Why 3mm/ft a short FAQ about 3mm/ft.

[Phil Copleston]

Hello all, sorry for my late reply.

I'm sorry if my earlier comments saddened you Tiptonian, and if I annoyed anyone else. I didn't mean to offend. I'm a 3mm Society member too and believe 3-mil is a great scale.

My only reason for bringing up the subject of Scale Three is that I think it's a great concept worth reconsidering, and therefore a valid topic for discussion in this forum. Proto standards are proven to work well in 4mm scale and in 3mm the absolute measurements are no smaller than the established 2mmSF dimensions, so Scale Three should be quite workable, I think.

Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting we add another gauge to 3mm modelling, as Scale Three is not specifically a 'gauge' as such, but a set of standards derived from prototype practice that can be applied to modelling any prototype gauge.

I have nothing against the other 3mm standards or gauges (although seeing it from the perspective of the rest of the hobby, 13.5 feels like a retrograde step to me), if that is what you choose to suit your modelling, but I see a lot of good reasons to have a positive debate about moving 3mm modelling closer to the prototype by exploring the possibilities of Scale Three.

Phil

Edited November 26, 2015 by Phil Copleston

[smyles1]

I saw one of Peter Bossom's finescale 14.2mm layouts at an exhibition a couple of years ago and was hooked. I didn't consider 12mm or 13.5mm and went straight into 14.2mm. There is such tremendous support in the 3mm Society that modelling in 14.2mm gauge has not been a problem mainly because of the superb track bases and availability of wheels and kits. If you are hesitating because of the three different gauges I say go for 14.2, you wont regret it!

Mike

[Mac]

Kat.

 

Thanks for the interesting introduction to 3mm scale.

It's certainly made me reconsider the benefits it offers.

 

I've sent you a PMail re' some points I'd like to ask you.

 

Mac.

[put polly on]

I have some old peco tt wagons and a few tri-ang tt bogies, I would like to re wheel them to 14.2mm gauge .With the bogies is it just a matter of filing down the inside of the frames ? Will the peco chassis accept the longer axles ? was thinking of using the 3smr wheel sets.

[Katier]

Best thing to do is phone up 3SMR, Malcolm is a helpful chap and hopefully will know the answer.

[MartinWales]

I have some old peco tt wagons and a few tri-ang tt bogies, I would like to re wheel them to 14.2mm gauge .With the bogies is it just a matter of filing down the inside of the frames ? Will the peco chassis accept the longer axles ? was thinking of using the 3smr wheel sets.

 

Why not just use the bodies and rechassis them at the same time-Parkside and Slaters etc are commercially available and the overall look will be transformed, even going so far as to fir W-irons if you so wish

[xplor3mill]

Lets not forget that this is the 3MM Society, not a gauge specific society. Wheels and standards are published to aid all members. No squabbling between members regarding whats wrong or right, or not that I've seen after 12 odd years of membership. Indeed it often happens that finer scale modellers help out those that are not so skilled.

 

Being a scale society rather than gauge is what sets 3mm apart from all the others.

[Katier]

Being a scale society rather than gauge is what sets 3mm apart from all the others.

 

Indeed and I think the recent Railway Modeller series covered all the bases.. including 14.2mm/21mm dual gauge!!

[xplor3mill]

It is a good few years since I had anything to do with 3mm modelling but I don't recall clearances for outside cylinder locos ever being raised as an issue. After all, the difference between 13.5mm and 14.2mm is only a third of a millimetre on each side of the loco. 13.5mm wasn't really regarded as a mainstream option then, it was more an idea that had never caught on. Maybe opinions have changed since.

 

 

umm I think if you do your sums right the difference each side is over 0.4mm, which to a loco builder in 3mm is a nice advantage.

[xplor3mill]

I am new to RMWeb and I am surprised that 3mm has not had a mention on it until relativly very recently. ( how can you run a web site for so long and not mention the premier scale is beyound me) I would however, make one very, very, critical observation of a fairly well written FAQ and that is the mention of TT which no self respecting 3mm modeller would ever associate themself with. (2.5mm to the foot yes 3mm - NO) No where even within the the charter of the 3mm Society does is there a mention of TT. Let us get one thing clear from the begining TT and 3mm should not be mentioned in the same breath.

 

Also you did not mention one or two things that are necessary and essential for a modeller to model in 3mm. If you can't solder or more to the point you are not willing to learn how to solder then 3mm is not for you. If you cant build a brass or white metal loco or more to the point not willing to learn how to build brass or white metal loco then 3mm is not for you. If you cant construct a soldered point or a piece of track or more to the point not willing to learn how to construct a soldered point or a piece of track then 3mm is not for you.

 

Alas there are even those that will coresponde and even try to convince you that 3mm can be modelled to exact scale standards (S3 or Scale 3) and that too is a myth that was dispelled long ago by the early 3mm Society founders, wheel standards are not the problem, they never have been nor ever will be - they are the easy bit - the difficult bit is building outside valve gear steam locos with scale valve gear to so flimsy thicknesses that are mechanicaly useless and that are just physically impossible. 14.2 suffers very badly from just this (just as S3 would do if it were possible) so much so it's that the adherents of 14.2 have turned to the same solutions that 2mm fine scale members have used for very much longer, they cheat, and they widen the valve gear to suit so that the locos are no longer fine scale but sort of fine scale coarse scale! The attraction and advantage therefore to model in 13.5 gauge in 3mm should now become obvious to the normal right thinking modeller in 3mm in fact as obvious as a working modeller in 18mm gauge (EM) in 4mm. 13.5 still cheats there is no question of that but it cheats above board and in a much fairer fashion than 14.2 and gives the loco builder a better a much easier task.

 

If you wish to model to exact standards then the easiest scale by far, in the smaller scales, is S Gauge. Here you stand a chance because of the extra size and space and thus compensation is sooo much easier with all that room. I have built several locos for customers in this scale but there is no challange in them compared with 3mm.

 

The last thing you forgot to mention Kat is that if you can master 3mm then you can master any scale, anyone can take a model out of a box and make it work. You can't do that in 3mm and that is what makes 3mm and those that model in 3mm a cut above the rest and so special.

[The Dorset Wanderer]

Having run a 3mm Area Group for several years, it would seem that the willingness to impart knowledge is boundless. It is getting people to participate. No matter that all model railway is basically the same with a different scale ruler.

The great thing about 3mm for me is the fact that I have built it -with help in some cases- myself, and this is the most satisfying thing. The satisfaction of seeing my creations run far outweigh taking something out of a box, the reason why I stopped 4mm some while ago.

Sadly, it would seem, few wish to build or learn how to despite offering to hold teach ins to help. But the wishlists keep coming when there is often a kit available for their particular want.Plus there is a commonly held misconception that a fully fitted workshop and myriad of tools are needed-They are not. One of our goup has converted Class 31 diesels to 14.2 mm gauge with little more than a few files and a cordless drill held in a vice and a lot of patience- it can be done.

We will keep our small group going and exhibiting our layouts. The plans for the 3mm Society 50th anniversary are well in hand so that means several early morning starts and nights away not to mention finishing those promised exhibits.

Steve

[StuartM]

Having read through all the previous posts would I be right in thinking that if I wished to try my hand at TT the current gauge which is considered standard would be 14.2mm

 

If I wished to build a class 03/4 are all the parts readily available?

 

Rgds,

Stuart

[mike morley]

I decided some years ago that if I was starting again in finescale I would go for 3mm.

 

The opportunity to do that has now arisen, but closer investigation of what if available has made me realise that a high percentage of kits are "etchings only" with no indication as to where (or even if!) the castings needed to complete them might be obtained.  The nearest there is to a clue is a rare picture of a loco on the Worsley Works website with a caption that states the boiler fittings were cast by Person A from masters made by Person B (whoever they are).  The equally rare pictures of completed "etchings only" kits on the 3SMR website don't even go that far.

The rarity of photographs of completed kits also makes me uneasy.

[fallen]

I am a newcomer too but have you looked at the 3mm society website - their kits seem to include castings.

 

http://www.3mmsociety.org.uk/Catalogue/3%20mm%20loco%20kits.pdf

 

Not tried any yet though.

 

Frank

[mike morley]

Yes I have.  My concern is the high percentage of kits that do not include castings because, inevitably, the locos that interest me - C2z, E4 and Wainwright H - are amongst them.

[The Dorset Wanderer]

Membership of the 3mm Society opens up a wealth of knowledge and resources, there are a lot of Southern castings available. At £20 a year it is worth it for the house journal, Mixed Traffic, alone.

Where abouts are you? There is probably an area group near you which would be pleased to share their knowledge.

Steve

Edited March 6, 2014 by The Dorset Wanderer

[Katier]

Most kits do include Castings, especially those on the 3mm shop, I think the only ones that have none or are limited in what they do have are the Worsley Works and Bill Bedford ones, but both of those supply etchings in multiple scales and are very much a case of scratch-aid kits.

 

All the Finney and Smith, 3mm Society and most, if not all, of the 3SMR kits include castings.

[Silverfox17]

On 05/03/2014 at 18:22, mike morley said:

The equally rare pictures of completed "etchings only" kits on the 3SMR website don't even go that far.

The rarity of photographs of completed kits also makes me uneasy.

Some of the photos are of 4mm models from the likes of Bachmann/Hornby or even a full size loco, none of the actual parts themselves.

[Silverfox17]

On 28/09/2012 at 00:15, xplor3mill said:

Let us get one thing clear from the begining TT and 3mm should not be mentioned in the same breath.

 

Sorry but to me 3mm is TT which is what was brought about by Tri-ang and that is what it will always be.  Tri-ang brought TT out as TableTop, hence TT, and built to 3mm so it is the same as far as I am concerned.

[whart57]

11 hours ago, Silverfox17 said:

Sorry but to me 3mm is TT which is what was brought about by Tri-ang and that is what it will always be.  Tri-ang brought TT out as TableTop, hence TT, and built to 3mm so it is the same as far as I am concerned.

 Triang created the scale of 3mm to the foot, or at least brought it to life. "TT" already existed as 1/10" to the foot in America. The whole sorry mess of OO/HO and Brits doing their own thing exists in the smaller scale too.

 

Now personally I have no problem with using the terms TT and 3mm scale interchangeably, except when specifying things. As with OO and HO there is a noticeable difference in size between British TT and International TT. A diesel loco made by one of the East European TT manufacturers will look underfed next to a Triang A1A-A1A, but many don't care about that. If they don't then I don't on their behalf either, but the fact there are two different scales does need to be pointed out to the new and unwary.

[Silverfox17]

All I was saying is that it is not illegal to mention TT and 3mm at the same time which seems to be the case from a few people.  Those people are usually the ones who will not accept anyone else's ideas etc and think everyone has to do things their way or not at all. 

[whart57]

On your own layout you can do what you like and call things by whatever term you like. However if you are selling something then you need to describe things accurately and there are certain general rules that should be followed, one of which is that "TT" generally means the international standard of 1:120 scale on 12mm gauge track, the semi-official term for the British variant is "TT-3". If you couple "TT" with "Triang", as in "Triang TT", then that is OK because it's clear you are referring to the range of products produced in Margate in the late 50s and early 60s. I don't care if you describe your modelling on here as TT, that's your choice, but if you are offering something to me for sale then I want a more accurate terminology.

 

Then we must reflect that if Simon Kohler had gone ahead with reviving TT at Hornby that "Hornby TT" would most likely have been a different scale to "Triang TT"

Edited December 29, 2020 by whart57

[Silverfox17]

TT-3 was a term coined and used by Peco.

 

Bec, Esanel, Gem kits all just referred to TT or TT gauge with no specific scale mentioned. Superquick kits were labeled TT although they did put 1/100 on the wrapper. 

[whart57]

Maybe they did but that was over 50 years ago

[DCB]

 Meanwhile the rest of the world draws and models in 1:100 scale, it's  like ancient theologians arguing over how many angels fit on the head of a pin,    TT is 12 mm gauge, just chuck away the Triang bodies fit Romford 00 axles and use the chassis for small OO locos, its a lot easier than trying to agree anything to do with TT/TT3/3mm etc.