jim.snowdon Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 It's a nice illustration of a common solution to the "right hand lever" requirement of the 1911 BoT Order, however the article creates confusion by getting the dates wrong. The 1939 Order mandated the requirement that brake could only be released from the same side of the wagon as that from which it had been applied. The classic Morton arrangement complied, having clutches on both brake levers, but the GW cross-cornered brake did not, as both brake levers worked together and the brakes were held on by a single ratchet operable by either lever. Quite why the BoT insisted on that I don't know. On the matter of the kits, the Coopercraft wagons have brakes more typical of what should be under the Peco wagons, and vice versa. The only snag is that Peco won't sell the mouldings separately. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 ...the requirement that brake could only be released from the same side of the wagon as that from which it had been applied. But doesn't the DCIII allow release from either side? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 But doesn't the DCIII allow release from either side? Therein lay the cause of its downfall - on a wagon with DC brakes, of any type, you could apply the brakes from one side (let's call that the A side), then go to the other (B) side of the wagon and release them. What the 1939 Order required was that if you applied the brakes from the A side, you could release them only from the A side. The Morton arrangement, and variants thereof, such as those with slotted lifting links, comply with the 1939 Order. The critical requirement of a compliant design is that the brake shaft, to which the shoes are coupled, is not coupled directly to either brake lever. On both sides, the brake lever is effectively loose on the shaft, with the mechanical connection being via a one-way coupling - either the Morton clutch, or the slotted link. Thus, if the A side brake lever was depressed and pinned down, the clutch/link would cause the brake shaft to rotate, applying the brakes. The B side lever simply sat there, and even if it was subsequently depressed, it could not alter the fact that the A side lever would still be holding the brakes on. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Jim, Miss P, as Richard has pointed out in post # 25, these 3 plank wagons were not DC brake fitted but had more traditional lever brakes like those on the iron mink in the link in post # 28 (at least I think they are based on Richard's description in post # 27). Quite a minefield. I've shortened the wagon by 6" (to 15' 6") and I'm now working on the non DC brakes. All very confusing but I think I'm getting there. I just hope no-one upsets this apple cart. I did find one of these kits for sale all built up: https://www.themodelcentre.com/7015TMC-1/ It has clearly been assembled IAW with the instructions. It has levers for DCI but brake push rods for the long lever brake system. Barry Norman reviewed a Coopercraft wagon in MRJ 174 and he rebuilt the push rods to be correct for DCI. The builder did a nice job of building the kit. It's all good fun. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Thanks, Jim. I can just about accept a logic of the 1939 ruling in respect of lever brakes that were able to be pinned down, but the ruling made no sense at all in respect of DC systems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 That's as may be, but even if it doesn't apply to Coopercraft's 3-plank wagon, it's all useful knowledge that others may appreciate. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Totally agree Jim, I'm very pleased and gratified that this thread contains so much useful information. I wanted to ensure that there's no confusion about the 3 plank. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 T'is a pity no one has posted a photo of this model. The GWR inherited thousands of 3 plank wagons from the Welsh Railways. A diagram for TVR ones shows numerous lengths. Including in these was a batch of 100, with independent brake, built by Turner just before Grouping. Some of these lasted until the late 1950s. The Wagon register corrects the length to 16ft oh. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Hi Paul, yes, I would have liked to see a picture of the actual thing, they were probably extinct when you were taking the photos. I posted a link in post # 32 to a built up kit but this doesn't really reflect the actual wagon. I got corroboration for the length and brakes from a picture of an etched version of this wagon: http://www.raymondwalley.com/wagons/gwr/3plank.html#.WW_WoFiouUk I'd have been better off doing that I think. It also occurs to me that the 3 plank wagon is Off Topic for this thread. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted July 20, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 20, 2017 Just one comment about Morton clutches. It has take me nearly 70 years to realise that there was one each side of the wagon. One is prominent but the other is no bigger than a normal lever end bearing, so is not noticeable. Fortunately it means it doesn't need to be modelled. Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 I finally finished construction of the 3 plank having spent most of last week building a layout board. P1010001-002 by John Kendall, on Flickr Brakes were modelled after the photos of the iron mink in the link in post # 28. You can't tell in the picture but I used some etched push rods and made them from parallel bars as they should be. I decided to persevere and modified the supplied buffer housing for springing. I'm quite pleased with how this came out. I had a set of Slaters buffers. The kit has a plastic coupling hook and dreadful looking links. I used a Parkside 3 link coupling. Safety loops are phosphor bronze 1mm strip as are the brake lever guides. Brake levers are from my scrap box. P1010002-002 by John Kendall, on Flickr Note the single brake on this side. P1010003 by John Kendall, on Flickr I've weathered the interior to try to make it look like used natural wood. I started with Polly S Concrete but any cream colour will do. I then used rust, umber and black powders. The kit doesn't have much interior detail. Bolt heads are blobs of PVA. BTW my friend dropped off some wagon books. There are few pictures of 3 plank wagons taken a century ago - I couldn't see any knee braces. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 Nicely done. The interiors of these wagons generally don't have much detail - unlike mineral wagons, merchandise wagons normally keep the ironwork on the outside so as not to get in the way of the load. That is also why you couldn't see any knee braces - the body knees, as they are termed are on the outside, originally as forgings from flat bar, and later as angle or T sections. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 Right Jim, in many pictures I've seen the triangular braces under the body overhang and bearing against the solebar. In pictures of 3 plank wagons that I could see in the book, there were no braces. Perhaps they were a later addition. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 For completeness here is the wagon lettered and weathered: P1010012 by John Kendall, on Flickr P1010011 by John Kendall, on Flickr I start with a light dusting of earth and follow with a light coat of black using my airbrush. I use three powders; rust, umber and black and layer these.I start with rust on the axleboxes, springs, brakes and solebar. I then follow up with umber in the same places but also on the metal fittings of the body. Finally I apply black to finish off. Powder is one of those things that you want to be careful not to use too much of.I used the fiberglass pen to polish the buffer heads and rub a bit of the weathering off the black patches carefully (I reckon these would have got a clean now and then). I also rubbed the weathering off the brake handle, again this would have been kept cleanish.I used a silver pencil to highlight the door pins. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 Very nice, although I wouldn't overdo it in terms of polish/cleanliness on the details. The rings on the door locking pins may have got work with handling, but burnished steel is quite dark in colour, and periodic use of the brake handle, much of it involving the use of a brake stick, will no trub much of the dirt off. Railway dirt is quite tenacious stuff. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted August 11, 2017 Share Posted August 11, 2017 Thanks for the comments Jim. I agree the pins are probably too bright. I might have a (careful) go with some Humbrol Metalcote Gunmetal. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 I am thankful that I was pointed to this thread. I now know that I need to add a rod on my coopercraft wagons to link the two brake levers together. I also have a better idea of what colour to spray the wagons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Martin, be VERY careful with CC brakes as supplied. They tend to be neither one nor t'other. As you may have read I had a great struggle with these. My advice is to look carefully at the photos and, if you have it, read Barry Norman's article in MRJ 174. Firstly make sure your wagon actually had DC brakes, my 3 plank didn't, notwithstanding the parts supplied. The brakes on the 3 plank are independent, there is no cross shaft. Not Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 I'm in Sydney, Australia and I am not strictly a GWR Modeller. I had the coopercraft ktis with wheels very cheap and I just needed some generic 4-wheel open wagons for some recreational shunting. But thanks for your advice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 OK Martin, others may benefit. The kit I built was the same as yours, second hand, cheap and included wheels. If you do the DC brakes as supplied the brakes will pull off when the lever is depressed. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 I think if I build any more, I'll try for conventional drop-levers in the future since I only want generic non-descript wagons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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