SEEP PM1 & FROG POLARITY ETC...

[albertzzz]

Can someone help me please?

I want to add seep point motors (PM1 type with the switch built in) to my layout and have them change signals & LED's on a panel. I also

want them to change the frog polarity of the point when switched... my question is this...

 

Can do all of that and also change the frog polarity as the wiring is confusing me as to where the frog wire will go?

I have searched the internet and found wiring diagrams for this but i cant find out if its possible to do all of this with one PM1

as the signals & LED's require their own power supply also?

 

I have attached the drawing which i am working to..

[RFS]

One solution would be to use the switch on the PM1 to drive a DPDT relay, using one pole on the relay for the LEDs and the other for frog polarity.

[albertzzz]

A relay... mmm, i could do it that way! so i'm guessing that the PM1 switch can only do one or the other and not both?

[davec.hh]

Hi

 

I've used PM1s in the past. They cannot change frog polarity and operate the LEDs at the same time. A relay would be needed to do that or use a micro switch for the second function.

 

Alternatively, Tortoise point motors (and similar) have two sets of changeover contacts so can change both frog polarity and operate the LEDs. I think that Peco now do an accessory switch that acts as a double pole double throw switch.

 

Hope that is of some use.

 

Best regards

 

DaveC

[albertzzz]

Ah, thanks Dave, that was the answer i was looking for. It makes sense now that there is only one function as it were, on these motors.

I have bought a lot (25) of these point motors so i'm going to have to use them.

The easiest option for me (not electrically proficient) would be to get a HEX Frog juicer. (a bit expensive though)

I have read up about these and seem to be dead easy to wire up. This would mean i could have signal & leds operated separately with the switch, and have the Hex Jucier

do the frogs.

[silverlink]

From experience I will never use Seep point motors again! reason for this is we fitted around 30 of these to our club layout and they did nothing but cause problems. Main one been the frog polarity (the layout is full DCC) we are using Peco track & points and the switch over for the frog is so delicate it would sometimes stick across the terminals causing a short. We tried everything to rectify it but to no avail. I see you are wanting to add lights etc, as mentioned in thread 4 Tortoise motors spring to mind. I use these on my exhibition layout and they are brilliant, you can wire up the frog polarity change, add LED's (without resistors) for direction change on your panel and still have another switch for signals (resistor required) cost around £13. Also very reliable and you will have points working like the real railway. At our club we have gone over to Cobalts which work just like the tortoise but are smaller, we bought ours from Modelmarket who have an internet shop for around £14. The nice thing with this type of point motor you don't have to buy extra bits and pieces to add on to get them to do what you want.

cheers

silverlink

[albertzzz]

Thanks Siverlink, I will see how i get on with the first few motors when the are fitted, if they start giving me problems like you say, i will try some of these cobalt ones and give them a try. They certainly seem to be the way to go as regards ease of wiring etc..

[RFS]

Ah, thanks Dave, that was the answer i was looking for. It makes sense now that there is only one function as it were, on these motors.

I have bought a lot (25) of these point motors so i'm going to have to use them.

The easiest option for me (not electrically proficient) would be to get a HEX Frog juicer. (a bit expensive though)

I have read up about these and seem to be dead easy to wire up. This would mean i could have signal & leds operated separately with the switch, and have the Hex Jucier

do the frogs.

 

Not sure what system you are using but the Hex Frog Juicer is for DCC only. It's also somewhat expensive to say the least - at £8 per point.

 

The Cobalt/Tortoise motors only need a DPDT change-over switch as all you are doing is changing the polarity so the switch position will always tell you which way the points are set. Ironically, as they're always powered, you can wire an LED in series with the power terminals, which means you don't need to use one of the internal switches for the LED indicator. See page 2 of the Tortoise installation document - http://www.mgbrr.org/tips/an6000-1.pdf . And you can connect the LED directly to the switch without having to run any wires to the motor.

Edited January 5, 2012 by RFS

[melmerby]

See my reply and piccy's on the topic about Seeps with code 75 track

http://www.rmweb.co....-dcc-questions/

(post #6)

My advice: use separate microswitches if you want to use Seeps

 

Keith

Edited January 8, 2012 by melmerby

[silverlink]

I still think this is an awful lot of work, centralising the seep, adding extra microswitchs & making sure it is stuck in place, more wires & resistors. It still doesn't address the problem of the contacts touching each other & causing a short. As I said in thread six we had around thirty of these fitted on our club layout and they were nothing but trouble. Having changed to Cobalts the problem with frog polarity has been eradicated. Now if you have bought lots of Seep's then forget all I am saying, good luck with trying to wire them. If you still need more then why not try a Tortoise or Cobalt, no need for any extra's all the switches are built in, also, and I think this is the clincher, they are extremely reliable.

silverlink

[Suzie]

Albertzzz

 

You have not said whether you are using DCC or not, but if you are using DCC there are ways to do what you want quite easily.

 

 

If you do not have AC LEDs you will have to put inverse parallel diodes across them, but it is quite straightforward.

 

Sorry about the colours but it is not easy to change them in a JPEG image!

[albertzzz]

Thanks for all the reply's, it's opened my eyes a little to all the work involved so maybe i will get one of those cobalt motors and try that.

[Suzie]

Thanks for all the reply's, it's opened my eyes a little to all the work involved so maybe i will get one of those cobalt motors and try that.

 

And we still do not know if you are using DC or DCC!

[melmerby]

I still think this is an awful lot of work, centralising the seep, adding extra microswitchs & making sure it is stuck in place, more wires & resistors. It still doesn't address the problem of the contacts touching each other & causing a short. As I said in thread six we had around thirty of these fitted on our club layout and they were nothing but trouble. Having changed to Cobalts the problem with frog polarity has been eradicated. Now if you have bought lots of Seep's then forget all I am saying, good luck with trying to wire them. If you still need more then why not try a Tortoise or Cobalt, no need for any extra's all the switches are built in, also, and I think this is the clincher, they are extremely reliable.

silverlink

Eh? Fitting a Seep when not using it's own switch is a doddle. Stuck in place? I screw them down - easy! Extra wires? surely it doesn't matter what you use, you still need the wires to switch the frogs, leds etc. Contacts touching each other - what contacts?

 

N.B I have tried Seeps, Pecos, H&Ms, Codars, Traintronics TT300 and most recently Tortoise. Haven't tried a Cobalt (yet!)

 

H&Ms need lots of current and only have one switch but are bomb proof, however they are now obselete -same applies to Codars.

Pecos are IMHO more fiddly to mount than Seeps due to the large hole required and are difficult to add switches unless you use Pecos own system then they become expensive for a solenoid type point motor.

TT300s - neat with onboard DCC - but only one switch and a bit fiddly to line up with that short pin, also mine have a habit of switching when power is connected/disconnected and one is unreliable.

Tortoises need lots of space - I can't fit them in some places on my layout, but come with plenty of recommendations.

 

Keith

Edited January 9, 2012 by melmerby

[David HW]

On 08/01/2012 at 19:24, Suzie said:

Albertzzz

 

You have not said whether you are using DCC or not, but if you are using DCC there are ways to do what you want quite easily.

 

 

If you do not have AC LEDs you will have to put inverse parallel diodes across them, but it is quite straightforward.

 

Sorry about the colours but it is not easy to change them in a JPEG image!

HI Suzie. 

 

This has been very helpful and confirmed my plans for the points and signals. Just a quick question, sorry, if we were to make the signals ourselves with leds do you know what else maybe needed in the way  of wiring? 

 

Sorry to drag this up from 2012 - but it is on the right track from me. 

 

David

[Suzie]

Nothing else required, just the AC LEDs and resistors shown in the diagram.