Midland Main Line Electrification

[DavidLong]

Quote: "BBC Radio Derby political reporter Chris Doidge, meanwhile, said the Varsity line linking Oxford and Cambridge could also be reopened; most of it was closed to passengers following the Beeching Report in the 1960s"

 

IIRC Oxford to Cambridge wasn't listed for closure in the Beeching Report.

 

David

[chrisf]

Quote: "BBC Radio Derby political reporter Chris Doidge, meanwhile, said the Varsity line linking Oxford and Cambridge could also be reopened; most of it was closed to passengers following the Beeching Report in the 1960s"

 

IIRC Oxford to Cambridge wasn't listed for closure in the Beeching Report.

 

David

 

Perhaps Mr Doidge meant "following" as opposed to "before", since Beeching was not the first to propose closures. Perhaps, on the other hand, he is as ill-informed as many of his BBC colleagues.

 

Chris [who tires of his replies disappearing into cyberspace as part of the posting process!]

Edited July 14, 2012 by chrisf

[Butler Henderson]

Sheffield to Moorthorpe is an obvious extension to link with the Donny-Leeds electrification. Very worried that the MML will be electrified as cheap as poss so that its just Bedford-Nottingham and Trent South-Derby-Sheffield so missing out the Erewash Valley and, as daft as many other schemes, the north side of the triangle at Trent.

[pete_mcfarlane]

So--what now for EM Trains fleet of Meridians and 125's ? Conversion---or brand new state of the art Hitachi as replacement ? Too much to ask for Derby-made units,I suppose.

There's already a plan in place to add pantograph cars to the Voyagers, so it should be straightforward enough to extend this to the Meridians. Or they could be redeployed to other routes - Liverpool to Norwich would be a good candidate.

 

The HSTs will be life expired by the time the electrification is completed, and presumably replacing them with new electric trains is part of the economic case. Stand by for the usual rubbish from Derby based MPs and Unions.....

[Edwin_m]

This is excellent news.

 

In Network Rail's 2009 study there was actually a better case for electrification of the Midland than the Great Western. The GW was given the go-ahead, possibly for political reasons but perhaps also because it uses up the EMUs displaced by Thameslink and displaces DMUs so fits with the DfT intention not to buy any new ones. The Midland is purely a long-distance scheme, unless it also includes some add-ons such as Derby-Matlock or Sheffield-Doncaster/Leeds.

 

The same paper claimed that both Midland and GW schemes are justifiable on pure financial grounds without taking account of the socio-economic benefits. If you believe the figures this means that the cost of the work can be borrowed and fully repaid out of future operating cost savings without any extra funding from fares or taxes.

 

There is also a good fit with the idea of pantograph cars for Voyagers on CrossCountry. Many of the CrossCountry services run a lot of mileage under the wires but with significant sections on routes that are a long way down any list for electrification. Having a dual-mode vehicle allows them to take advantage of schemes such as this one and gradually increase their electric mileage.

 

In theory both Nottingham and Sheffield could be served from London via the ECML. However they each have two MML trains per hour, which if diverted to the ECML would trigger the Welwyn four-tracking and various other schemes. Services would also have to continue on the MML for stations between Wellingborough and Derby which don't have any sensible alternative route to London, so you'd probably end up running more trains in total but also providing a less frequent service to most places.

[Kris]

The way the BBC are reporting it suggests that when it is "properly" announced tomorrow then there will be cries that this is a re announcement of schemes that have already been announced.

[Edwin_m]

Not only that but there is also a mention of Oxford-Cambidge. However this appears to be just a re-announcement of reopening between Bicester and Bletchley with through trains from Oxford as far east as Bedford.

[Ron Ron Ron]

The way the BBC are reporting it suggests that when it is "properly" announced tomorrow then there will be cries that this is a re announcement of schemes that have already been announced.

 

The BBC have been slow in getting this news out (yesterday-friday) as the Grauniad and one other newspaper have been running this story since last Monday.

 

By all accounts the announcement will include several schemes that are already going ahead, or previously known about, but there are a few new ones.

We've already had the very welcome news about the Heathrow western link, which did rather come out of the blue, despite being talked about and speculated over for quite some time; so hopefully there will be equally swift action in bringing forward some other projects.

The MML will however be the headline grabber.

 

Another one is the prospect of an extension of the GWML wires from Cardiff to Swansea.

There has been some speculation that the DfT have been angling for the Welsh budget to foot the bill for that, hence the insistence that the business case for it was too weak as part of the main scheme. Will it be rolled up in the Valley Lines getting the wires?

 

I'm hoping this will also be the opportunity to throw in the Crossrail extension from Maidenhead to Reading.

This has always needed to come out of a separate budget and through my layman's eyes, the timing couldn't be better with construction at both the Reading and Paddington ends (of the GWML section) now well under way.

In terms of timescales and practicality, it seems to me to be a far higher priority than the East-West link (Varsity line) at the present time.

There hasn't been any mention or speculation about this so far, which is a disappointment, but with a bit of luck this might be one of the surprises?

 

 

.

[frobisher]

So--what now for EM Trains fleet of Meridians and 125's ? Conversion---or brand new state of the art Hitachi as replacement ? Too much to ask for Derby-made units,I suppose.

 

I can see the addition of pantograph cars in the Meridians' future if that programme kicks off for the Voyagers. HSTs will probably get redeployed in time.

[Oldddudders]

In terms of timescales and practicality, it seems to me to be a far higher priority than the East-West link (Varsity line) at the present time.

The East-West link has always been touted as a key strategic improvement, reducing freight mileage via London from East Anglia etc, with a consortium of local authorities supporting it on that basis. In the present economic climate there is less pressure on such routes, perhaps - but railway investment has always been touted as offering good things for the long term. While re-linking the centres of academia sounds romantic, my guess is that passenger demand never would require very many trains - as it didn't in steam days before we all had a car.

 

Compared to the urgent needs of other corridors being discussed in this thread, this remains a bit "third division south" in any list of priorities, surely.

[Talltim]

 

There's already a plan in place to add pantograph cars to the Voyagers, so it should be straightforward enough to extend this to the Meridians. Or they could be redeployed to other routes - Liverpool to Norwich would be a good candidate..

Meridians would be slower than the current 158s as the 158s have speed limit dispensations due to their light weight. IIRC this affects the Hope.Valley and east of Nottingham

Edited July 14, 2012 by Talltim

[gronk the shunter]

Bearing in mind the apparent low cost (relatively speaking, I wouldn't mind spending 1/76 of that much on my railway!!) I'd say that the pantograph cars in merideans are a certainty, the ordering of which will be spun to say how the government are supporting jobs in Derby.....although they won't actually build them there.

[Edwin_m]

I think they run the Meridians to Liverpool on Grand National day. It's probably the same situation as the 185s - the ability to go at 100mph on those bits where it is allowed counteracts the inability to use the Sprinter differential restrictions.

 

If they don't get pantograph cars (or perhaps even if they do) it's quite possible the Meridians would end up on London-Plymouth/Penzance, by a process of elimination as there are few other places that will need an InterCity quality* diesel.

 

*allegedly.

[gronk the shunter]

Also on the bbc site it says;

 

"an upgrade of parts of the East Coast Main Line from London to the north of England."

 

could this be Doncaster-Hull electrification??

[deltic17]

As has been commented above - I still find it amazing how many diesels run under the wires - in the North East on the ECML the only trains that use the juice are the 91's on KX-Newcastle/Edinburgh and there are still a fair few HST's on the service too - and it's nearly 25 years since it was electrified. What really is the benefit of electrification for the passenger? - I still don't fully see the case myself. The 91's run at 125mph - like the HST's do/did. They might accelerate a bit quicker, are quieter and are cleaner outside but I think that's minimal benefits for the expense in my eyes. On the ECML today I think I'd rather travel on a HST than a 91 for space/comfort and funnily enough both of these are better than the newer Pendolinos on the WCML!

[Edwin_m]

The justification for electrification is reduced operating and maintenance cost, lower carbon emissions and less dependence on oil. Any passenger comfort benefit doesn't come into the equation. Having said that, while there is little difference in passenger comfort between an HST and an electric equivalent, most of the trains on the Midland have underfloor engines, as almost certainly would the HST replacements, and I'd say an electric definitely scores over these in reduced noise and vibration.

[RhBBob]

I seem to recall that the home of my Council Tax, otherwise called Lincoln, was to be linked to Kings X by diesel HST via Nottingham.

 

Presumably that is now off the agenda ?

[lmsforever]

The East-West link has always been touted as a key strategic improvement, reducing freight mileage via London from East Anglia etc, with a consortium of local authorities supporting it on that basis. In the present economic climate there is less pressure on such routes, perhaps - but railway investment has always been touted as offering good things for the long term. While re-linking the centres of academia sounds romantic, my guess is that passenger demand never would require very many trains - as it didn't in steam days before we all had a car.

 

Compared to the urgent needs of other corridors being discussed in this thread, this remains a bit "third division south" in any list of priorities, surely.

Here in Aylesbury we need the northward link that the reopening to Bletchley will bring, as the town is stifled by a lack of viable links to the outside world.Two trains an hour are planned so links to the WCML will be available so easing traffic on the roads to MK ,the population in the region is growing and they will use the line every day, there are new houses being built all over the region north of Aylesbury and Bicester is trebling in size so the traffic will be there .

[Ohmisterporter]

Is all this going ahead in addition to HS2? 

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Ohmisterporter

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

We've already had the very welcome news about the Heathrow western link, which did rather come out of the blue, despite being talked about and speculated over for quite some time; (snipped).

 

Another one is the prospect of an extension of the GWML wires from Cardiff to Swansea.

There has been some speculation that the DfT have been angling for the Welsh budget to foot the bill for that, hence the insistence that the business case for it was too weak as part of the main scheme. Will it be rolled up in the Valley Lines getting the wires?

 

I'm hoping this will also be the opportunity to throw in the Crossrail extension from Maidenhead to Reading.

This has always needed to come out of a separate budget and through my layman's eyes, the timing couldn't be better with construction at both the Reading and Paddington ends (of the GWML section) now well under way.

In terms of timescales and practicality, it seems to me to be a far higher priority than the East-West link (Varsity line) at the present time.

There hasn't been any mention or speculation about this so far, which is a disappointment, but with a bit of luck this might be one of the surprises?

 

 

Starting with the last one I'd put Oxford all the way to Cambridge in the Isthmian League - even further down the scale than Ian's placing. Oxford- Bletchley reopening makes soem sort of sense, especially with an Aylesbury link and I can see the logic of going on to Bedford but east of there any reopening hits big problems and potentially lengthy diversions. More likely we'll be looking at the earlier BR scheme and finishing up with Oxford - Peterborough perhaps?

 

To me extending Crossrail to Reading is a very mixed bag - Crossrail's scheme costs will rise considerably by adding nearly 40 minutes into the cycle time for sets unless frequency is reduced and I seriously wonder if the 'new' Reading will have sufficient platform capacity. Certainly the original scheme couldn't develop enough capacity at Reading with two dedicated platform faces (mind you that doesn't say much for Maidenhead either come to that!) and I know there are folk on the fringes of the project who are keener to see it cutback to Slough and possibly have in mind the c.24 minutes that would take out of the cycle time for sets. Add in the likely Reading - Heathrow service will which need fast paths (but almost certainly not at Main Lines running times) and I can see a possible squeeze on both Reading platform capacity and on the Relief Lines almost all the way to, probably, West Drayton. Maybe some body has some answers to this but unless they come without the price of taking out station stops I can't really work out what they are likely to be.

 

Finally taking the wires to Swansea is an obvious and operationally sensible step which was probably omitted from the original plan as much for the reasons you suggest as for any other.

[ess1uk]

I know that bridge, but a small price to pay.

Let's hope the news is good.

[roythebus]

Don't dangle a tape measure off it if they put wires under there!!

[scorpion]

common sense (yes, i know) would extend the wires beyond Sheffield to Doncaster and South Kirkby, then Leeds -Nottingham , Sheffield- Adwick, empty stock , diversions and electro voygers would benefit

 

but ..Tram Train would fry unless dual voltage trams are specified, so what do you do, full network electrification or pursue the pointless Tram Train experiment

[Talltim]

I know that bridge, but a small price to pay.

Let's hope the news is good.

 

I took my boy there recently. A rubbish photo, but

Untitled by ta||tim, on Flickr

Edited July 14, 2012 by Talltim

[RBE]

What to have souless emus gliding past? hmm I'd sooner have Tapton Bridge. Its bad enough to be swamped with bombardier trash and class 66s all day long when Chesterfield used to be plagued with loco hauled services in the form of 45s, 47s and class 31s left right and centre, double headed 37s on steel and roadstone, 56s and 58s on coal, 47s on freightliners and 20s on ballast duty to name but a few. Chesterfield used to be a conjunction of many railway companies in the days of steam and what has it got now? The old LMS station (albeit rebuilt now) and tapton bridge to show for it. (Actually the old tunnel under the town is now used by the council as a storage lock up which is novel)

 

Don't worry it won't be there if they electrify it as even if it high enough it will not meet the safety requirements to pass over and electrified line.

 

Nice pic btw, legendary view of the railway, if it goes - sad days.

 

Cav

Edited July 14, 2012 by RBE