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From Ebay an Old Jinty, a very interesting find


bertiedog

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A 3F Jinty bought from Ebay, I wondered before it arrives what make the cast body could be, did K's, et al, do one?

 

The loco looks fine detailed within reason for it's obvious age, knuckles on the side rods, guard irons on chassis etc., and fine flanges on the wheels. The spokes are very fine, not Tri-ang, etc. might be Essar wheels as the insulation is at the centre of the wheel around the axle.

 

It comes with an early 1940's Taycol motor, spare to the locomotive, of a type used by Hamblings, Essar, and Romford.

 

Who has made either die-cast, or whitemetal bodies like this over the years? If it is related the the motor age, it is early, and it frankly looks an early design. I know that S-R once made a cast 3F scale body, (unrelated to the generic 060 they also did), but who else has done a cast Jinty? (and don't suggest Budgie!!!)

 

Looks worth a good restoration, hopefully a real Vintage loco, at the least an old kit build with some added details.

Stephen

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Nu cast and Westward did cast kits for the 'Jinty'. I would be interested to see if it actually cast when it arrives?

 

Andrew

Looks cast from the missing paint on the side of the footplate, and the listing says heavy! it would be nice to find a brass loco......

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Only going by the appearance of the listing picture and it travelling through Photoshop to enhance it, the Loco looks older than a Westward Kit, which were made in the 1980's? Nu-cast had come to mind, they date from the mid 1970's I believe. It is likely to be a kit body at least. the wheels are a bit curious, very fine profile and spokes, and axle insulation, indicating solid metal like Essar. They are not Romford, or Hamblings.

 

I would dearly like to find an S-R Jinty, they made a few just before the war, but I believe never sold them commercially. It was made in cast lead, (several sections, not one piece), to a very high standard. The moulds were lost in the war period. I was told under a hundred sets were cast and given by Stewart Reidpath to friends and members of his Wimbledon MRC. This one is very unlikely to be an example, but the accompanying motor is old.........

 

The motor is interesting, if serviced carefully and the bearings adjusted correctly, they can run very well indeed. Might need a re-magnetising though.

 

Taycol, ( Professional British motor makers), made for several suppliers until the the early 1950's, as did Zenith. Minor variations exist, some have complete ballraces rather than a single ball, and some have triple ball races with pin point armature ends.

 

Never that popular with modellers as they need careful disassembly to change the worm gear ratio, risking ruining the magnet. But the end play is totally contained in these better designs, and with tightly, correctly messed concentric gears, the running is superbly smooth. Trouble was most axle gears wobbled!!

 

Stephen

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Those wheels bear a close resemblance to the cast brass Essar wheels, the shot shows a recovered one awaiting a acid bath to clean it. they are boss insulted for two rail, just like the Ebay ones, and of course Tri-ang, but those are not Tri-ang wheels!! .which were far courser.

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A study of the picture show the loco to be accurate in proportion, and correct fittings, as far as can be seen from the small image.

I am hoping it is interesting, a bit of a gamble, at least the motor can be used in the re-build if the other is bad.

The only other die cast I can think of is a KMR, they did more than the LMS 440, but I have never seen any of these.

 

I was told the description of the Stewart Reidpath Jinty, 4 sections, cast in type metal, soldered together, with stamped brass splashers, and a stamped brass coal rail, with hand rails on the cab cast in place in the moulds. This design of kit was intended to replace the cruder modified HO 060 they sold as OO scale in 1939, and would have gone to production if the war had not intervened. It's a very long shot that one of these has turned up, they were not sold, but given away as samples by S-R.

The mould maker was the same person who did the LMS/BR diesel for Essar, so the standard would have been very high.

 

Far more likely to be a more modern kit, but has rather vintage wheels and appearance. Should do up nicely to a good standard.

Stephen.

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It looks to me be a Midland example from the safety valve and lack of sandbox filler on the tank side. The body does look reasonable. If it were me I think I'd ditch the chassis for something from, say, Comet, and install good wheels. Brassmasters do a super detailing kit.

 

John

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The Jinty 3F has arrived from Ebay, and it turns out to be a very interesting Vintage Loco Model.

 

It is not a kit, but near entirely scratchbuilt, in Brass, Nickel Silver and steel, with turned fittings and split pin knobs that appear made for the model rather than parts.

 

There are no makers identification marks on the chassis, or the body, or makers name on the motors.

 

The fine scale appearance wheels are cast or coined solid brass, but nickel plated, and bolted onto Romford style 1/8th axles with a Romford style nut, but they are not Romford dimensions, nor Romford production. The back to back is 14.6mm, with narrow tyres to near scale width, with relatively fine flanges.

 

The loco is not insulted for two rail, it is three rail, and from the bolts still attached to the chassis underside, was built for outside third pickup, not centre third rail pickup. It is missing the phosphor bronze spring plate used to hold the outside third wire pickups, but the bolts are in the usual place.

 

The chassis is all brass with top plates, not spacers, but has solid tube axle bearings, with oiling holes, the guard irons are soldered on. The motor is a unit with the chassis, the front bearing is fixed to the chassis, an old practice that went out of fashion due to difficulty in setting up. It is ballraced, with adjustable thrust bearings.

 

It has a complete spare 3 pole motor with it, which has a proper frame over the worm gear, the later more normal practice. Both motors look as if they were made by Taycol, perhaps for another supplier.

 

The body is extremely well made, and matches scale drawings and dimensions exactly, with all the handrails and other details made for it, bar the smokebox front, which appears to be a casting, maybe Essar, and cast buffers, with a bolt cast in place.

 

The box appears as old as the model, and has a Line drawing on it for a 3F, and it a reduced drawing of the "Molly" Live steam loco from Kennions. This is simply sellotaped on and is not original, but the tape is very old! (Molly dates from the late 1930's as a design).

 

My guess is that this is a pre-war or just post war commercially built loco, and from the fittings and standard my vote would be a Stewart Reidpath, especially with the wheels being a type that they once made.

 

They also used the Taycol Horseshoe Magnet motors, and the motors are both star wound, a requirement that Stewart Reidpath specified. I think on balance it is a pre-war Essar Herne Bay production, one of the de-luxe hand made range that Stewart Reidpath made.

 

The side rods are very well made from N/S bullhead rail with soldered on knuckle joints, bosses, and oilers, and closely match other Stewart Reidpath de-luxe production in appearance.

 

After the war Essar had changed to push on wheels, the bolt on ones only continuing on the mazak cast W&H Romford wheels in the late 40's onwards.

 

So a 73/4 year old scale 4mm locomotive, and very good condition, only a step has come off, and is in the box.. The paint is not really that bad, but may be left as the numerals are all hand painted, no transfers, again dating it to very early British commercial production. I would say that the paint was sprayed, not brushed.

 

It will be touched in with black satin to match what is there, and the chassis serviced completely, with the framed motor fitted if the other built in one fails to run. The worms are identical pitch.

 

I suspect the framed motor is a post war motor, purchased with the intention to replace the built in type, which were never reliable, they could so easily go out of adjustment.

 

All in all, a Vintage Locomotive worth restoration, it will be left Outside Third, I have a small test track for them. It shows that loco from that era could be very scale in finish, not the crude examples that some associate with pre-war Model Railways. At the latest it would have been made in the late 1940's from pre-war parts like the wheels, at the earliest it dates from 1936/37.

 

Anybody got any other ideas? Pictures being done and will follow soon.

 

Stephen

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It looks to me be a Midland example from the safety valve and lack of sandbox filler on the tank side.

The first 50 LMS Jinties had Ramsbottom safety valves when built and no 'keyhole'. The Midland 3F tanks had a shorter smokebox and a straight bunker back, the side tanks were also slightly taller with a kink by the cab.

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Sorry about the patchy updates, and lack of promised shots, the site server problems are making downloading any shots a nightmare at the moment, this is absolutely no reflection on Andy, who is fully aware of it, and dealing with the issue.

 

Research is indicating a 1938 Herne bay Essar product, either made to sell under the Essar De-luxe brand, or be supplied to Hamblings in London to sell in the retail shop in Cecil Court. No positive identification, another expert took one loco and said Essar.

 

The motors are both Taycol, made to Essar spec with "star wind", it is only the wheels worrying me, they are like Romford, but very much higher quality, all brass and nickel plate to very fine scale standards. I have heard about the pre-war wheels, but rarely handled them, so can't be sure they are Essar bolt on type. They are similar to types in a Hamblings brochure from 1938, said to be made to Stewart Reidpath's own design. I was told at Hamblings that a de-luxe fine scale wheel range was made just before the war, and was lost due to the war. They said it was made at Herne bay for Hamblings as well as Essar.

 

The built in motors were a complete nuisance and I suspect the other was bought to replace the built in one, but never fitted. They both run OK if a bit hesitant, they need a strip and service. The magnets are slightly weak, but serviceable.

 

It is definitely an outside third pickup loco, a standard Hamblings phosphor bronze plate pickup fits straight on to the two bolts underneath.

 

more soon,

Stephen.

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A very interesting thread Stephen, I do find these vintage models fascinating. The outside third pickup is particularly intriguing, as I have read of it in old books but never seen any working layouts using the system. Do you have many outside pickup locos in your collection?

 

Paul

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There are not many surviving three rail outside pickup locos, they got converted after the war, with just a handful surviving in use on older layouts during the 1950's, then getting stored away.

 

Oddly the stuff to build the 3rd rail is still made by Peco, and it is very easy to lay track, which should be about 2mm higher than the running track. No electrical problems, return loops work, and points are very easy to make when no insulation is needed at all on running rails.

 

I have a small test track, which has outside third, and Dublo inner as well, and some stud contact, but only a few locos fitted for running.

 

The pickup wires stick out of both sides with slightly turned up ends. The power rails are arranged either side, with overlaps at points and junctions, but much tighter than southern 3rd rail, as only one pickup serves the train. Some larger locos had two wire pickups, and some were arranged to run on Dublo without modification, with a centre stud added.

 

This particular loco has very fine scale wheels, these were never intended for Dublo or course scale track, they have a small tyre, and modern height flange, and 14.6 back to back. Essar marketed some that suited 18mm gauge, and US 4mm scale as well, in the pre-war period, and I think these wheels are rare surviving examples.

 

Stephen.

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The wheels, in this case the un-flanged middle wheel, are brass with a nickel electroplate finish, and are fine scale in width, and back to back of 14.6mm, (shouldered axle).. They are held on by a Romford style brass nut, but to different dimensions, larger in proportion to the axle than Romfords. It appears to be a BA or metric thread. I was once told that Essar had made a batch of such fine wheels by a Swiss maker pre-war. Hamblings themselves used Swiss makers for their axles.

 

The wheels are dead accurate and in perfect quarter, no eccentricity or run out. The nickel has worn away on the tyre from use. They are also dead scale diameter on the tyre, and the body splashers are very tight fit for the period.

 

As it has flangeless middle wheels the lead wheels have little side play and just clear the splashers. P4 wheels would not quite fit, but these set to 18mm gauge just squeeze in.

 

The Swiss made wheels were described as suitable for 16,5mm, 18mm and 19mm/20 mm US 4mm locomotives, by changing the axles, and suitable for two rail use with a split chassis and plastic (Tufnol) muff insulation fitted to the axles.

 

This came from the then owner of Hamblings, and he stated that these de-luxe wheels were too costly to re-introduce after the war. They certainly match the description.

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I picked up a GWR Saint and GWR Bulldog (outside frames)? from eBay with exactly the same kind of motor a few weeks back. Both beautifully made. Axles are like brass tube with a hole cut in for oil - I think your Jinty is the same. Will try and post some photos. One has solid brass wheels I think and the other Romfords or similar.

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View of the bottom of the chassis, with the tube bearings and oil holes, typical of Hamblings and Essar, (when they were not using the flat plate frames). Nothing has been cleaned up yet on these!... 74 years of dirt..I wonder how many Bachmann will still be running in another 74 years?

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Better shot after a basic clean up, just needs the steps re-soldered. The motor runs, but needs attention to the rear bearing, and re-magnetising or adding neodymium magnets to the horseshoe magnet. Outside third pick-up being prepared for it.

The LMS van is a Slaters bought for 50p un-assembled, with three others, in a shop, far cheaper than Ebay!

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  • RMweb Gold

There used to be a particularly nasty inverse-snobbery in the US HO market, where someone would look at an expensive factory-handmade brass model and declare "Looks nearly as good as plastic!". I am no expert on Jinties, but this looks like a really nice model, especially considering its age. I hope the minor motor-mods have the desired effect, and she is allowed to earn her corn. Well rescued!

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Although the motor runs, the insulating block that supports the brushes is cracked and a piece missing, so a new one is needed.

The original is Bakelite, and fortunately I have blocks of the right grade material in the workshop. It is still used in Aerials as insulation.

 

The motor brushes are quite complex, they are twisted to allow the top to be drilled through and allow a pivot pin to hinge the brush movement, a very de-luxe arrangement.But it leaves the insulation block a bit delicate to blows! The broken bit has been off for years, the brush held on by the pin.

 

The pivot pin is also the electrical contact on the live side, with the hair spring earthing the motor to the chassis.

 

The brush gear is far more complex design than really needed, and Zenith simplified the layout on the series of Tri-ang motors they did from the 1950's, copying the US Mantua type. Mantua made the very first dedicated small H0/00 motors in the mid 1930's.

 

Taycol made this motor and used industry standards of the time, (late1930's), in making this DC motors brush gear, which has carbon tips, but it has a brass commutator, not copper.

 

The armature is star wound to reduce current and is 12 Volt rating. Rating is a bit difficult to estimate, it run on up to 6 volts quite well. The wire is thicker than most 6 volt motors, and draws about .5 amp at load. The armature is a splined type, very much better engineered than modern ones.

 

I have not checked whether pin points or balls are used in the bearings, as complete disassembly is required, and with the built in style of motor, they risk losing the magnetic field, and are difficult to re-assemble. I have lubed the bearings and tightened them.

 

Adding extra super magnets will help it, neodymium magnets can be added to aid the horseshoe magnet, it worked with the spare motor. Amazingly they are so powerful that it has partially re-magnetised the steel horseshoe magnet on the spare, after removal!!

 

It could be fitted instantly with DCC, as both brushes are independent.........DCC with outside third!!!

 

On outside third it is very reliable and no worst than trams using a trolley pole to pick up power. The issue against was appearance, and damage to the pickups in handling the models. The huge advantage was electrical simplicity, dog bone tracks, return loops, crossovers, all are simple to arrange in three rail. Also for Southern enthusiasts the track looked all right!!

 

A nuisance in making the block is cutting accurate clean 20 thou slits, I will have to make a saw, a slitting rotary saw would be too aggressive, I'll grind down a junior hacksaw blade.

 

The spare motor has similar brushgear, but it is not worth wasting the parts on the repair of the chassis motor, when spares can be made.

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Shot shows that I did not cause the damage!!! it was like it as bought, the shot shows the brush still on the wire pivot, but the tip bent over when a blow broke the Bakelite/Paxolin support. Amazingly the motor still ran with the damage.

 

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In case it is queried, outside third pickups are arranged on flat plate thin phosphor bronze spring plates, usually split , to aid independent movement and allow the gear wheel space to stick through the spring! Half round wire was used to maximise contact with the side rails, which could be on either side as needed, or indeed both sides over points. The contacts barely show in use, except for any sparks!!

 

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Some pickups had single thin plates, un-split, and could a small stud underneath set to run on Hornby three rail track. The outside rail is still made by Peco, and usually was set 2mm above the running rails. Hornby three rail really demanded two pickups to work, but outside third works with just one to provide continuous power.

 

It made coach lighting quite easy as the coach bogies could all have simple wire pickups as well.

 

Stephen.

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Bertiedog

 

Some time ago I brought a Jinty built from sheet metal. Similar style to a Jamieson and has Jamieson style steps. But other parts of the build are not Jamieson. It could be a Jamieson with added detail or a scratch built model which has used some comercial parts.

 

As it happens I have stripped the paint off and started to clean it up, I have also removed 2 chassis retaining nuts, as the original chassis has long gone and the chassis I have for it needs a flat base to sit on.

 

The replacement chassis is a solid brass block which has been milled and drilled, comercial item? I think it is designed to take either a Romford or Airfix 5 pole motor. It has now been painted and needs wheels and gears (both Romford) a motor and hopefully a set of Mainlytrains etched coupling rods will fit the bill, all of which I have in stock.

 

The loco weighs a ton as the sides have been filled with lead

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On the Taycol motor of the type built in to the chassis, here, and on the Lord Nelson, it is possible to fit more modern motors without any major modifications to the original, a smaller Mashima motor will fit, with a brass plate fitted underneath to take the 6BA single retaining screw.

 

The front bearing is left on it's own, doing nothing. The worm can be a Standard old type Romford worm, usually the same pitch worm, Sleeves are made to fit to the smaller metric shafts, or Markits supply old style Romford to fit.

 

In the past I did replace one of these motors with the remains of an X0-4, the shaft was pressed out, and a longer one made to reach the front bearing, a Romford worm was fitted. The front plate of the X0-4 was left in place, so that the motor runs with three bearings.

 

Any X0-4 clone would also fit the space, but the chassis at the back end does have to be filed square rather than the round shape that the horseshoe magnet has.

 

The Taycol parts appear to have been used by other manufacturers like Zenith, who made a range of motors, same basic parts, with detailed changes to brushgear etc. Later Zenith expanded from general modelling supplies to making mainly motors and designed the X0-4 for Rovex.

 

Most motors of the pre-war period share the same splined shaft, and stamped laminations from Taycol. Even the Essar motor had an armature from Zenith for instance. Mr Graham Farish was involved with motor design and supply as well.

 

In the States the only dedicated 1930's motor maker was Mantua, with later on came Pittman, who made a large range of industrial motors, turning to making the smaller types, as the owner was a Interurban trolley fan.

 

Leeds Model Company in the UK made motors, and supplied Basset Lowke, but mainly O gauge sizes. Taycol got interested because of Hamblings needing motors for mass production, they had mainly made motors for Boats before, and supplied Basset Lowke and several other makers.

 

Taycol also supplied Mr Stewart Reidpath, the same Horseshoe motor as Hamblings used, but he also developed his own pancake motor.

 

Most larger motors were field coil AC/DC like Marklin till used until recently. The problem was permanent magnet for small DC motors and Mr Farish being interested with making loudspeakers, held patents on making cast small magnets, which he supplied to Taycol and others. Eclipse also supplied magnets to motor makers, using other magnetic alloys.

 

In the States Mantua used cast Alnico magnets, still under patent from the Japanese inventor, Mr Mishima, at the time and were more powerful than magnets available here in the UK. The first UK user of Alnico was Frank Hornby, and by the end of the war better magnets were generally available, and the Japanese patents had gone with the war, making development easier.

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I noticed an earlier thread that I missed the start of, about RME Kits, RM Evans Ltd., from London, and that they made a 3F Jinty Kit, however examination of the details in the photo published there seems to show many differences to this Jinty.

It would not explain the pre-war chassis, as Evans were in business during the late 1940's. I know they made stamped brass parts kit, with turned and die-cast parts. But did they make wheels etc., and their own motor parts, which I strongly doubt. Anbody know any other details?

 

Are the "Evans" of "Jackson Evans" products the very same people?

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Here are a couple of photos of my vintage Jinty (also from Ebay)

 

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It has been battered a bit so I am filling in the larger dents, I will add a couple of lamp irons and rear window guards

 

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The chassis came off Ebay and fits the Jinty, thankfully Mainlytrains Triang/Hornby coupling rods are the same wheelbase. Next job is to fit the wheels, gears and motor. Once the chassis is in working order I will arrange for fixings on the body (drill and tap holes)

 

I need to clean up the inside of the body any ideas please

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Now, that Jinty may be a JME kit, as it has turned fittings. To clean the inside, flush with strong thinners etc to get clean as possible inside and out, and then put in an acid bath, citric acid powder, dissolved in hot water to saturation. Leave in the warm solution till the brass cleans, may take an hour or two.

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