The Great Train Robbery's missing mastermind?

[Pannier Tank]

 

Regarding the coaches used in 'Robbery', the first vehicle behind D318 was a standard BR maroon BG, the second was an ex-LMS Royal Mail Sorting Vehicle, the remainder being more ex-LMS types....

 

M30204M was the sorting vehicle involved; I saw it at Bletchley a few days after the event.

[Rugd1022]

 

M30204M was the sorting vehicle involved; I saw it at Bletchley a few days after the event.

 

Hi David... do you actually mean the vehicle used in the film or the one from the real robbery in '63? Reason I ask is I'm currently looking at stills from the film on another page on my pc and the first two vehicles behind D318 in the robbery sequence are BG M80956M and ex-LMS Sorting Van M30201M....

 

Michael Delemar... you have a PM

Edited January 10, 2012 by Rugd1022

[Pannier Tank]

 

Hi David... do you actually mean the vehicle used in the film or the one from the real robbery in '63? Reason I ask is I'm currently looking at stills from the film on another page on my pc and the first two vehicles behind D318 in the robbery sequence are BG M80956M and ex-LMS Sorting Van M30201M....

 

 

No, the real one. M30204M came to Bletchley Station a few days after the robbery, and was stabled in the 'Dock Siding'; there was evidence that the CID had been over it looking for finger prints!

[Rugd1022]

Cheers David . I've seen still photos of the same vehicle parked in the Aylesbury bay at Cheddington on the morning of the robbery and it was in a bit of a state. In my locker at work I have a book on the robbery which includes transcripts of the Police investigation, I'm sure it mentions the CID fingerprinting etc... I'll dig it out tomorrow when I drop in to pick up my roster.

[the penguin of doom]

I can see why you would be uncomfortable, did anyone challenge his opinion at the talk? Never heard of the Otto Skorzeny rumour myself, is there anything online to relate him to the robbery?

 

Sadly, no one, (myself included), challenged him.

 

There was a general air of support in the room, so I thought it best to keep my gob shut..... This was the reason I was a little uncomfortable before going, I didn't feel comfortable appearing to support him by going along. I guess I was proved right too with the general support I'd witnessed. Nowt so queer as folk I guess.....

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[PhilJ W]

Haven't watched the documentary yet, but besides the GPO insiders it was alledged at the time that there was one or more railway insider involved. The gang had to be able to stop the train and have time to get the bags off without suspicion being aroused until it had been an unusually long time in section. I was told in the 1960s that suspicion was also thrown on staff working on the modernisation of the line, but nothing came of this as far as I am aware.

They never found out who drove the locomotive from where they 'fixed' the signal to where they unloaded the vans. It had to be someone with some railway and/or locomotive driving knowledge. The locomotive crew were taken from the cab into the engine room, perhaps this was because they might recognise him?

[Rugd1022]

They never found out who drove the locomotive from where they 'fixed' the signal to where they unloaded the vans. It had to be someone with some railway and/or locomotive driving knowledge. The locomotive crew were taken from the cab into the engine room, perhaps this was because they might recognise him?

 

Not quite Phil... Jack Mills and his fireman David Whitby were bundled into the engine room while the robbers tried to get one of their own to move D326 and the first two vehicles down to Bridego Bridge, trouble was the guy they'd picked had no knowledge of EE Type 4s and couldn't get the brakes off (he was a green carded shunt driver apparently), so Mills was brought back into the cab and forced to move the train himself.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Rugd1022

[PhilJ W]

definatley unused footage from Robbery, look at 4mins 45. interior shot of the actor in the same car with gloves on.

 

would have been shot for the first 15 minutes or so of the film

 

i dont think the reg plates have been blanked out, just that there is a few cars without front number plates on

They were definitely blanked out, you can see this on the Triumph Herald convertable that the camera vehicle was following. The entire rear panel including badges etc. was blacked out.

[Michael Delamar]

They were definitely blanked out, you can see this on the Triumph Herald convertable that the camera vehicle was following. The entire rear panel including badges etc. was blacked out.

your right, i was just about to say you where right as im just watching it on the catchup tv, rather than on the laptop.

 

dont know why they did it mind

[Edwin_m]

I think on one of the earlier street shots I saw a set of "modern" traffic lights in the background, the ones with the larger faceplate. When did these first appear?

[PhilJ W]

your right, i was just about to say you where right as im just watching it on the catchup tv, rather than on the laptop.

 

dont know why they did it mind

Its possible that it was done on the original film, but not all number plates were blanked out.

I think on one of the earlier street shots I saw a set of "modern" traffic lights in the background, the ones with the larger faceplate. When did these first appear?

I would say that most of the shots were 1966-68. I was learning to drive in 1967 and they were just being introduced because I had to get a new copy of the Highway Code. (I passed my test 44 years ago next week.

[Debs.]

I had to get a new copy of the Highway Code....I passed my test 44 years ago next week.

 

I believe the proceedant-minion with a red-flag is no longer mandated!

Edited January 10, 2012 by Debs.

[Michael Delamar]

ive watched this with my dad a few times now, purely for those road scenes, anything from the 50s/ 60's that has road vehicles my dad will watch and will point out what the cars and lorries are. theres a good shot early on of a Lambretta which my dads got a few of so he liked that bit most

Edited January 10, 2012 by michael delamar

[PhilJ W]

I believe the preceedant-minion with a red-flag is no longer mandated!

Yes and you soon get used to that steering tiller, it's these new fangled wheels that I have trouble getting used too.

[Porcy Mane]

If I may take the liberty of correcting some earlier statements.

 

First vehicle was not a BR Standard BG and it was only the first coach that was substituted on the night of the robbery.

M31016M took the place of the “High Value†coach which was originally a Western region coach. Sorry can’t find its number at the moment.

 

Make up of the train was:

M31016M - Full Brake (BG)

M30204M - Sorting (POS)

M30289M - Sorting (POS)

M30235M - Sorting (POS)

M30220M - Sorting (POS)

M30277M - Sorting (POS)

M30214M - Sorting (POS)

M30210M - Bag Tender (POT)

M30275M - Bag Tender (POT)

M30272M - Sorting (POS)

M30247M - Sorting (POS)

M30276M - Brake Bag Tender (BPOT)

 

HTH,

Porcy

 

Edited to try and sort out the font size as AOL still screws up the formatting...

Edited January 11, 2012 by Porcy Mane

[Fat Controller]

I wonder if the 'high-value' coach was meant to have been one of the ex-GWR 'Bullion' vans, which has cropped up recently on here on a thread about NPCCS?

[Porcy Mane]

I wonder if the 'high-value' coach was meant to have been one of the ex-GWR 'Bullion' vans, which has cropped up recently on here on a thread about NPCCS?

 

No. It was a different shape. There's photos of it about on the web. Not to sure but there is film of it somewhere. It may have been in the West German feature film of the GTR.

Porcy

[Rugd1022]

If I may take the liberty of correcting some earlier statements.

 

First vehicle was not a BR Standard BG and it was only the first coach that was substituted on the night of the robbery.

M31016M took the place of the “High Value†coach which was originally a Western region coach. Sorry can’t find its number at the moment.

 

Make up of the train was:

M31016M - Full Brake (BG)

M30204M - Sorting (POS)

M30289M - Sorting (POS)

M30235M - Sorting (POS)

M30220M - Sorting (POS)

M30277M - Sorting (POS)

M30214M - Sorting (POS)

M30210M - Bag Tender (POT)

M30275M - Bag Tender (POT)

M30272M - Sorting (POS)

M30247M - Sorting (POS)

M30276M - Brake Bag Tender (BPOT)

 

HTH,

Porcy

 

Edited to try and sort out the font size as AOL still screws up the formatting...

 

Morning Porcy,

 

I was actually referring to the vehicles used in the film 'Robbery' when I mentioned the BG, not the actual train robbery of '63

Edited January 11, 2012 by Rugd1022

[Pennine MC]

 

...trouble was the guy they'd picked had no knowledge of EE Type 4s and couldn't get the brakes off (he was a green carded shunt driver apparently), so Mills was brought back into the cab and forced to move the train himself.

 

Which I believe is when driver Mills sustained the injuries, in resisting?

 

Nidge, a question has come up on another forum, which I must admit has got me thinking. Assuming the line and loco were AWS fitted, the driver would presumably have had a 'clear' bell at the magnet. I'm assuming though that by then, he'd have started slowing on sight of the red, to be on the safe side and perhaps assuming a malfunction with either the signal or the AWS, and that the unexpected then transpired before he had time to rationalise everything?

[the penguin of doom]

 

 

Which I believe is when driver Mills sustained the injuries, in resisting?

 

Nidge, a question has come up on another forum, which I must admit has got me thinking. Assuming the line and loco were AWS fitted, the driver would presumably have had a 'clear' bell at the magnet. I'm assuming though that by then, he'd have started slowing on sight of the red, to be on the safe side and perhaps assuming a malfunction with either the signal or the AWS, and that the unexpected then transpired before he had time to rationalise everything?

 

I'm also summising the signal in rear would have been showing a Green? Presuming the line was track circuit block, the chances are at that time of night, the mail would have been running on green signals?

[Pennine MC]

I'm also summising the signal in rear would have been showing a Green? Presuming the line was track circuit block, the chances are at that time of night, the mail would have been running on green signals?

 

That's the other thing Sean, if the WCML had MAS in 1963 (and I'm not at all sure if it did), there certainly shouldnt have been a red immediately following a green. But whatever, a diligent driver would surely try to stop at a red if at all possible, and worry about the cause once he'd phoned the bobby.

[The Stationmaster]

That's the other thing Sean, if the WCML had MAS in 1963 (and I'm not at all sure if it did), there certainly shouldnt have been a red immediately following a green. But whatever, a diligent driver would surely try to stop at a red if at all possible, and worry about the cause once he'd phoned the bobby.

MAS had not spread that far south at the time of the robbery and the train was stopped at an Intermediate Block Home Signal, presumably the repeater was not returned to caution but I don't know about that one way or the other. One of the (semi-fictitious) films showed a bit of fiddling with wiring in the signal head itself but the actual incident might have involved something more sophisticated which didn't become public knowledge (for obvious reasons).

 

Addendum The loco was AWS fitted and so was the repeater for the IBS. And isn't unknown for signals to return to danger of course - after a train has passed the yellow.

Edited January 11, 2012 by The Stationmaster

[the penguin of doom]

 

MAS had not spread that far south at the time of the robbery and the train was stopped at an Intermediate Block Home Signal, presumably the repeater was not returned to caution but I don't know about that one way or the other. One of the (semi-fictitious) films showed a bit of fiddling with wiring in the signal head itself but the actual incident might have involved something more sophisticated which didn't become public knowledge (for obvious reasons).

 

Addendum The loco was AWS fitted and so was the repeater for the IBS. And isn't unknown for signals to return to danger of course - after a train has passed the yellow.

 

So, (and my memory of IBS is vague), a short on the track would cause the home and distant to return to their most restrictive aspect, but this would indicate in the controlling signal box? Best case scenario is the distant was at caution, but again, given the time of night, its likely the mail passed a green distant before coming upon the red home. If this is the case, the driver was indeed diligent Pennine. Just think, had he not been, a late brake application may have resulted in the train coming to a stop somewhere past Bridego Bridge or even not stopping at all......

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

Edited January 11, 2012 by the penguin of doom

[Debs.]

a diligent driver would surely try to stop at a red if at all possible, and worry about the cause once he'd phoned the bobby.

 

When I was on the footplate (now a very-long time ago) we did have one "thrown back" in front of us at mainline speed; having been on a clear run of greens/bells.....`not nice trying to stop a 1000+ tonnes of bogie tanks in what seemed like a little over twice the train`s length.......we had no choice but to SPAD (loco and first couple of tank`s length) but mercifully everything was squared-up.......evidently, some kids were thought to have thrown cable onto the overhead-lines from a bridge.

The ghastly feeling of not being able to stop in time, and watching that 'red' glaring at us as it passed over the top of the cab window......I feel sick now, recalling it!

 

......my driver`s chat with the bobby was somewhat (erm, how may I best describe it) 'animated'

[Grovenor]

One of the (semi-fictitious) films showed a bit of fiddling with wiring in the signal head itself but t

The story I remember from the time was that a leather glove was put over the green bulb and the red false fed with a battery. I was a trainee engineer with the LM S&T at the time but I don't now remember where the story came from.

Keith