250BOB Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Well today was the day to try and fit the double slip and hex frog juicer. And that just about sums it up.........I did it. Just cant beleive it was so simple......thanks to the frog juicer. Thanks everyone for all the help and confidence boosts to get on and do this.......perfect. Runs faultlessly with Code 75 Electrofrog double slip, using DCC and sound locos, not the slightest hic cup. Cheers .....Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted March 4, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2012 Glad you found it easy to install. The one hex frog juicer I had installed, worked faultlessy at a show recently so now I have installed a second one and a third will be installed this week. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Well today was the day to try and fit the double slip and hex frog juicer. And that just about sums it up.........I did it. Just cant beleive it was so simple......thanks to the frog juicer. Thanks everyone for all the help and confidence boosts to get on and do this.......perfect. Runs faultlessly with Code 75 Electrofrog double slip, using DCC and sound locos, not the slightest hic cup. Cheers .....Bob Hi Bob. Glad the Frog Juicer is working well for you. After all the good comments i'm reading in this thread I might get one for my fiddle yard which won't have the Cobalt motors i intend using on the scenic section. Look forward to seeing some more on your Fairfield Junction thread. Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted March 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2012 If you are using Cobalt motor, have you considered using Wabbits? They will not only change the frog polarity but also change the turnout if appracohing a trailing one. No good if you have routes set up though (I am advised). A friend is considering installing Wabbits - will post the results if he does. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2012 If you are using Cobalt motor, have you considered using Wabbits? They will not only change the frog polarity but also change the turnout if appracohing a trailing one. No good if you have routes set up though (I am advised). A friend is considering installing Wabbits - will post the results if he does. Wabbits - and Hares - can certainly do this, but you do need to provide a means for telling them a train is approaching a "wrong" point in order for them to reverse it. Thus a couple of cuts in a running rail are recommended, with a connection from the short section in between to the Wabbit/Hare. This does involve some extra work in stabilising that short section of rail etc. Sum up : Yes they can, but it takes a little effort. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Wabbits - and Hares - can certainly do this, but you do need to provide a means for telling them a train is approaching a "wrong" point in order for them to reverse it. Thus a couple of cuts in a running rail are recommended, with a connection from the short section in between to the Wabbit/Hare. This does involve some extra work in stabilising that short section of rail etc. Sum up : Yes they can, but it takes a little effort. Other forms of sensor may work, such as a optical beam breaking or reflecting circuit. Thus no short broken sections of rail. Or, a small lightly sprung "treadle" which the wheel flange runs over, such as a piece of thin curved phos-bronze strip, connected to the "rail break" connection on the Wabbit/Hare. ( All these are theoretical, I've not actually tried any of them !). - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 If you are using Cobalt motor, have you considered using Wabbits? They will not only change the frog polarity but also change the turnout if appracohing a trailing one. No good if you have routes set up though (I am advised). A friend is considering installing Wabbits - will post the results if he does. Ian Hi Ian, If you check back to my original post, you will see that I am using surface point motors with no polarity switching available to me.....hence the frog juicer. If I had used sub baseboard point motors, then, yes, I would have used them to do the polarity switching. Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoworks Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 just wondering here, but if you were a tight wad, would it be possible to feed 2 or even more frogs from one output if the track formation meant you could only ever run through one frog on different routes at a time? obviously this would be a better proposition if you only ran a couple of loco's at once. and you would need to bond the blades and totally isolate the frog so blade contact couldn't short the unit both ways if the two points were set opposite frog polarities ( dcc friendly ). i could see this working with a fan of sidings into a yard so that if you had a 4 road yard with the first point having a point in eack of its routes then these 2 points could only ever be used one or the other and never together. so you used 2 outputs from the juicer to feed the 3 points. if you then made it into an 8 road yard with 4 points onto the 2, one output could supply the 4 new frogs as they too could only be used one at a time??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted March 8, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 8, 2012 An interesting question. I bleieve you can do this. I have one turnout that is currently not in use. All six treminals of the Jiucer on that board have already been used so 'doubling up' has crossed my mind as I do not really want to buy another juicer just for this one turnout. When I get round to trying this I will post the results Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyrush Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 just wondering here, but if you were a tight wad, would it be possible to feed 2 or even more frogs from one output if the track formation meant you could only ever run through one frog on different routes at a time? obviously this would be a better proposition if you only ran a couple of loco's at once. and you would need to bond the blades and totally isolate the frog so blade contact couldn't short the unit both ways if the two points were set opposite frog polarities ( dcc friendly ). i could see this working with a fan of sidings into a yard so that if you had a 4 road yard with the first point having a point in eack of its routes then these 2 points could only ever be used one or the other and never together. so you used 2 outputs from the juicer to feed the 3 points. if you then made it into an 8 road yard with 4 points onto the 2, one output could supply the 4 new frogs as they too could only be used one at a time??? Yes, I have done it with up to 4 separate frogs in three different locations, ensuring that there are no cases that a loco can bridge any two frogs on the same Juicer output at the same time. Either fans of sidings or long 'ladder crossings' can be suitable. How tight is that! Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 8, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 8, 2012 Yes, I have done it with up to 4 separate frogs in three different locations, ensuring that there are no cases that a loco can bridge any two frogs on the same Juicer output at the same time. Either fans of sidings or long 'ladder crossings' can be suitable. How tight is that! Not "tight" at all. Just ingenious use of the kit you've paid for, enabling a saving that can be spent on modelling/rent/groceries/the pub/Ruby Murray etc etc . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
locoworks Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Yes, I have done it with up to 4 separate frogs in three different locations, ensuring that there are no cases that a loco can bridge any two frogs on the same Juicer output at the same time. Either fans of sidings or long 'ladder crossings' can be suitable. How tight is that! Andy are you from further north?? over the wall?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyrush Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 are you from further north?? over the wall?? Would be over the hill - if they had any hills in these parts...... Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianwales Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Hi all Just discovered the Frog Juicer and I have a query, If I have a crossover in a double track main line I wire the 2 frogs to seperate outputs of the juicer, can the juicer then cope if 2 locos on parralel tracks happen to hit the frogs of the respective points at the same time? Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted October 18, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 18, 2012 Yes the Juicer copes with that. Effectively the Juicer is 5 seperate frog circuit switches on one board. it also has a setting to allow one loco to set the polarity on both frogs of the crossover but I havent used this yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted October 31, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 31, 2012 Just getting into this stuff. I've fitted some Cobalts with internal decoders to pointwork on a friend's layout and suitably impressed with the inbuilt "juicer" on the Cobalt. However, I have a diamond crossing in the middle of a scissors crossover - do I need a dual channel juicer? Or two single channel juicers? Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted November 1, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 1, 2012 Mick I would guess you would need a four outputs, one for each of the turnouts in the diamond crossover. i did search Tam valleys website which indicated they had further diagrams but couldnt find them. Maybe send them an email and hopefully they will send you a wiring diagram. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakydoke Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 i did search Tam valleys website which indicated they had further diagrams but couldnt find them..... Try the bottom of this page. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted November 1, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 1, 2012 Strange - wouldn't show up when I tried that page at home, as it only went down as far as the diamond crossing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Just getting into this stuff. I've fitted some Cobalts with internal decoders to pointwork on a friend's layout and suitably impressed with the inbuilt "juicer" on the Cobalt. However, I have a diamond crossing in the middle of a scissors crossover - do I need a dual channel juicer? Or two single channel juicers? You could use the switches on the Cobalt's. Or you could spend a load of extra money on an unnecessary Frog-Juicer. Both work, both require about the same number of wires. With a scissors, there are only three legal routes - straight both roads, cross-over "left turnouts", cross-over "right turnouts". The fourth combination (cross-over "both") is illegal as it could lead to a collision at the cross-over and shouldn't ever be set. The way to work out the wiring is to draw the main rails, then colour the rails depending on the routes selected. The two crossings in the centre of the scissors need to be switched with the crossings of one of the points at the other end of the scissors (doesn't matter which is used, provided the "illegal" route isn't ever set). - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted November 1, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 1, 2012 Thanks Ian and Nigel. I've previously wired scissors crossovers with Peco motor/microswitches, using diodes to ensure "legal" routes are set with no major hassle - we have two scissors on Blackmill. However, I'm using Cobalts with integral decoders - they have a built in "frog juicer" and only ONE auxilary switch - which I'm possibly going to need to interlock with a couple of signals. So therefore, unless I use the one auxiliary switch to drive a relay to create more contacts, I can't switch the crossings on the diamond. I have no problem with relays and stuff ( I used to design large relay panels for industrial machinery a few years ago before the UK engineering industry was sold off - but that's a rant another story), but I thought I'd try out the frog juicer idea. Looking at the Tam Valley website, there's a diagram with two of the 6 channels used for a diamond crossing. Checking Bromsgrove Models site - they have a two channel unit that looks suitable for £20.50. The link to the data sheet from this page shows me exactly what I need. By the time I've added extra relays/wiring, including a power supply to the relays, it begins to look very cost effective. Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Thanks Ian and Nigel. I've previously wired scissors crossovers with Peco motor/microswitches, using diodes to ensure "legal" routes are set with no major hassle - we have two scissors on Blackmill. However, I'm using Cobalts with integral decoders - they have a built in "frog juicer" and only ONE auxilary switch - which I'm possibly going to need to interlock with a couple of signals. So therefore, unless I use the one auxiliary switch to drive a relay to create more contacts, I can't switch the crossings on the diamond. I don't know how the Cobalts with integral decoders work, and there doesn't appear to be an easy to find manual on the maker's website. However, if they each have a "frog juicer" internally, then you have all you need - as I indicated, the crossings (frogs) on the diamond connect to one of the crossings (frogs) on a turnout at the other end of the scissors. The auxillary switch can still do other things. If you do go down the relay route, then they could be powered off the DCC bus quite easily; just fit a rectifier (four diodes) to the DCC track supply, then the output of the rectifier goes via the auxillary contact switch and the relay coil. No extra power supply needed. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted November 1, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 1, 2012 I don't know how the Cobalts with integral decoders work, and there doesn't appear to be an easy to find manual on the maker's website. Correct! There's a manual for standard Cobalts. And I think the little sticker on the decoder fitted cobalt terminal block is wrong as the suggested connections for the auxiliary don't seem to tally - it's marked COM/LHS/RHS - it should be RHS/LHS/COM. (I haven't got one to hand at the moment) However, if they each have a "frog juicer" internally, then you have all you need - as I indicated, the crossings (frogs) on the diamond connect to one of the crossings (frogs) on a turnout at the other end of the scissors. The auxillary switch can still do other things. I've just tried drawing it out and I think I'll have a short. If the frog on the diamond is connected to the frog on the turnout at the other end - it works. Until you do the same for the other half of the crossover and you end up with a direct connection between the two running rails. (with a fully switched system, this isn't the case as the diamond frogs are completely dead until the point moves the switch to the crossover route) I presume the frog on the main line will only be powered up as trains go by, but if there's a train each way on the main lines, then the frog on the diamond will be energised from both rails - can the two juicers cope with this or will it trip out? If you do go down the relay route, then they could be powered off the DCC bus quite easily; just fit a rectifier (four diodes) to the DCC track supply, then the output of the rectifier goes via the auxillary contact switch and the relay coil. No extra power supply needed. I know the diodes are pennies and relays a little bit more, but it's more wiring than a dual channel juicer (4 wires only) - and more stuff to confuse my less techie-savvy operators that may have to fix things when I'm not there............... Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Correct! There's a manual for standard Cobalts. And I think the little sticker on the decoder fitted cobalt terminal block is wrong as the suggested connections for the auxiliary don't seem to tally - it's marked COM/LHS/RHS - it should be RHS/LHS/COM. (I haven't got one to hand at the moment) I've just tried drawing it out and I think I'll have a short. If the frog on the diamond is connected to the frog on the turnout at the other end - it works. Until you do the same for the other half of the crossover and you end up with a direct connection between the two running rails. (with a fully switched system, this isn't the case as the diamond frogs are completely dead until the point moves the switch to the crossover route) I presume the frog on the main line will only be powered up as trains go by, but if there's a train each way on the main lines, then the frog on the diamond will be energised from both rails - can the two juicers cope with this or will it trip out? I can't help with the poor instructions for the Cobalt ! However, assuming it works as some sort of single pole juicer or change-over.... Only connect the diamond frogs to the turnouts on one side scisssors (eg. the "up" line). On the other side (eg. "down"), just connect the turnouts to their frogs. Does this diagram help ? Assume each turnout has its own motor, and means to change its frog (either a "juicer" circuit in the decoder, or a change-over switch). The yellow and green lines show the connections to the crossing frogs to the turnouts on the upper line. The pink lines show the turnout routes set for either path through the crossing. The red and blue spots show the polarity of each bit of rail; only the frogs need to be switched, the other bits of rail are wired to the bus directly. I left off the "straight" path, as only the polarity of the turnout frogs matter , and those are dealt with by their motors. If you're running a pair of turnouts from one motor with a mechanical linkage, then I think there is no alternative but to use the other contacts on the Cobalt's, or relays, or additional juicer devices. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted November 1, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 1, 2012 Does this diagram help ? I think so! How do juicers work? Do they detect a loco making the gap and then power up the frog accordingly? Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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