the occasion that caught our imagination when it was probably being thrashed hard too rather than just pootling around a yard.

Another thing I've noticed particularly in large scales is the number of steam locos that only appear to have one cylinder! 2 instead of 4 chuffs per revolution, LGB used that as default although you can alter it using cv's because it sounded better! What it really shows is that we often run our locos much faster than real speeds so four chuffs ended up as a continuous roar.

I like the fact we have Swd, Howes and others so by watching YouTube clips we can pick the one that is closest to our memories. For my british NG largescale locos I use German NG sound files with a different more UK typical whistle, it's not 100% accurate but sounds good to me and better than using a UK mainline sound file.

[Jim]

Hi,

On the back of an earlier thread, I have a Jinty with Howes sound but I really like the Howes GW pannier project which has been recorded from a pannier on the South Devon Rly. I'm seriously thinking of getting the Jinty reblown with it.

To me, I wouldn't know the difference because im not too knowledgeable on specific steam sound but someone else would, it's my loco so does it matter? On the other hand, I wouldn't put a Howes class 24 into a class 25

because they, to me, do sound subtly different in reality and I know my diesel sounds. Even though the Howes 24 is a much sweeter sound than the 25 I just couldnt live with it. Could I live with a Jinty knowing that it's a pannier I'm listing to?

difficult.

Jim

[Marty Mc]

Hi

Personally I believe most want prototypical sounds but where can you get 1 prototypical sound for a steam loco these days with the exception of Tornado? If you want prototypical you got to take it from old footage as the steamers running these day have being rebuilt modern packing in the cylinder heads, rebuild with slightly different materials.

For most of my old 3.5 sound files they come from old footage so I consider them more prototypical for the era but not for today.

 

I now think the right answer is pleasing and use the sounds from what's here and now not 40+ years ago.

 

m

[pauliebanger]

Hi,

On the back of an earlier thread, I have a Jinty with Howes sound but I really like the Howes GW pannier project which has been recorded from a pannier on the South Devon Rly. I'm seriously thinking of getting the Jinty reblown with it.

To me, I wouldn't know the difference because im not too knowledgeable on specific steam sound but someone else would, it's my loco so does it matter? On the other hand, I wouldn't put a Howes class 24 into a class 25

because they, to me, do sound subtly different in reality and I know my diesel sounds. Even though the Howes 24 is a much sweeter sound than the 25 I just couldnt live with it. Could I live with a Jinty knowing that it's a pannier I'm listing to?

difficult.

Jim

 

Jim,

 

Ha, the dilema in a nutshell. Mind you, I was not thinking of substitution of a whole different class.

 

Who could live with such a thing?

 

This might amuse you!

 

 

The sound is from my Class 26 project, but I did not have a sound- chipped 26 at the time and someone asked to hear it, so.... Ha ha

 

Now, if that made you cringe, why would you put a GWR pannier sound into a innocent Jinty? (It might be your 'secret', but you would always know!!)

 

Maybe listen to a different version of a Jinty sound file as an alternative?

 

Just stirrin'

 

Paul

[SRman]

I like the sound of that 37 ... I mean 26 ... errr! Wait; 37 + 26 = 63 : I like the sound of that class 63.

 

Seriously, the 26 sounds are good.

[pauliebanger]

I like the sound of that 37 ... I mean 26 ... errr! Wait; 37 + 26 = 63 : I like the sound of that class 63.

 

Seriously, the 26 sounds are good.

 

 

Class 63. Ha ha, nice one.

 

Thanks for the positive on the sounds. I thought about not saying what it the sound was from and setting a little quiz, but I thought that would steer the thread away from my original questions.

 

(These Class 26 sounds are available preloaded on Zimo decoders from www.digitrains.co.uk Specify the Manual Notching version to get the control shown in the clip).

 

Paul.

[Jim]

Excellent vid! Me too, I was trying to guess the sound!

Someone who didn't know their engines wouldn't worry but........ It's the guilty knowledge that would slowly eat you away!!

Jim

[NoggintheNog]

Well, as someone who once ran a US diesel F7 unit wit the sounds of a gas turbine loco in it for a while to see how good the sound project was whilst deciding what chip to buy to go with the gas turbine engine I had on order, I have to say , my main focus is totally on whats appealing.

 

Indeed, its also why I model US outline, with a father who worked for BR , and latterly mainline, for 45 years before he retired, the obsession with getting everything right with UK stuff ruined the hobby for me for a while, so now I run an approximation of the union Pacific, I dont care if its not accurate, I enjoy the models I have , and I know no better anyway.

 

Its the same with the sound, I use mainly soundtraxx tsunami and QSI revolutions, the soundtraxx are, from my understanding, often more accurate renditions, however, I do prefer the revolution sounds, I also use whatever horns sound most pleasing to me (both style of chips you can choose from a dozen or more horn sounds), I neither know nor care what type of horn the real engines of a given class used, just as long as I have things I enjoy.

[Nile_Griffith]

From my own point of view, you run sound as an entertainment. Unless someone has managed to magically re-organise physics, it is still impossible to scale sound.

 

It's been commented that various audio samples of Steam Loco's are taken from archive film. So immediately the recording that was made presents a non accurate sound. Why? The tone of the recorded sound will have been altered in some way by the microphones used to capture the original sound and also the medium to which it was recorded. In the case of film, certainly from the 50's and 60's. Those recording microphones would possibly have been, at best. Dynamic ribbon microphones or at worst, during the back end of the 60's. Electret microphones with very limited frequency response. Consider also that this was in turn recorded to magnetically striped film stock another stage and another layer of noise and degradation in the audio (and possibly duplicated across to optical track film stock before being archived on to some form of videotape). This therefore implies that the audio sourced from such recordings has a limited dynamic range and prototypical accuracy.

 

Even the recording of modern day loco's is beset with problems. Where do you place the microphone? As I have mentioned in other topics. You view your layout from a God like position above it all, at a scale distance of a couple of hundred feet. Sound changes dramatically when travelling over such distances. High frequency information reduces, as it lacks the energy to travel far, whereas low frequency information with it's extra energy goes a little further. So more often or not you are at the side of your layout looking with your eagle like perspective, but listening to a sound that makes the assumption you are standing next to the loco on the platform or wherever.

 

The movement of your model loco, at whatever speed you choose. Will not be able to re-create the doppler shift that sound sources experience when travelling to or from the listener. You model Loco passing through your well crafted station will not alter in tone as in the real world as your modelled station does not have the necessary physics to alter and modify the sound waves emanating from your loco.

 

It is also important to remember that when listening to sound out in the great wide world our brains coupled with our stereoscopic hearing, are very good at filtering out sound information that our brain doesn't need. Unfortunately microphones and even todays high end recording equipment haven't quite mastered that trick yet.

 

Unfortunately DCC sound will always just be an entertainment. Prototypical extends only as far as the source of the original audio and not how it finally emanates from the model loco itself.

 

As a light hearted aside. Many years ago I used to earn a crust dubbing films and video in studio's such as Molinaires and John Woods down in London's Soho. Although pretty much 75% of your average movie blockbusters sound is re-dubbed back in the studio (dialogue as well). Foley and sound effects are used to re-enforce the image, rather than be a true and accurate representation of what would have been actually heard. There where however, certain sound effects that we did refer to particular reference material for. Amongst the rather well stocked sound FX libraries where various CD's containing sound effects taken from a multitude of weapons of destruction. Whether they be hand guns or big hefty field guns. Every Disc had a book containing pictures of the appropriate armament to suit the audio on the CD. The audio recordings being categorised as, immediate, close, middle distant and distant. So as a dubbing engineer. I could look at a still on the film, cross reference the 9mm Glock that the bad guy had in his hand with the one in the book and select the appropriate sound effect. Why? Because there are people out there who will let you know when you got it wrong. That said. there where quite a few times where directorial'y, It was considered creative licence to use a sound effect from a much bigger gun because the prototypical one sounded a bit whimpy.

[legomanbiffo]

When modelling I feel it's more important to capture the feel of something even if it's not 100% accurate and I think the same is true for sound. It's important for a loco to sound 'right', or how we (perhaps sometimes nostalgically) remember it. I agree with the comments regarding start-ups; no-one wants to wait two minutes for their loco to prime. I do tend to make them a little longer than most to hint at how long they really are, but not to the point where people might get bored.

 

I have swithered in the past whether to include 'pre-start' sounds such as the battery isolator switch, AWS or NRN sounds prior to the actual start-up. Technology has solved that dilemma for me; with v4 I've put these onto a separate function key so the user can play them if he wants but if not he can go straight for a normal start using F1. Indeed the possibilities opened up by v4 has thrown up lots of questions like these surrounding what people might want from a sound chip. An update to the Zimo software can't be far away either so now is a good time to say what you'd like to see.

 

A similar issue is that of 'automated' sounds, which Michel raised on one of the forums. It wasn't something I'd thought about before but his view was that some features like compressors, cooling fans etc should be automated so that the user doesn't have to think about operating them, they just work like the prototype. This is entirely possible now so I'm interested to hear what people think. Do you want automatic cooler group fans on your HST or 66, do you want them under manual control or do you want both?!

 

Bif

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I think in most respects I prefer entertainment over prototype but the loco has to sound right as Bif has said. In steam that is really getting the chuff rate and the whistle right. One can then add sound effects that may be right for that prototype. I have added a generator to my West Country but it isn't prototypical as the full start to stop sound recording is well over two minutes so it had to be accelerated in a sound editor. Lovely as well to link it to the lights. Something for the future.

 

Diesels are different. My only experience of constructing a diesel project from scratch is a Class 3. The usable recordings include the air hisses on gear changes which are inaudible on the real thing. I left them in and i think it adds a lot to the performance.

 

This started from rod clank and i think we have all made the mistake of putting in the loudest clank we could find only to find that it sounds wrong in the model. It has to be said that we didn't have much idea how to use this coasting facility for a long time. Their is / was little help from the manufacturers on this point but my CT decoders could coast silently from day one. It took me a lot of careful experimentation to discover how to get the loco to coast with an ESU decoder and, because they have transition files which the CT doesn't, they give a better performance.

 

The death of sound decoders is if they all sound the same so if you have two Class 37's or even two Black 5's on your layout, sound equipped, you will want them to be slightly different in the sounds themselves even if the delivery is the same.

 

Both Zimo and ESU seem to be heading for the area where you ( or they; another thread there! ) can load lots of sounds and either you or the decoder can select them as you drive it.

 

Be aware though that on a busy layout with three sound locos on the go, automation is vastly better than button pushing. If you make the sound decoder too gimmicky it will end up in unused by Boxing Day.

[GraemeWatson]

Interesting topic. Especially with regard to the sentinel sound on a companion thread.

I must say I like a bit of entertainment with my DCC sound, especially diesel locos which you can run anywhere between idle and thrash and the subtleties in between. Entertainment is assured by the main independent sound project suppliers; there is a world of difference between the original Bachmann sound Class 20, and the digitrains product (no connection, satisfied customer).

With regard to not matching prototype, I have done this on a few occasions. Digitrains Hymek into Class 22, and Class 50 into LMS 10000. My rationale was that these two projects, having been recorded on existing engines, offer all the benefits of a sound project with full features; excellent throttle control and load simulation. In my opinion, I didnt think archival recordings of a 22 or 10000 could match the operational pleasure or entertainment value as the options I took. A 22 is a small hydraulic, and a 50 shares some basic pedigree with 10000; I'll never hear a 'real' 22 or 10000, but I sure do get a lot of pleasure from running them according to Rule 1!

Sentinel? For those of us with CV writing capabilities, a prototypical 'dull' or none prototypical 'thrash worthy' selectable sound set I'm sure, would be welcomed.

As an aside,how many of us exclude locos from our sound fleet because we find they sound uninspiring next to other classes?

[10000]

Entertainment and a sound that please's you. I tried Digitrax and found the sound to be poor so I went to Soundtrax tsunami's, a much better sound. Then adjust it to the way I like. 

I'm never going to get the sound like it is when you are stood next to the tracks and a pair of diesels like AC4400's or C44-9w go past at 10-15mph with a heavy freight train behind so I'll have something I like instead.

[Mike Riley]

Paul, today I installed a Zimo 645 in a Manor.  Loaded with your 2MT project.  Why?  Because I like that project, especially the coasting with a slight wheeze and subtle rod clank.  I can go to a preserved railway and listen to a steam loco - by the time I get home I have forgotten exactly what it sounded like.

 

Keep up the good work,

 

Mike

[The Black Hat]

Interesting that this thread has come back to life having been dormant for two years....

 

I think you can have both. Find it prototypical and pleasing, but that the factors to consider are a little more varied that what has been mentioned so far. It would be interesting for Biffo and others to return and see if developments since their comments have altered perceptions on this issue.

 

I think the pleasing part of DCC Sound is that it can be fun and certainly adds a dimension to the hobby, whether that be you playing at home, or a layout at an Exhibition. The first part, as others have mentioned is to concerntrate on the sound. Clearly the sound to be accurate has to come from the right engine, but details here add to greater authenticity. I know Bryan at Howes works out the correct wheel revolution to chuff rate on engines and factors that into programming. You can clearly see it on some Hornby releases where the wheels turn slower than the chuff rate. Its one way of working out whos sound is in. For some it doesnt matter, but later with speed its again noticable. For diesels, its the whole thrash factor. Just how soon the engine opens up after departure, how fast it takes off. On some layout and with some decoders, nothing happens much like a prototype, but if your layout is shorter you need to change those settings and get more from the decoder for the entertainment. I actually went the other way, and made the layout bigger! Now its a monster and harder to move! Altering settings if you can solves this, but working through CVs and numbers for some isnt easy, not is it when your programmer, or dcc station, doesnt show it all clearly.

 

Sound I think is good. Added with lights its brought a sense of realism that ignited interest and imagination in the hobby. The next issue is operation. Having sound functions is all well and good, but its the operator controlling the engine with the chip that makes best use of the sounds in the engine. Driving like the real thing matters a great deal if you want to watch the engine move off like the real ones do. For me, this is where DCC sound becomes unstuck and Ive seen layouts at exhibtiions where sounds having been used well, nor has driving been accurate to get the best performance for the watching public. If your doing this at home and your happy then thats fine, but its also getting the things right.

 

The other difference is the sound companies themselves. Some are making a brilliant reputation out of this, and many people are loyal to what they know and what they prefer. I love Howes decoders, and have bought some biffo ones recently to make sure my engines sound differently. I know it would be harder for some people programming, but having a selection of sounds tweaked like a whistle, tone of engine note might be good for the same class. So like a Black 5, but version A, B, and C to give a balanced fleet all not sounding the same. The other ones are SWD, which Bachmann themselves use and as a result I have some of their stuff on Bachmann engines. The class 57, 66 are ones Im impressed with. Other companies are out there, but these seem to be the main ones. Smaller ones add variety but you sometimes take a chance over authenticy and accuracy of the recordings and their adaption onto the chip. Im pleased with what I have, but personally chose to avoid others - Olivias being one. But thats again down to preference and others like them.

 

Sounds like wheel flange, track groaning, buffers clashing are becoming common features. Notching seems to be going as people like driving conventionally and the sounds matching how acceleration is given, etc. At least I think so anyway. But you need the wheel flange over the point or on the curve, not when past the junction or leaving the bend. Sounds here add the dimension of realism and make opperation so much more accurate. You watch a model at an exhibition and you want it to be accuarate, you want to see something prototypical happen. I know some sounds like door buzzers might not travel as far, but that gives the entertainment factor to the people when they listen not knowing what is happening next.  

 

DCC sound is good, its great so much control it gives and how it can be accuarate. It needs to be done properly and thats where the difference between accuracy, fun, pleasing and playing for some of us lies.