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WW2 War Department Loco Colours





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#1 Matchless

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 21:09

Hope this is in the right place! Can anyone help please? Having search the internet I still can't find the answer I'm looking for; what colour were War Department locomotives finished in during WW2? For example, the Hunslet WD Austerity 0-6-0ST (J94). I would like to include one in my WW2 layout and would like to get the colour right.

Thanks, Dave.

Edited by Matchless, 23 January 2012 - 21:20 .


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#2 TonyA

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 22:45

Dave,

The answer is similar to the replies regarding the 8F locos here.

http://www.rmweb.co....er-8f-liveries/

It all depends when and where you are interested in.

According to Tourret's Allied Locomotives of the Second World War, the Austerity 0-6-0ST were originally delivered in khaki, but later this changed to green. However, some locomotives at Longmoor may have been painted black.

Given some time, I could search my files of the World War Two Railway Study Group's newsletters for any specific sightings if I knew your exact requirements.

Tony

#3 Trains&armour

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 23:12

Good question! I've been researching this subject for my WW2 Railway and there isn't a definitive answer. It all depents on the timeframe and function of the engines. Wartime black, grey, desert sand, khaki green and dark green are colours that were used on WD engines. Wartime black for engines that were used in Britain itself, and desert sand during 1940-1943 for engines that were supposed to be shipped overseas to the war zones. In 1943 the overseas export colour was changed to khaki green, primarily for use in Europe. But al lot more engines were built than could be used in the war zones at first, and some of these engines were used in their warzone livery in Britain before being sent overseas (if sent at all!)
On the subject of the J94, see this site: http://www.irsociety...in_Hunslets.htm
Colours for the first batches were khaki, later on the were painted dark green. But what shade of khaki or dark green? The Scottish Railway Preservation Society has a restored J94 in WD livery: http://www.scot-rail...to/scaled/9107/ But this seems to be painted in a bronze green, which is, when compared to the khaki green used on British armoured vehicles, much too yellow for my taste. Another one is on the Isle of Wight: http://www.flickr.co...nes/3499918211/, which is in army green, and compares well with the 00 WD j94 that was marketed by Dapol in the nineties, although with post war WD numbers (and probably a postwar shade of army green...). So take your pick, but make it green!

Edit: It seems Tony beat me to it1

Edited by Trains&armour, 23 January 2012 - 23:14 .


#4 Matchless

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 23:23

Hi Tony

Thanks for that. I did do a search of the forum but got no results, maybe I haven't got the hang of it yet. Anyway, my layout is loosely based on a village station in the East Yorkshire Wolds "Somewhere in England... 1944' as the saying goes.

Now the factual bit; During WW2 the old manor house near the village (Middleton on the Wolds) was used as the area HQ and training base for the British Resistance (a secret network of volunteer units prepared to be Britain's last line of defence in the event of an invasion). It seems reasonable to assume that the station was used by personnel working at, or attending, the Base HQ. It can also be assumed that supplies for the Base were brought in by rail.

Back to the fictional part. I would like to include goods movements in and out of the station goods yard and, given the above, would like to include a WD locomotive. Hence the question. The 'local' traffic would have been LNER but War Department deliveries could well have been via War Department locomotives, given the covert nature of the freight and a touch of artistic licence. ;)

Dave

Edit: Thanks Trains&armour (sorry don't know your name) Your post arrived when I was writting this post :scratchhead:

Having read your post, and looked at the links, weathered matt WD green it is...

Cheers, Dave.

Edited by Matchless, 23 January 2012 - 23:46 .


#5 bbishop

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 08:49

Guys,

Given that the paint wasn't prepared for the purpose of slapping onto steam locomotives, the effect of industrial polultants, the effect of burning coal by the engine, little varnishing (if at all) etc; how stable were the paint colours? In other words, surely any indeterminate shade of sand, green or grey would be valid.

Bill

#6 Trains&armour

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 09:55

Guys,

Given that the paint wasn't prepared for the purpose of slapping onto steam locomotives, the effect of industrial polultants, the effect of burning coal by the engine, little varnishing (if at all) etc; how stable were the paint colours? In other words, surely any indeterminate shade of sand, green or grey would be valid.

Bill

Yes, should have added some comment along those lines to my post. It certainly is valid for British armour. And as armour modelling being my main obesession (please don't hit me.....), i,ve researched british armour colours thoroughly. And the end verdict is that you can get away with almost any shade of the official wartime camouflage colours! :P WD engines running around in Britain would have been subjected to less wear an tear than armour in a warzone, but still maintaince was minimal as was cleaning..The official paint would sometimes have been in short supply and quality control would also have been inconsistent. Add that to the fact that matt paints are more susceptible to dirt and you get a wide range of shades. So, for a J94 a dull matt green will be perfectly acceptable.

Sierd Jan

#7 Matchless

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 11:18

Thanks Jan

To the best of your knowledge, did the War Department locos have any markings on them?

#8 Trains&armour

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 11:45

Thanks Jan

To the best of your knowledge, did the War Department locos have any markings on them?


Yes, Marked W ↑ D and most of them with a 75xxx number. Markings would have been in yellow. And In this respect the scottish J94 is a good example.

Sierd Jan

#9 kevinlms

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 12:01

Yes, Marked W ↑ D and most of them with a 75xxx number. Markings would have been in yellow. And In this respect the scottish J94 is a good example.

Sierd Jan


Did the arrow represent which way was up? :stinker:

Seriously, what did it signify?

Kevin Martin

#10 Trains&armour

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 12:38

Did the arrow represent which way was up? :stinker:

Seriously, what did it signify?

Kevin Martin


Well, as these engines were to be shipped to warzones with the fog of war at its thickest it would've been very helpful to know which way was up :D . But seriously, the broad up arrow has been used since the middle ages to mark British goverment property. Its origins are obscure, but it could be related to the most fearsome medieval British weapon, the longbow.

Sierd Jan

#11 kevinlms

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 12:54

Well, as these engines were to be shipped to warzones with the fog of war at its thickest it would've been very helpful to know which way was up :D . But seriously, the broad up arrow has been used since the middle ages to mark British goverment property. Its origins are obscure, but it could be related to the most fearsome medieval British weapon, the longbow.

Sierd Jan


That makes sense.
Now I think about it, it probably was an illiterate symbol at least historically. Many railway companies used them (LNWR for example used a white diamond on their wagons) up until about 1910.

Kevin Martin







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