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4 CIG for Newhaven Harbour





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#51 Colin parks

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 15:29

Hi MK1EMU.

Welcome to RMweb.

A BIG opportunity to see some of the Masters of railway modelling, at work.

Like me,...Watch,.. and Learn.

Cheers .


Masters?! Not me I hope. I am a model-bodger and proud of it.

Colin
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#52 Colin parks

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 15:31

Colin

With your project in mind I've had a quick look through one of my hard drives for scanned images of CIGs. I came up with three reasonable shots which may be of use to you:


East Croydon; December 1



Redhill; Summer 2000


Basingstoke; Summer 2000

I know I have loads more, but not all have been scanned. I'll fire up my old Mac over the weekend and have a look there.


Thanks for posting the pictures Trevellan.

That last one has some very good references for side protection boards as well. (Two for the price of one!)

Colin

Edited by Colin parks, 10 February 2012 - 15:33 .


#53 Ceptic

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 16:22

the DTC coupled to the MBS has 3 1st and 1 2nd class compartment.
they would seem to have had this from new, pics of green units (with yellow 1st class stripe) in 1966 on p.48/49 of 'southern EMUs 1948-83' (marsden/ian allan)
it states that the extra 2nd class compt. was to 1st class dimensions (7'2" presumably)

the EMU diagram book shows DTC as dia. 453 and the 2nd class compt. as an 8-seater (arm rests not fitted/removed/sewn-up)
the other DTC is dia.452, with 4 6-seater compts.

does seem a bit odd in that they seem to have been built with both ends having 4 1st class compts.

another comment i've seen about the DTCs is that they were unusual in that 1st class passengers had to go through 2nd class to get to the toilet, convention seems to have been 1st class accomodation is nearest the toilet (c.f. the layout of the VEP DTCs, with 1st class at the inner end)


Indeed so, keefer,

As built, the DTCs were identical. The DTC nearest the MBS ('A' end) had the inner-most compartment designated 2nd class, although this remained at 1st class proportions and comfort(?).

To summarise a relevant paragraph in the S.E.G 1979 booklet, 'Southern Region Multiple-Unit Trains' by G.D. Beechcroft, he says that (My interpretation) 'the second class seats were to be boosted by downgrading one of the first class compartments in the other ('B' end) DTCs, due to the earlier mis-reading the requirement for first class seating'
Unfortunately, the 1979 'ABC' (the latest, to hand), and later 'Platform 5' books, all refer to the original 1st. to 2nd seating ratio.
I.e.
DTC ('A'end) 18f/36s + MBS 56s + TSO 72s + DTC 24f/28s.

The re-classification of the 'B' end DTC's outer compartment is resolutely depicted in Trevellan's lower two photos.

At the moment, I'm searching through various references, to find the ealiest record / photo of same.

If lucky, I''ll be back.

Cheers All.

Edited by Ceptic, 10 February 2012 - 16:42 .

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#54 Colin parks

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 18:07

Hi Ceptic,

Thanks for the above information. What skinflints BR were indeed: removing the arm rests in the downgraded 1st class compartment!

I am still wondering if the two DTCLs in each CIG formation had yellow stripes of different lengths. From what you say, the DTCL with only three first class compartments would have had a stripe a scale 72" shorter than the other end.

Colin

#55 5Bel

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 19:06

Hi Colin,

The yellow stripes were definitely different lengths. I always used to look for the 2nd class compartment in the DTCL if I was travelling on a 4Cig, much more comfortable. I have just booked leave for the DEMU showcase, so will make myself known to you (as long as your Gronk is behaving!)

Cheers for now, Ian.
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#56 BernardTPM

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 20:28

Interesting how the position of the 2nd/standard class compartments changed. Originally it was one of those nearest to the 2nd class saloon, later it was the two outer ones with doors - presumably the first class passengers had complained about draughts!
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#57 Colin parks

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 21:47

Hi Colin,

The yellow stripes were definitely different lengths. I always used to look for the 2nd class compartment in the DTCL if I was travelling on a 4Cig, much more comfortable. I have just booked leave for the DEMU showcase, so will make myself known to you (as long as your Gronk is behaving!)

Cheers for now, Ian.


Well that has cleared up the yellow stripe mystery then Ian.

I can't guarantee to have the CIG ready for the DEMU Showcase, but I'll try. I have had a CD contaning images of a 3 CIG through the post from Gareth of Replica Railways. (Thanks Gareth!)There will be no excuses for getting the details wrong on the underframes now.

As for that gronk at Nottingham, it was affected by a short in the track caused by heat/expansion closing up an insulating joint. Please say hello this time, unless you see real smoke emanating from something...
Colin

#58 Southernman46

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 11:07

Masters?! Not me I hope. I am a model-bodger and proud of it.

Colin


I wish I could bodge like you :clapping:

#59 Colin parks

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 11:07

I wish I could bodge like you :clapping:


Well here's some more bodging:

#60 Colin parks

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 11:24

Progress has been slow I have to admit. After the speedy installation on the electrics, detailing has begun. As luck would have it, Old Lugger is occupied with almost the same work on his class 73 motor bogies at the moment. The 4 CIG has no sand boxes of course, so details which would be hidden behind them on a '73 have to be added on this model.

IMG_2790 (1280x954).jpg

More good fortune came with the realisation that the Lima mould-maker had at least added some kind of cylinder detail. Don't ask me what all the bits are truly called, I don't know. The photos from Gareth of Replica Railways have helped in the understanding of how the linkages would be modelled. What you see here is a 'dumbed-down' version of the brake gear and components at the ends of the bogie side frames. The brake gear is much simplified and set where it should be, more or less, in relation to the axle boxes and not quite in line with the wheel treads. An easy cheat for some detailing of the bogie side frames was to stick a pin into the plastic and make holes with raised edges. On the real thing, these holes were cast into the Mk.6 bogie side frames and would take the fittings found on class 73 locos, such as cable conduit clips etc.

IMG_2791 (1280x1160).jpg

Only the side frames of the motorised bogie have been detailed as yet. The other bogie is a different matter: some fool has wired it up so that it can't be taken off the chassis!

Edit: There should be a slot in the brake shoe linkage under the r/h brake shoe. I couldn't see how to model this without using brass and fretting the slot out - so it has been ignored

Colin


Edited by Colin parks, 02 July 2015 - 20:27 .

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#61 Ceptic

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 19:50

The earliest reference to a 'B' end DTC with 18f / 36s seating, was found amongst the small print of the 1987 Platform 5 booklet.

DTC 76859, LOT 30827, York 1972. Ran in NSE liveried Cl.421/4 'Facelifted' set No. 1813(ex-7431).

Funny thing is, The combined volume details show it as 'B', while the booklet shows it as 'A'. Also the 1987 booklet shows the 18f / 36s seating ratio for all DTCLs within the class, whereas, the 1988 version shows the 'B' ends all having the 24f / 28s ratio, except DCTLs Nos. 76859 & 76860 ??

Confustng, Innit ?

Good job you're not building one of these... Eh, Colin ?

Edited 14/2, to correct typos

Edited by Ceptic, 14 February 2012 - 13:51 .


#62 Colin parks

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 21:01

Thanks to Ceptic for the information re. A & B end seating classifications.

Talking of Ceptic, here is a photo of my progress on the MBSO ends. At first, it seemed as though the Bachmann corridor connectors could be adapted for use, but no such luck - they are of a different profile to the CIG's ones. I have ordered some black plasticard for making the buffing plates of the (six inner end) connectors as they will hopefully be sprung and remain in contact with each other. As you will see from the photo the corridor connections will definitely be in two pieces, with the moving parts being fitted after painting.


IMG_2796 (1280x1031).jpg

At first I tried attaching the shroud (?) onto to the overlay on the end. This looked unsatisfactory, so, using a Bachmann connector as a pattern, the overlay was cut to leave a recess in which to mount the 'shroud'. These pesky things have a lip on the leading edge, which has been represented by 10thou. square strips of plasticard.
They will be sanded when the joint has vented off to round the edge somewhat. With the benefit of hindsight, the other four inner end overlays will have the cutout for the connectors made before they are attached to the ends.

Colin
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#63 zarniwhoop

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 22:39

Colin, just in case they show anything useful (unlikely), my pics of the Lymington 3-CIGs are at www.flickr.com/photos/61907329@N03/sets/72157626427619747/ (NOT inserted as a link, the software rmweb is using converts it to a 'media' link and pretends it needs a plugin I don't have!)

I continue to watch with awe, although I'll be very disappointed if your passengers have to jump between the coaches ;-)

[ edit - looks as if the http part gets automagically trashed to a media link ]

ĸen

Edited by zarniwhoop, 12 February 2012 - 22:41 .


#64 The Evil Bus Driver

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 10:54

Hi Colin. Would it be worth constructing a jig to put the shrouds together? Might make it easier as you could then hold them in place while they set and you could just stick them on to the coach after.

#65 Colin parks

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 11:49

Hi Colin. Would it be worth constructing a jig to put the shrouds together? Might make it easier as you could then hold them in place while they set and you could just stick them on to the coach after.


Hi there TEBD,

Yes, the same idea has crossed my mind. What I am going to do is make a metal guide/jig for cutting the profile in the end overlays (well, the four that are remaining to be done). This should also serve as a guide for cutting the second part of the connectors. I have never ever made a corridor connection in my life before, so any suggestions are gratefully received. I looked through David Jenkinson's 'Carriage Building Made Easy'. He made certainly made it look easy! I am sort of copying his methods, although in 4mm I don't think that mounting the moving part of the gangway on soft foam will work. I hope that a couple of springs of the kind used for sprung buffers will do the job. Pity I can't get away with just black cardboard bellows-type connectors on a CIG!

I am well aware that the exact alignment of these parts between coaches is going to be crucial too. However, I have noticed on pictures of the 3 CIG that Gareth (of Replica Railways) sent me and on pictures from Ceptic, that these shrouds looked as though there was evidence of them being knocked about a bit by the moving part of the gangway. I could be wrong, but that is what it looks like. Not that it is an excuse for sloppy work you understand!

I have also noticed that the cab end gangway connections lean slightly forwards. I shall enjoy representing this feature!

Colin Edited for sloppy editing of text.

Edited by Colin parks, 13 February 2012 - 11:50 .

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#66 Kelly

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 12:11

Another interesting thread Colin. Will keep an eye on how things progress.

Of interest might be the photos taken when myself and Natalie visited the Electric Railway Museum here in Coventry last year for their open day. I'll have to find where they are and upload them to picasa/flickr/here. Never got around to uploading photos taken at events after the Members Day last year, so lots to sort and upload!

#67 Colin parks

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 19:50

Another interesting thread Colin. Will keep an eye on how things progress.

Of interest might be the photos taken when myself and Natalie visited the Electric Railway Museum here in Coventry last year for their open day. I'll have to find where they are and upload them to picasa/flickr/here. Never got around to uploading photos taken at events after the Members Day last year, so lots to sort and upload!


Hi Kelly,

I'll try and keep the topic interesting. It is slow progress today (well none!), although I did give Pete Harvey the go-ahead to produce the etched window frames for the CIG this morning.

Re pictures: Yes, please post any photos of CIGs on this topic.

Colin

#68 Natalie

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 21:12

I took a selection of the now scrapped but was restored and operational 4BIG (7059) whilst it was at the GCR in its various guises. I took some of the underframes too- I will locate them on my hard drive and upload them for you. There is also a refurbished 4CEP TSO before it was swapped for the BIG TRB..

#69 Ceptic

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 15:25

Hi Colin. Going back to the lengths of the Yellow stripe.

Keefer, in his post # 45 presumes the difference, in length, to be 7'-2".
In your post, # 54, you wrote 72"(6') as being the difference.

Scaling the 'Book', (I know I shouldn't do this) the vernier reads 27mm (scale 6'-9")
between partitions.

The 4-CEPs', TC's 1st. class compartments are stated as being 7'-2" / 2nd. cl. 6'-3", between partitions (Scource, Ian Allan's ABC, 'British Railways Coaches' 1/6/1958).
S.Reg. Mk.1 High Density Emu stock, 1st. cl. dimensions varied between 6'-2 1/2" (2-HAP DTC), and 6'-11" (4-VEP DTC)

Something to watch out for ? It's a pity I didn't take any internal measurements, when I had the chance.

For references to the different lengths of the stripe, have a look at photo # 10in the 'Central Section' of Michael Welch's 'A Southern Electric Album', and photos on pages 70 & 71 of the same author's 'Slam Doors on the Southern' (both Capital Transport books). The units are shown in BR(S) Green livery, which shows up the stripe more clearly.
I'm pretty much sure that these positions (and lengths) were carried forward into Blue and Grey days.

All the Best, Frank.

Edited to correct mistake regarding 4-CEP and to add further info.

Edited by Ceptic, 16 April 2012 - 10:55 .


#70 Kelly

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 18:09

Colin, I have uploaded the ERM Open Day pictures now. However having had a quick look at the stock list they have on their site, they don't have a CIG, but perhaps some of the photos will be of interest anyway.

Edit: photos uploaded, correctly linked to now, do'h!

Edited by Kelly, 14 February 2012 - 19:12 .

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#71 Colin parks

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 18:37

Hi Colin. Going back to the lengths of the Yellow stripe.

Keefer, in his post # 45 presumes the difference, in length, to be 7'-2".
In your post, # 54, you wrote 72"(6') as being the difference.

Scaling the 'Book', (I know I shouldn't do this) the vernier reads 27mm (scale 6'-9")
between partitions.

The 4-CEPs', TC's 1st. class compartments are stated as being 6'-8" between partitions (Scource, Ian Allan's ABC, 'British Railways Coaches' 1/6/1958).
Something to watch out for ? It's a pity I didn't take any internal measurements, when I had the chance.

For references to the different lengths of the stripe, have a look at photo # 10in the 'Central Section' of Michael Welch's 'A Southern Electric Album', and photos on pages 70 & 71 of the same author's 'Slam Doors on the Southern' (both Capital Transport books). The units are shown in BR(S) Green livery, which shows up the stripe more clearly.
I'm pretty much sure that these positions (and lengths) were carried forward into Blue and Grey days.

All the Best, Frank.


Hi Frank,

I misread the measurement as 72" - Oops!

Internal measurements of compartments - I'm glad you alerted me to it. (Still spitting nails about that 'other' internal measurement fiasco). I have been in touch with the very reputable Mr Mike King re. plans, but he doen't do anything modern, his plans list stops with the Bulleid EMUs.

I shall have look through the book 'A Southern Electric Story' tonight.

Thanks,

Colin
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#72 Colin parks

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 18:39

Colin, I am uploading the ERM Open Day pictures now. However having had a quick look at the stock list they have on their site, they don't have a CIG, but perhaps some of the photos will be of interest anyway.

Edit: linked to wrong pictures, am half asleep clearly!


Hi Kelly,

Shame about the photos. If you have anything on inner end footsteps, that would help.


Colin

#73 meld

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 19:10

Hi Colin..

Having looked through what I have it would seem that there was/is only one footstep on the 2ndmans side on the inner end of the DTC's and none others ... nothing inner end body mounted either that I am aware of.. below are some shots of 421805 ( 7432 in old money :D ).

HTH

Mike


DTCL - TS
Posted Image


TS - MBSO
Posted Image


TS - MBSO
Posted Image


DTCL U/F Detail on the Drivers side ( R - L Water tank, Air Line Blow Down valves, EP brake control Box, Small Aux res, Shrouded AWS pick up Shoe )
Posted Image


DTCL - TS seen looking at DTCL ( Same as previous above )
Posted Image

I'll look out the other detailing shots that I might have over the next couple of days if you want ....

Edited by meld, 21 February 2012 - 13:41 .

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#74 griffgriff

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 19:29

Nice bit of corrosion on that last trailer end!
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#75 Ceptic

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 20:39

Nice bit of corrosion on that last trailer end!


Corrosion ?:..on the Southern ?....I can only put it down to sea air, and sunshine. :sungum: (And, maybe ?, the WR)

Edited by Ceptic, 14 February 2012 - 20:41 .

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