Western Star Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 [i have changed the title of this thread to broaden the scope of the discussion. The first question is related to the tanks and fillers of a refurbished engine. Who knows where this will end up... not me forsure!] This question about the tanks fitted to a refurbished engine arises from books with information on construction details as built and as refurbished. Whilst there seems to be general consensus about what was provided for initial build and the result of refurbishment there is no clear story about what was retained / replaced / converted - maybe that is not possible at this distance in time. Locos which were built with steam heat boilers had a diesel fuel tank and a water tank, no problem. Locos which were built without a steam heat boiler would not have requried a water tank so there are several possibilities:- [1] water tank provided and not used; [2] water tank not fitted and nothing else put in vacant location; [3] water tank not fitted and second fuel tank fitted as replacement for water tank; [4] water tank fitted and converted for use as a diesel fuel tank. Locos which were refurbished as Cl 37/4 were given electric train heat capability and hence would not have required either a steam heat boiler or a water tank. If an engine with a water tank was included in the refurbishment program then upon release as a 37/4 what was the situation:- [5] water tank retained and converted for use as a diesel fuel tank; [6] water tank replaced by a fuel tank for diesel fuel. There may be other scenarios which could be included in this question, however my interest is specific to the appearance of engine no. 37408 circa 1988. As this engine was built without a steam heat boiler then the staring position is relevant. To continue. Instinct suggests that a filler for a water tank ought to be of a different shape / size to a filler for a fuel tank - so as to avoid water being put in a fuel tank and vice versa. If that is correct then what was done to on refurbishment if a water tank was converted to a diesel fuel tank? (changes to the fillers? to the tank?) Not having seen the respective fittings of a 37, night anyone have photos of the water and fuel fillers? thank you for your assistance, Graham Beare Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 37/4's had the water tanks converted into fuel tanks by adding balancing pipes (as did other 37 variants). Often the biggest visual indication is that the fuel gauge location on the water tank is plated over (but not always). No additional fuel filling points were provided, the second tank fills at the same time as the main tank, I'm not sure where the filling point for the boiler water was. I've got some photos I can post later, but in the meantime take a look at Brian Daniels' Flickr site here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/sets/72157626899648349/ Where there's loads of useful 37 details. The fuel filler is visible in this pic: http://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/5861365792/in/set-72157626899648349 And some of the pipework is visible in this shot: http://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/5861377610/in/set-72157626899648349 HTH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 HTH? yes, although the original puzzle is "puzzling". I am not sure about your link to a photo of the fuel filler, try this photo from the same source which shows several fillers.... Hopefully Brain Daniels will be along soon and explain all. regards, Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 In the pic you linked to, the pink one is most likely the engine lube oil drain (although it could be a filler) and the blue one is a water filler for the cooling system. Pipework/conduit is colour coded on diesel locos as follows: Water - French Blue Fuel - Light Brown Air - White Lube oil - Salmon Pink Electric - Orange The big brown pipework in the photo I linked to (and you can see it in the RHS of the pic you linked to) is definitely the fuel filler, located next to the fuel tank towards the No 1 end (cooler group end). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Pipework/conduit is colour coded on diesel locos as follows: Water - French Blue Fuel - Light Brown Air - White Lube oil - Salmon Pink Electric - Orange Which manufacturer do you recommend for these colours? What "names" or "numbers" and I can toddle down to Hobbycraft.... thank you, Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 What ranges do they carry in Hobbycraft? I'd personally use Vallejo acrylics, the numbers of which are: 70.911 Orange 70.835 Salmon 70.839 Blue 70.877 Brown 70.951 White There are online tools that will allow you to translate those into other brands if you can't obtain those particular colours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian daniels Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Hello, it's me I have these colour specs on my computer for the BR pipe colours. BS 381C 1964 Colour Ref No Oil - Diesel Fuel - Engine - Light Brown - 410 Oil - Diesel Fuel - Boiler - Light Brown - 410 Lub Oil - Salmon Pink - 447 Water- Engine Cooling - French Blue - 166 Water- Boiler Feed - Grass Green - 218 Electrical - Light Orange - 557 Fire Equipment - Signal Red - 537 I found a picture that I could blow into a bit that showed the boiler filler even though this was an NB loco. I have also marked what the pipes are apart from one which I will admit I am a bit lost on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 I have these colour specs on my computer for the BR pipe colours. BS 381C 1964 Colour Ref No Oil - Diesel Fuel - Engine - Light Brown - 410 Oil - Diesel Fuel - Boiler - Light Brown - 410 Lub Oil - Salmon Pink - 447 Water- Engine Cooling - French Blue - 166 Water- Boiler Feed - Grass Green - 218 Electrical - Light Orange - 557 Fire Equipment - Signal Red - 537 For 37/4 engines - any pipes from the water tank, which would have been painted grass green, are now painted light brown, correct? My preference is enamel rather than acrylic paint, any idea as to how the above or the Vallejo references from Martin match to Humbrol / Railmatch / Precision paints? I found a picture that I could blow into a bit that showed the boiler filler even though this was an NB loco I have also marked what the pipes are apart from one which I will admit I am a bit lost on. NB meaning "no boiler"? Very helpful to have marked the pipes on the two photos, pity that JLTRT does not include such information in the instructions... maybe you could offer an addendum sheet to Lauire. Thank you and regards, Graham Beare Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 Still with the tanks... the JLTRT kit provides one fuel tank and one water tank. The tank at the no. 1 end has a cover plate, about 5 or 6mm, on the underside - is this a moulding / casting sprue or something on the prototype? Martyn, you have mentioned that the re-furb engines have a balance pipe - fitted in the re-furb? - have you a photo? Spoke to Shawplan at the Stafford show.... guy was interested in the JLTRT kit and in your work with the motor. thank you, Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard carr Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Hi Graham I'm surprised you are building a 37 I thought you were a committed steam man. I'm building a batch of these at the moment, a little earlier than yours as I prefer the BR blue period. What are you doing for the bogies, are you doing anything different to the JLTRT resin chassis ? I have had some brass chassis etched that use 3 beam compensation with a 3 axle delrin drive. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 I'm surprised you are building a 37 I thought you were a committed steam man. What are you doing for the bogies, are you doing anything different to the JLTRT resin chassis ? I have had some brass chassis etched that use 3 beam compensation with a 3 axle delrin drive. Hi Richard, The 37 is being built by Peter.... I get the fun task of sorting the details. As far as I can tell, the build will be "just out of the box" with some changes to the body sides for a re-furb engine. The detailing is made somewhat awkward in that the engine which becam 37408 started out as a non-boiler engine.... hence questions about the original tanks, the fitting or otherwise of the boiler exhaust port and any changes that might have been made to the fillers/ drains along the underside of the skirt. Any ideas on those questions? The inner bogie castings will go back to Laurie. Peter has ordered ABC motor bogies, geared for 80mph max, so the beast ought to sit down, growl and go. As to sound, definitely although the question of chipset is open at this time. SWD offers just a generic 37/0 whereas Howes offers a 37/4... probably going to be two ESU chips for 4mm motors with one being a Howes-supplied sound decoder.. regards, Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Still with the tanks... the JLTRT kit provides one fuel tank and one water tank. The tank at the no. 1 end has a cover plate, about 5 or 6mm, on the underside - is this a moulding / casting sprue or something on the prototype? Martyn, you have mentioned that the re-furb engines have a balance pipe - fitted in the re-furb? - have you a photo? Spoke to Shawplan at the Stafford show.... guy was interested in the JLTRT kit and in your work with the motor. I'm not sure about the plate on the underside, it doesn't look like part of the moulding process, but it could be. I've left it on mine as it can't be seen anyway. I have got some photos of pipework between the two tanks, I'll have a look later and see if I've got any. I haven't seen Brian of Shawplan to talk to for ages, I'll have to point him in the direction of the blog, if he hasn't seen it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 I have got some photos of pipework between the two tanks, I'll have a look later and see if I've got any. Thank you. I haven't seen Brian of Shawplan to talk to for ages, I'll have to point him in the direction of the blog, if he hasn't seen it. The guy to whom we spoke at Stafford said something like... "that was my idea, I put Martin up to it". I got the impression that he had not seen the recent events as recorded in the posts to the blog. regards, Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The guy to whom we spoke at Stafford said something like... "that was my idea, I put Martin up to it". I got the impression that he had not seen the recent events as recorded in the posts to the blog. I'll have to have a word with him, that's not quite how I remember it! Here's the balance pipe (something that I've forgotten to do, thus far, on mine!) : The pipe is closer to the side where the No.1 end would be to the right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Thank you, never ceases to amaze just what detail photos are out there.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard carr Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Hi Richard, The 37 is being built by Peter.... I get the fun task of sorting the details. As far as I can tell, the build will be "just out of the box" with some changes to the body sides for a re-furb engine. The detailing is made somewhat awkward in that the engine which becam 37408 started out as a non-boiler engine.... hence questions about the original tanks, the fitting or otherwise of the boiler exhaust port and any changes that might have been made to the fillers/ drains along the underside of the skirt. Any ideas on those questions? The inner bogie castings will go back to Laurie. Peter has ordered ABC motor bogies, geared for 80mph max, so the beast ought to sit down, growl and go. As to sound, definitely although the question of chipset is open at this time. SWD offers just a generic 37/0 whereas Howes offers a 37/4... probably going to be two ESU chips for 4mm motors with one being a Howes-supplied sound decoder.. regards, Graham I'm using SWD loksound v4, I am only powering one bogie as with 3 axles driven that is plenty and a lot cheaper. I have just reprofiled some slaters wheels for now, are you doing that. I was thinking of getting some S7 diesel wheels made as there is someone in Norfolk offering finescale diesel wheels at reasonable prices. Be careful using the ABC gears bogies as the brass brake castings fit very close to the wheels, not a problem with a resin bogie centre, but it is with a brass one. I have had some more brake adjusters etched that are a little longer to push the brakes well clear of the wheels. It is amazing how much detail there is on a detail, mine are going to be 37065, 37226, 37255 and 37228 all circa 1981, all of which have the additional fuel tank instead of the water tank. What changes are you going to make to the body sides ? I thought that JLTRT had already done this if you asked them for the right kit in the first place. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 Be careful using the ABC gears bogies as the brass brake castings fit very close to the wheels.... I have had some more brake adjusters etched that are a little longer to push the brakes well clear of the wheels. I shall keep this in mind... I have been thinking of replacing the brake blocks with an alternative, non-conducting, material. No ideas as yet. It is amazing how much detail there is on a detail, mine are going to be 37065, 37226, 37255 and 37228 all circa 1981, all of which have the additional fuel tank instead of the water tank. Peter wants to do 37408 - the engine was built without a boiler... and I would like to know what tanks were fitted originally. As for the model, the JLTRT tanks are going to be used with some modification to pipework and gauges. What changes are you going to make to the body sides ? I thought that JLTRT had already done this if you asked them for the right kit in the first place. An interesting question and one which gives an interesting interpretation to the JLTRT mnemonic. As far as I know, JLTRT has a range of "front ends" for the different nose /cab styles plus a range of castings for the subtle changes to the bufferbeams / cabs / bogies. However, I undertand that there is just one set of sides - fits all. So a 37/4 needs some changes to represent what was done during re-furb.... for example:- sorting the platework associated with boiler details. Pugsley has given indications of what needs to be done in his blog about building a 37/4. regads, Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard carr Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Graham What was the original number for 37408, I will have a look in some old platform 5/rcts books that should have the details. Has Peter made a start on this yet ? If he hasn't then my experience of building 3 of the bodies is this. Do not glue the bulkheads to the cab front before you fit the cab to the body as the bulkheads can be a bit too wide and this makes it difficult to get a good join between the cab and the body. The instructions do tell you to do this, either leave the bulkhead loose as you fit the cab to the body or fit the bulkhead after, this is not as difficult as it seems. There should be a seamless joint between the body sides and the roof. This is more difficult to achieve than might be imagined all mine required filling and considerable rubbing down to achieve this. Provided the cab bulk hasn't distorted anything getting a good join between the cab and the body isn't too difficult, but a little filler maybe required. Other than that mine are all progressing well and I hope to have the first up and running within a month. Where do I find Pugsley's thread on 37/4s as I have one of those to build for someone else. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 Where do I find Pugsley's thread on 37/4s as I have one of those to build for someone else. Martin started the build here and continued here.... I guess that you know this now from the time at which you viewed Martin's profile. regards, Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 Has Peter made a start on this yet ? If he hasn't then my experience of building 3 of the bodies is this. Do not glue the bulkheads to the cab front before you fit the cab to the body as the bulkheads can be a bit too wide and this makes it difficult to get a good join between the cab and the body. The instructions do tell you to do this, either leave the bulkhead loose as you fit the cab to the body or fit the bulkhead after, this is not as difficult as it seems. What you say seems obvious - after reading the text. There are two bulkheads for each cab, one at the front and under the nose with one at the back and close to the cab / body / roof joins. If either bulkhead is going to give trouble then I would expect that to be the rear bulkhead - which caused trouble for you? There should be a seamless joint between the body sides and the roof. This is more difficult to achieve than might be imagined all mine required filling and considerable rubbing down to achieve this. I am not sure that I understand this comment... you seem to be saying that the horizontal joint between the roof and each bodyside is a difficult area to get correct. Others have indicated that the problem joint is between the roof of the cab and the central roof section. Which joints caused trouble? Entirely separate area of the kit.... any idea as to the colour of the seats on the 37/4 engines when re-furbished? and as to the fitting of seats with arm rests? regards, Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 What was the original number for 37408, I will have a look in some old platform 5/rcts books that should have the details. 37408 was built as D6989..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard carr Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Graham Yes the rear bulkhead is the problem one, I call the front one the control desk, but its only a name. The join between the roof and the body side, it is not so much a problem it just requires a lot more work than I imagined and on the first one I thought I had got it just nice until I primed the body and found I still had a lot of work to do. The join between the cab and the roof isn't too hard partly because there is a clear "join line" on the real thing, others though may have a different view. Sorry but I don't know the colour of the seats on a 37/4 I will be having a look around to find out and will let you know if I do. Have youo ;looked at Brian Daniels photos, there is an awful lot there, you can get to them from any of his posts on RMweb. I will post some pictures when I get back from the US at the end of next week. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Purely out of interest... if this was a kettle I would know how to get an answer to the question....as this is a diseasel I need to ask. [1] how does one find out when /where 37408 visited works? [2] on re-furb 37408 was painted in large-logo-blue livery.... what other liveries were carried by 37408 after being re-furbished? thank you, Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard carr Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Purely out of interest... if this was a kettle I would know how to get an answer to the question....as this is a diseasel I need to ask. [1] how does one find out when /where 37408 visited works? [2] on re-furb 37408 was painted in large-logo-blue livery.... what other liveries were carried by 37408 after being re-furbished? thank you, Graham I think this will tell everything you need to know, in fact there is too much to be honest http://www.c37lg.co.uk/fleet.aspx?strnumber=37408 A quick search of the net suggests that it only carried large logo livery and ews red. Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Thank you RIchard, I went through the CL37 fleet history page for 37408 last night.... almost boring in the repetitive nature of the entires. I was puzzled by how little was said about works visits and hence opportunities for either a refresh or a change in livery. From the dated photos that I have found on the net the engine seemed to be in large logo blue with westie until at least the mid-late 1990s, see here. The ESW livery appears only in photos of the engine in the Welsh Valleys... and the fleet history shows several periods when the engine was in that location. I guess what I am really asking is... when did the engine get painted in EWS red? regards, Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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