boeing757 Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Hopefully someone modelling GWR or WR can tell me if wagons fitted with DC01 brakes lasted into the post nationalisation period. I model BR (E) in the 50s and would like to include an ex-GWR 3 plank wagon with container using the Cooper-craft 7mm 3015 model for a little variety. To say I'm confused by GWR brake gear would be an understatement. Thanks in advance, Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 I can't give you specific examples but I'm sure someone will come up with them. So, what can I say? Firstly, the usual convention is to refer to the Dean-Churchward brakes as DCI, DCII and DCIII, using upper case Roman numerals. This is the notation used in Atkins et al., A History of GWR Goods Wagons, though they also refer to them as MkI, MkII and MkIII. I'm not surprised that you are confused by them as not only are there the three types, but also vacuum fitted varieties of DCII and DCIII, not to mention the many modified forms. Examples of DCI surviving after WWII would be one of these modified forms. From 1939, wagons were meant to conform with the government regulations that required operation from both sides with the levers at the right-hand end on both sides. DCI, like DCII, had always been a double-sided configuration, but the levers were on either end of a single shaft so that, on one side, they would be at the left-hand end. Also from 1939, no new wagons were built with DC brakes. According to Atkins et al., in May 1939 there were 5703 wagons remaining with DCI or DCII brakes. Of these, 3384 needed to be modified to conform with the regulations. The remainder were to be scrapped in the near future. Whilst some would probably have been converted to Morton brakes, this conversion led to the appearance of cross-cornered DCI brakes. I've not yet found a photo that clearly shows one of these, but I assume the conversion involved adding a lever and shaft at the opposite end to the existing lever, together with links between the two shafts similar to those on a DCIII mechanism. Of course, I may be wrong. Does anyone know of a good photo? Do the kit instructions say anything about the origin of this wagon? On the web site it just says "Re-built 3 Plank Open" so I'm not sure what it really is. As far as I can discover, the GWR had not built any three plank wagons since the mid-1880s and none of these made it on to the index when diagram numbers were assigned. These all pre-dated DC brakes and were originally fitted with single sided lever brakes. Atkins et al. mention the O35 diagram of 1939 as the only three plank wagons built since the 1880s. These were built for use with DX stone containers, so perhaps the prototype of the kit was a re-build for similar purposes? Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForestPines Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 I recall looking into this topic once - for a similar reason, to see when a Coopercraft kit prototype would have gone out of service - and got thoroughly confused by the various dates by which DCI braked-wagons were supposed to have disappeared but didn't. What I did discover, however, but never followed up, is that the Severn Valley Railway does have a preserved open wagon which should, from its diagram, have been built with DCI brakes; but obviously survived long enough to reach preservation- I assume, into the post-nationalisation period. It's an O4 diagram wagon, no. 25190, and should presumably be an example for how DCI brakes were modified to comply with BoT requirements post-war. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
boeing757 Posted December 17, 2011 Author Share Posted December 17, 2011 Thank you for the replies. I have left the title uncorrected Nick otherwise your initial words will lose their meaning. The instructions for the kit are rather minimal and cover 6 different wagons. The only mention for the 3 plank is that they were used for container traffic and non-common user. As I am resident in Cyprus, a trip to the SVR is for the moment a non starter. On the bright side I have unearthed an article by Dave Spencer from the model press dated Nov2010 showing a Dia 011 wagon with modified brakes. I only have a poor photocopy which does not identify the magazine ( I suspect it is Railway Modeller) The Dia 011 illustration shows the brake handles both on the required rhs of the wagon, with the wrong sided lever deleted and an additional lever on a short cross shaft added. It also shows 4 shoes and a cross shaft between the central v hangers. I will go with this, but how I wish I had brought the magazine out here but I was already well over the airline baggage limit. Thanks again, Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Resurrecting an old thread I know, but I just got hold of a Coopercraft 3015 3 plank wagon. I too am confused over brakes. The kit appears to come with DCI brakes. However my period is 1962ish so I'm wondering what these would have been fitted with by that time (if they hadn't already been scrapped). I had a look through the pictures on Paul B's site and most of those seem to be Morton fitted. It raises the question in my mind that BR might have replaced the DC brakes with something more standard. Can someone clarify? Thanks John Edit, There are several views of 25190 here: https://www.flickr.com/groups/1147322@N23/ It does look to be the closest to the Coopercraft model, despite being 5 plank, and appears to have DCI brakes. All the views I can find are of the same side, that without brake shoes. There's a picture of 41277, 4 plank, that appears to have brakes on one side only but has a traditional brake lever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Suggest PM Garethp8873 of this parish, who might have a shot of the other side of 25190. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Thanks Miss P. I did find another thread where you had posted some sketches of improvements to the kit and will take those on board. Jhn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Lovely detail pictures GWR, thanks. The question rattling around in my head is whether these vehicles would have kept their DC brakes in BR service (1962) or whether they would have been converted. As I browse Paul Bs site a lot seem to have had vac brakes added by BR, others remained unfitted but with Morton brakes. I notice that a great many have BR standard buffer housings which is good news since the Coopercraft housings are pretty awful. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Well that clears that up. I have modified the CC buffer housings to take sprung buffers so that's OK, even if they're not pretty. I'll take your advice on the brakes as well and fit the DCI. I'll post some pictures of my efforts. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Thanks Miss P. I did find another thread where you had posted some sketches of improvements to the kit and will take those on board. And if you find that thread, please let me know! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 The quickets way to improve the Coopercraft buffers is to substitute the guides and buffers from the Peco upgrade kit RO-3 (GWR Tapered Shank Buffers & Couplings). The turned brass guides are a dead fit into the holes in the CC moulding and the result is correct for the GWR spindle buffers of the period. If you are going for accuracy in terms of appearance, there will also be the small matter of making the bottom ends of the body knees, on the face ofthe solebars, line up with the upper part, on the body sides. CC adopted the usual simplification of using just one set of moulds for the underframe components across all of their kits. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Here's the link to those improvements Miss P: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/44841-new-from-cooper-craft/?p=791909 Thanks Jim, that kit does look good. I will look into getting one. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 A shame about Coopercraft. I like the ex Slaters 4mm kits but very little is available nowadays from what I read. Just as well I moved to 0 gauge. I can indulge myself with Slaters 0 kits now. I'm guessing Slaters have acquired the Coopercraft kits. The one I'm building is probably third hand having been around the block a few times. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garethp8873 Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Suggest PM Garethp8873 of this parish, who might have a shot of the other side of 25190. Indeed I do Miss Prism and brossard I was almost thinking I didn't have any shots of the other side of 25190 until I check my Flickr page... since the wagons rarely move at Bewdley unless for events I usually get the same side everytime...!! ATB, Garethp8873. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Ask and ye shall receive. Thanks a ton Gareth, I should be able to build my kit with some credibility now. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Excellent shots, Gareth. That looks pukka DCI. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 Funny how this DCI system was supposed to be corrected in 1939, yet this wagon and others seems to have missed that. I suppose the unpleasantness from 1939 to 1945 had a lot to do with it. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 So too might a wagon's relegation to internal use, or sold off to dock owners such as the Port of Bristol Authority, who ended up as home to more than a few superannuated wagons that eventually found their way into preservation. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted July 15, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 15, 2017 The common conversion of DC1 brakes was to remoce the "offside" lever and fit a single sided lever brake on that side. In Doug Hewson's new book on constructing 5 inch gauge wagons there is a photo of the converted side of GW 24554, a five plank open to Diagram O4. This was probably done in GWR days as it is still in late GW livery but had the W prefix added to the number. Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastglosmog Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 Just attaching a still from a Army Film Unit film taken about May 1944, which shows what I think is an O4 with single sided brakes and DC1 lever on lhs of the unbraked side, whatever should have happened by May 1939! Anyway, I'm using as an excuse to run a similarly equipped wagon in 1946/7. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 I've read through this: http://www.gwr.org.uk/nowagonbrakes.html and find the idea of converting this wagon to the post 1939 configuration appealing - it would mean that there's a better chance that BR might have kept them in traffic. (I have the recent Dapol BR built unfitted wagon that I was surprised to find only has brakes on one side. It does have Morton levers though) Having read the description in the link a few times, I think I see how it could be done. Never one to take the easy route me. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 The only snag with all this is that none of these 3-plank wagons were built with DC brakes. Actually, not the only snag as the model is 6 inches too long (Coopercraft used their standard 16ft underframe for what was a 15ft 6in wagon) and I'd be very surprised if any of them survived the war, let alone nationalisation. Sorry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Well that throws cold water over everything Richard. I'll have to live with the length discrepancy, but it's good to know for the future. If not DC brakes, what did they have? I'm almost finished doing the DCIX (I think that's what it was) mod that makes the DC brakes comply with the 1939 BoT dictum for having levers on both sides and and at the RH side of the wagon. As for surviving nationalization, Rule 1 applies there. I don't suppose you have a picture? John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Well that throws cold water over everything Richard. I'll have to live with the length discrepancy, but it's good to know for the future. If not DC brakes, what did they have? I'm almost finished doing the DCIX (I think that's what it was) mod that makes the DC brakes comply with the 1939 BoT dictum for having levers on both sides and and at the RH side of the wagon. As for surviving nationalization, Rule 1 applies there. I don't suppose you have a picture? John They had what was called 'freighters' brakes - the bog standard lever and two shoes on one side only originally. This would have been modified to reflect change of regulations by the addition of another set on the other side. Sometimes the second set only had one shoe, usually at the lever end. Similar mods were carried out on iron minks and even some Mex. Sorry I can't show you any photos as I'm on holiday so no access to my records! Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 OK thanks for that info, I'll see if I can turn something up, unless others have something. John Edit, I think I found it here: http://www.gwr.org.uk/nowagonbrakes.html, check the iron mink. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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