Bachmann LMS "porthole" coaches

[sjp23480]

The carmine I generally use is as close to Bachmann's shade as makes no difference when applied over a dark brown undercoat or even maroon. But when applied over cream, it is rather bright. Obviously it isn't viable to paint a the bottom half of a coach brown then re-mask up to give it a coat of carmine, so I wish to mix a colour that looks the same whether it is all over a coach or just the bottom half.

 

I spent 1½ hours this afternoon mixing a cream to match the colour on the Bachmann 'Porthole' compo,  but when it came to Bachmann's carmine red, I gave up after 10 minutes. I need the name of the closest car colour if anyone knows it please........There is a list of car colours suitable for BR somewhere.

Hi Coach,

 

Thus is what I found on the RMWeb archive:

 

"1949-1956 carmine: Ford rosso red, Vauxhall carmine red, Alfa Romeo HR530"

 

Can't vouch for these myself, but a search will reveal relevant stories.

 

SJP

[coachmann]

Alfa Romeo HR530 is the stock colour I've used for some years, though previously it was mixed to pattern by Brown Brothers. Like all good things It is coming to an end. Thanks for taking the trouble on my behalf. It is much appreciated SJP.  I will take the information with me tomorrow.

[JZ]

Halfords BMW Cinnabar red is also a good match.

[brushman47544]

Ford rosso red,

 

'Ford red red' then, as opposed to what, 'Ford not-red red'? Who on earth comes up with these ridiculous paint names? And why does every car manufacturer have to call the same colour something different?

 

With railways it's so much easier isn't it. We all know exactly what colour carmine, maroon, BR(S) green, are don't we

[jwealleans]

I think the BMW colour is 'Zinnobar Red', not 'Cinnabar'.

 

This is it, if it's any indication.

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by jwealleans

[coachmann]

'Ford red red' then, as opposed to what, 'Ford not-red red'? Who on earth comes up with these ridiculous paint names? And why does every car manufacturer have to call the same colour something different?

 

With railways it's so much easier isn't it. We all know exactly what colour carmine, maroon, BR(S) green, are don't we

Too true. But we have always been surrounded by 'marketing'. The LNWR had its Invisible Grey for wagons and Drop Black for locomotives, a bluish black quite unlike dead black. The paint was supplied as pellets or droplets, hence the name. And how about Improved Engine Green as a damned old fashioned lie for yellow ochre.  BR indulged into it when renaming carmine red into crimson and LMS crimson lake into maroon. 

[JZ]

I think the BMW colour is 'Zinnobar Red', not 'Cinnabar'.

 

 

Yes, just been out to check..

[Metr0Land]

Larry, FWIW my humble efforts with Ford Rosso Red.  Note the carmine looks a whole lot brighter over cream which was then masked off, as opposed to grey undercoat of the other 2 coaches but it was all from the same tin!

 

[Fat Controller]

Too true. But we have always been surrounded by 'marketing'. The LNWR had its Invisible Grey for wagons and Drop Black for locomotives, a bluish black quite unlike dead black. The paint was supplied as pellets or droplets, hence the name. And how about Improved Engine Green as a damned old fashioned lie for yellow ochre.  BR indulged into it when renaming carmine red into crimson and LMS crimson lake into maroon. 

These sound like the sort of colours Terry Pratchett might specify for the railway on Discworld..

Cinnabar/Zinnabar is the ore from which mercury is derived; it was used in paint pigments at one time; the colour was known as vermilion.

[coachmann]

I've been out this morning and spent time going through car colour swatches before buying some paint. It needs altering slightly and I'm sat here waiting for samples to dry. The carmine I have used over the years acts as Metroland has said, it being one colour on top of cream and another on top of grey. I am attempting to find a colour that is not so transparent. Failing that, I'll spray carmine on first and cream afterwards.

[flapland]

Have a short rake of the new Porthole and I have to agree with most they are excellent especially if bought for the pre-order price. I do have a question though, is it me or is the coupling with the close coupling bar not very close. Also how late would they have run in Carmine and Cream. 

[dandg]

Rails of Sheffield will not get any more pre-orders from me. I also received an email from Hattons and could have pre-ordered for £24, but why should I?  I thought that I had supported my local model shop and pre-ordered at £22.50 two years earlier!

 

My quibble is not about the price rises imposed by Bachmann, it is over the way that Rails conceal the fact that pre-order prices are only good for 12 months.

I have now received part of my order from Rails having accepted the offer of a reduced price per coach following a lengthy email exchange.

 

As indicated to me two days ago they have now made changes to their price promise for pre-orders.  I would advise anyone who has items pre-ordered to acquaint themselves with the latest information which, as far as I can tell, only appears if you display the item you have ordered and place the mouse pointer over "Price Promise?"

[jonny777]

From watching a fair number of video clips from that era, it appears that crimson/cream vanished rather quickly between 1958 and 1960. In 1958 a majority of coaches are still in that livery except on the most popular main line expresses, which tended to have more Mk1 stock anyway.

 

However, by 1960 they were quite thin on the ground. Admittedly, a few survived until 1964/5 but they were probably the exceptions that found themselves in holiday rakes stored in sidings for much of the year.

 

I think you could use a bit of license because no one has a definite list, but if I was modelling the early 60s I would only have one in a train otherwise composed of maroon stock, and none in most of the trains.

[coachmann]

Have a short rake of the new Porthole and I have to agree with most they are excellent especially if bought for the pre-order price. I do have a question though, is it me or is the coupling with the close coupling bar not very close. Also how late would they have run in Carmine and Cream. 

They are a bit apart aren't they. I sawed 2mm off the end of the NEM sockets so that the coupling coud be pushed in further and held with Loctite. some of the mods have been covered here....http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/87789-Bachmann-lms-d2159-porthole-composite-review/

 

As usual, photos are the real answer when it comes to liveries but failing that there is always conjecture. Assuming the 'Portholes' first repaint was after 5-7 years (I don't know), they were probably all due for works by the time of the livery change to Maroon commencing 1956. However, those that came out in LMS maroon with BR insignia probably got repainted blood & custard around 1953-4, which seems to be the time when BR was making inroads into eliminating the company liveries like teak etc, then those 'Porthole' coaches would remain in b&c until 1958-9. This would also apply to any that had received bad body damage in collisions etc. Of course if one got repaired and repainted in early 1955, then 1060-1 should be okay.  Seeing as gangway adaptors were required to couple to BR Mk.I stock, the LMR rakes tended to hang onto ex LMS stock for far longer than the E. Region and S. Region, and 'Porthole' coaches were regarded as the LMR's best stock.

Edited July 11, 2014 by coachmann

[flapland]

Thanks thats most helpful. Like I suspect a lot of people I have stock from the whole space of BR steam era but getting to the level where I can start to split the stock depending on mood. Of course there is always rule one. 

[cctransuk]

I've been out this morning and spent time going through car colour swatches before buying some paint. It needs altering slightly and I'm sat here waiting for samples to dry. The carmine I have used over the years acts as Metroland has said, it being one colour on top of cream and another on top of grey. I am attempting to find a colour that is not so transparent. Failing that, I'll spray carmine on first and cream afterwards.

 

 

Larry,

 

I strongly suspect that the darkening of carmine over grey undercoat, as opposed to the lighter shade when applied over cream, mimics the prototype; (though not perhaps for precisely the same reasons).

 

Non-corridor and NPCCS stock would not, I am sure, have received the same standard of substrate preparation and paint application as the prestige corridor stock - especially at repaints.

 

Furthermore, the overall carmine livery would have endured an altogether more rigorous existence that the carmine and cream stock.

 

Close examination of colour photos over the years - including a few with both liveries in the same photo - plus my rapidly fading personal recollections, suggest that the 'muddier' aspect of the non-corridor / NPCCS stock was widespread.

 

That said, I have at least one photo of ex-works stock in overall carmine, and carmine and cream, in the same image - it has to be said that there is little, if any, difference in the ex-works colour.

 

I model early 1960s, so my carmine and carmine / cream stock is limited, and represents well-used vehicles. For what it's worth I apply Halfords grey primer to non-corridor / NPCCS stock, and clear primer followed by overall Phoenix BR Coach Cream to corridor stock.

 

I use Cherry Paints (available from Phoenix) BR Faded Crimson for carmine on all stock. The results exactly match Metr0land's photos above and are, to my eye, what is illustrated in colour photos and in my limited memory of the prototype.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited July 11, 2014 by cctransuk

[coachmann]

Thanks John. I have been repainting coaches to suit 1957-8 after previously modelling 1953 on Greenfield. On placing the new Bachmann 'Porthole' coach on the layout yesterday, I decided it had just the dowdy appearance I was looking for as a 'layout coach'. Some of my others have been resprayed matt BR Maroon. I am in the process of experimenting....a coach is due for its next spray (carmine) in a minute so I'll see how this looks compared with the other side that will be all-over carmine.

[Market65]

Hi, just a thought about the bogies and the ride height of these carriages. In the NRM, York today, I took this photo' of one of the bogies of the BTK, 5987 (I know, it is not a Porthole coach), but it does show a welded bogie, and the amount of gap between the top of the bogie frame, and the bottom of the solebar. I hope that this might be of some help..

 

All the best,

 

Market65.

[JZ]

I do have a question though, is it me or is the coupling with the close coupling bar not very close.

No, it's not you. Bachmann have supplied their standard 'jumper' cable type. This was OK on their original Mk1. But leaves a bigger gap since they revised the height and an even bigger gap on these by the look of it. But as I only have one at the moment, I can't properly check.

[Graham_Muz]

And how about Improved Engine Green as a damned old fashioned lie for yellow ochre. .

It was not a lie as such but due to the fact that Stroudley did mot like green as a colour so called his colour an improvement on green somewhat tongue in cheek I feel.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Graham_Muz

[robertcwp]

In the BTF film 'Train Time' from c1952, about 13 minutes in, a porthole CK M24502 (left-hand number, BR Gill Sans) appears still in the unbranded LMS livery in which it would have been outshopped a few years previously, just after nationalisation.

[sandra]

I know it is always dangerous to rely on memory but my own recollection is that carmine and cream coaches were still around in 1961 but by that time they were becoming very rare with most sets being entirely maroon but with the odd set containing just one or two carmine and cream coaches. I don't recall seeing them very much after 1961 but no doubt there may have been some. However the carmine and cream livery was prone to fade which was why it was replaced and thus by 1961 those coaches left in that livery were in a very poor state. The carmine faded to an almost pink colour and looked very shabby. The condition of these coaches would be difficult to model accurately.

 

Strangely my memory is that by this time the remaining carmine and cream coaches were mostly BR Mark 1's. I do remember seeing holiday excursions along the North Wales coast line which were made up of older LMS coaches and these seemed to be entirely maroon.

[cctransuk]

I do remember seeing holiday excursions along the North Wales coast line which were made up of older LMS coaches and these seemed to be entirely maroon.

 

Indeed they were - often without any lining.

 

Holiday peak demand sets were stored in the carriage sidings where we lived - Wigston, Leics. - and many of these only moved two or three weekends a year. They were shabby ex-LMS stock; again, maroon with no lining.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[coachmann]

I used to travel from North Wales to Manchester every friday teatime in 1965 to spend the weekend with my wife. Crumps were cutting up coaches and the yard contained some blood & custard coaches including some wooden Period I stock. The last coaches in blood & custard I saw in service were on the Bangor-Afon Wen service in 1962 or 63. These were 2-window open stock.

[Ian Hargrave]

And after the turbulent storms of yesterday ( no,not the weather ) a ray of sunshine from Merseyside.My porthole break (pre ordered) is winging its way to me at the guaranteed £24....yee hah!