RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted February 11, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2012 There was a time - not so long ago - when many railway modellers took for granted that their primary input of new ideas would come from a magazine, such as Railway Modeller or MRJ. The market for magazines has clearly been in evidence with the addition of BRM, MR and Hornby Mag since the mid 1990s. I was wondering, however, what people feel about the sustainability of this market. With internet forums of the superlative quality of RMweb, the question arises, "who needs these publications?" Do they serve any purpose when a massive variety of advice, ideas, experience etc is available online? I'm playing Devil's advocate here, as I certainly enjoy a good read via "hardcopy". I'm also aware that MANY modellers aren't members of RMweb, or may even be unaware of its existence. So...what do you feel is the future for "the big four" (and others) in the internet age? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Yup - me too - I still enjoy reading about stuff I already know about, models reviews are useful, and seeing other people's layouts is always good and there are plenty of usefull bits in the small ads that you wouldn't necessary see on-line..... and you can't easily take the laptop into the bathroom for 20 mins of relaxation................. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Couldn't agree more, there's a years supply at least in the throne room and its the only time I get to read them! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nightstar.train Posted February 11, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2012 I read a most of the model magazines (probably too many) and can't see that changing any time soon. One thing I would like though is for them to make digital editions available. I have an iPad and now read three or four prototype magazines a month (up from only one regularly in print form), because I can download them instantly onto it and it doesn't take up space. I would like that for the model magazines, as I tend to keep them and they do take up quite a lot of space over time. Although if they have a free gift with the print edition (like the signal box with RM a couple of months back) you should be able to send away for it if you get a digital edition. I do devour RMWeb, don't get me wrong, and the topics on things like Liverpool Central are amazing. But you can't 'flick' through the internet in the same way. And, not to be rude to other posters, but on a thread like Liverpool Central it can get tiring reading a hundred posts saying "amazing, well done", when what you want is to see more of the construction and photos of the layout. So i guess what I'm saying is I read RMWeb and the magazines for different things, and they both deliver on that. I read magazines more for the features on planning and prototype, finished layouts, reviews and news, whereas I come here for the answer to obscure questions, help and advice and ongoing construction threads. Not to say you don't get all of these things in both sets of media, but that is how I see the split personally, and why I have a stack of magazines 2ft high by my bed, as well as RMWeb as my browser homepage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted February 11, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2012 and you can't easily take the laptop into the bathroom for 20 mins of relaxation................. Couldn't agree more, there's a years supply at least in the throne room and its the only time I get to read them! I do devour RMWeb, don't get me wrong, and the topics on things like Liverpool Central are amazing. But you can't 'flick' through the internet in the same way. And, not to be rude to other posters, but on a thread like Liverpool Central it can get tiring reading a hundred posts saying "amazing, well done", when what you want is to see more of the construction and photos of the layout. I buy a magazine for entertainment value & reviews. For all modelling queries/problems I turn to the internet , mainly this forum. It does 'what it says on the tin ' Good stuff lads! I agree with all the points you've made. Personally, I'd be quite upset if the printed word disappeared. Just like Books vs Kindle etc. there is a niche for BOTH. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I think some magazines grappled with this some years ago, although perhaps unconciously, when they started creating copy using contributing staff already on the payroll. It is a bit like Moderators making RMweb what it is and not the contributors. Prior to this, magazines depended a great deal on contributors. That the magazines have lost those old authors is partly down to in-house writing and partly down to websites like this. That said, I think hard copy will be around for a while if only because some folk find reading off a computer screen difficult if not downright headache forming, and printing off pages is a lot more expensive in ink than buying the magazine. But it is no use editors asking readers what they want to see in their magazine when they will not listen to the perential complaint about lack of accessibility before buying. Older modellers like meself have read about baseboard construction etc a 100 times in 60-odd years and so it takes something to catch our attention these days. That 'something' can't be used as bait if the magazine is in a sleeve and we cannot browse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porco Rosso Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Can anyone ever see MRJ going digital? It will probably be the final bastion of the printed word in the world. Otherwise, digital is definitely the way forward. Just look at RMWeb's own offering for proof of that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 . Whilst the conception of the web is 'free' is often trotted out it won't be long before the sharper cookies out there producing quality 'free' stuff and realise they can make money from it and start charging accordingly with pay to access sites, I can think of one area where this could work really well for a commercial sector of the model industry. This may in turn give a wider range of online media to read, but it won't be free. Mmm, I find this quite thought-provoking. Model railways on the Web have up to now been 'free' largely through volunteer effort, the tradeoff being there has been little in the way of quality control, hence the perception in some quarters that there is little of quality to be found (note: perception, not the reality; I'm not reopening *that* debate). But the signs are that that's changing; now that the medium is 'coming of age' and showing its potential value, how long can it resist the inevitable commercial pressures of the world we live in? I think it's only a matter of time before some form of viable, credible web presence that's run on a commercial basis raises its head in this hobby. And once money gets seriously involved, the game, the ground rules and the expectations will change. Forums work really well for quick and easy exchange of information and views, and have also been a boon for folk to show their modelling without the previous necessity of having editorial contacts or being in the right place at the right time; will we perhaps see some sort of hierarchy develop, a situation where the 'best' stuff has to be paid for, leaving the free sites to cope with a possible image of being somehow not as credible? Would contributors still post stuff for free, when they could put a premium on it elsewhere by getting paid? 'Do model railway magazines have a long term future?' asks the OP. Perhaps a more far-reaching question is 'do free model railway Internet sites have a long term future'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohmisterporter Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 ..... why not buy a paper printed magazine that is real, not transient (unless you drop it in the bath) The same can be said for electronic media of course, but the results can be much more expensive and expansive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neal Ball Posted February 11, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2012 I have been thinking along these lines quite a bit of late. I only take one magazine, (Model Rail), but have RMWeb open every time I go onto the web (every day). I think the printed media will find it has had it's day.... at some point, but probably not just yet. At one time, I would scour the magazines to find the advert for product xyz, or to know that the latest model had been released. But today, I go onto the Hattons website, or do a Google search for my favoured Great Western model wagon kit. Not sure it is worth some of the advertisers buying advertising space any more..... BUT My father has two magazines, plus reads my MR and whilst he will order through Hattons, that wont be his first port of call. It's a generational thing! In 10 years that MIGHT be the time when mags have had their day.... who knows, I still love ripping the wrapper off this months Model Rail and devouring the contents - shame though, I can't make it last the month! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Theres what? 700 pages of members here and 20 members per page. Thats 15,000 ish members. Most mags quote something in the region of 30,000 copies per issue its easy to summise there must be at least 100,000 modellers not here. People will tend to read all of a mag so if you do write something its fair to say 25,000 people+ will see it. Post something on here and a couple of hundred might if you are really lucky. But scrawling something on a layout thread as most of us do, in no way makes us able to write articles for magazines. Theres a big, big difference between the two and I for one think both are here to stay. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 and then what would those tightwads who stand in front of the racks in WH Smiths and just read the mags there, do then ??............ . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 As has already been said, electronic media and the printed page often serve different purposes. What forums like this can provide cannot be achieved with a printed magazine. The opportunity to ask questions and get rapid answers, to enjoy fifteen minutes of fame through providing examples of your own work, etc. doesn't work with printed media. The downside with such open access of course is the amount of noise and dross that accompanies the worthwhile content, so a lot of self editing is required.. On the other hand I believe that printed media works better for articles, reviews, etc. Although magazines can be delivered electronically to a computer or other electronic device I don't find that it is the easiest way to read large pages of copy. I still find it better to print out articles, etc. where I want to add them to my reference library. Perhaps it's an age/ generation thing, but a well edited magazine with a variety of contributors and topics, atmospheric photographs, etc. still has it's place. For me MRJ provides that better than the "mainsteam" magazines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 11, 2012 I think there's still room for both printed and electronic - and I don't think print will ever die completely because it offers a sort of 'in your hand permanance' which isn't exactly matched by the electronic media (yet??). And there is something nice about sitting back in armchair or on the settee which the electronic media can't really match, and it definitely can't match the feel of paper in your hand and the easiness of flicking through pages. Maybe this could change as those who've grown up with the world in a computer screen begin to out-number those who didn't, but maybe it won't. For myself I'll still be reading the mags as long as they are there and gather my interest but asking if all 4 of the 'mainstream' examples will survive might be a different question. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted February 11, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2012 I have been thinking along these lines quite a bit of late. I only take one magazine, (Model Rail), but have RMWeb open every time I go onto the web (every day). I think the printed media will find it has had it's day.... at some point, but probably not just yet. At one time, I would scour the magazines to find the advert for product xyz, or to know that the latest model had been released. But today, I go onto the Hattons website, or do a Google search for my favoured Great Western model wagon kit. Not sure it is worth some of the advertisers buying advertising space any more..... BUT My father has two magazines, plus reads my MR and whilst he will order through Hattons, that wont be his first port of call. It's a generational thing! In 10 years that MIGHT be the time when mags have had their day.... who knows, I still love ripping the wrapper off this months Model Rail and devouring the contents - shame though, I can't make it last the month! I think you were reading my mind when I started this thread, Neal, as what you said in your post was, in general, what I was thinking. The discussion so far has convinced me - because of the "generational thing", the convenience in certain situations (eg. the loo!!) and the (current) expectation that info will be found in a magazine - that the printed format is here to stay for the forseeable future. The point that Pennine and others allude to re. the future cost of web-based resources is a good one, one which I hadn't considered. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Theres what? 700 pages of members here and 20 members per page. Thats 15,000 ish members. Most mags quote something in the region of 30,000 copies per issue its easy to summise there must be at least 100,000 modellers not here. People will tend to read all of a mag so if you do write something its fair to say 25,000 people+ will see it. Post something on here and a couple of hundred might if you are really lucky. But scrawling something on a layout thread as most of us do, in no way makes us able to write articles for magazines. Theres a big, big difference between the two and I for one think both are here to stay. Cheers Jim Jim, I think that your estimate of the number of modellers may be too optimistic. Quite a lot of modellers take several titles, so there is some "duplication". I know several people that buy two or three magazines each month but don't actually do any modelling. Likewise I know a few that consider forums a waste of time as they would rather be model making. and then what would those tightwads who stand in front of the racks in WH Smiths and just read the mags there, do then ??............ . I don't usually do that because I can't see what's inside the plastic wrapper. From my position of ignorance there also seems to be a degree of repeat material, such as pages of the same RTR manufacturer's PR, etc. And why is it that only RM appears in local libraries (along with Model Engineering)? Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Thats true Jol, but also consider a lot of magazines sold are (ultimately) read by more than one person. in our area group and among my close modelling friends I am the only one who posts here. If thats accurate (and I am not sating it is) thats a ratio of 18-1. Of those people only a few (perhaps a half dozen) buy any mags at all Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catkins Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Can anyone ever see MRJ going digital? It will probably be the final bastion of the printed word in the world. Otherwise, digital is definitely the way forward. Just look at RMWeb's own offering for proof of that! I have one problem with anything that could be termed 'e-media', and that is the fact that I own a laptop, that weighs more than a magazine, takes a couple of minutes to start-up, and it can't be used in a powercut I'll stick with a magazine for my 45 minutes "Tacho" Breaks! and then what would those tightwads who stand in front of the racks in WH Smiths and just read the mags there, do then ??............ . They would go and stand in front of radio rentals and watch the adverts!! . . . . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I think print will be with us for the foreseeable future and new media rarely displace older media. Despite all the predictions television still hasn't killed cinema, radio or the theatre (though it did perhaps finally finish off the music hall) There does seem to be a rather fundamental difference between the apparent permanence of print and the seemingly more provisional nature of electronic media. In the past I was aware of a difference between writing scripts for television that would be spoken and heard and my writing for publication that would be read. I now think this is just as true between writing for online and for magazines. In our arena I wrote a few extended pieces for the late Carl Arendt's site and took care over them to check both my own writing and the facts but somehow when I've writen for print, whether for a mainstream magazine or a society journal, there seem to be far more drafts and versions on my PC and just that much more checking of every single fact even though the actual writing is done using the same keyboard in front of the same screen (and a sentence that long would never have survived !!). I think this is partly because an electronic piece can be updated and corrected whereas once something has gone to print it is very permanent and may be read, along with any mistakes, by someone a hundred years from now. The other big difference is the editorial process. RMWeb is the sum of everything that we all have to say whether that is trivial or profound and that gives something that a monthly magazine cannot. Conversely, a well produced magazine is the distillation of a process between the writers, the editor and the designers that includes a degree of selection and possibly commissioning. I've never written a book and I wonder whether that would be different again. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 The first song played on MTV. Were they wrong though? You cant be a pop star these days unless you look good in the video! Some would argue that looking good is more important than musical ability. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn-on-the-platform Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I still buy monthly magazines. Currently Steam Railway and Hornby Magazine. I'm growing a bit tired of Hornby Magazine but if I were to stop buying it I would buy another modelling title instead. Whilst I dislike most kinds of advertising, railway magazine advertising is extremely useful! Whilst RMWeb is usually first for news, you do pick up the odd extra nugget of information on paper. I think there is a future for a good while yet. Hornby Magazine has proved this by becoming a popular magazine in just a few years. I would only stop buying modelling magazines if all the layouts were available in more detail online. This is clearly some way away from happening. Having said this, I do enjoy seeing the odd RMWeb member's layout on paper! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 tell that toShane McGowen tell it to Amy Lee too....but I know you would be telling fibs I would if I had th foggiest idea who they are! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I'm guessing you mean Amy Lee, Jim? Talented muso who fronts EVANESCENCE. edit: Shane McGowan, POGUES frontman/ writer (ropey set of teeth) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I think they do but I do think however that there are too many of them covering the basically the same areas in the railway modelling area. How many times have we seen the same layout appear in a number of magazines over say a 2 -3 period? Similar reviews of the same new models and the same adverts in many, why? Here is some food for thought - if there were less model railway magazines then they big suppliers (box shifters) could reduce their advertising budgets and pass the savings onto their customers! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D605Eagle Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Mmm, I find this quite thought-provoking. Model railways on the Web have up to now been 'free' largely through volunteer effort, the tradeoff being there has been little in the way of quality control, hence the perception in some quarters that there is little of quality to be found (note: perception, not the reality; I'm not reopening *that* debate). But the signs are that that's changing; now that the medium is 'coming of age' and showing its potential value, how long can it resist the inevitable commercial pressures of the world we live in? I think it's only a matter of time before some form of viable, credible web presence that's run on a commercial basis raises its head in this hobby. And once money gets seriously involved, the game, the ground rules and the expectations will change. Forums work really well for quick and easy exchange of information and views, and have also been a boon for folk to show their modelling without the previous necessity of having editorial contacts or being in the right place at the right time; will we perhaps see some sort of hierarchy develop, a situation where the 'best' stuff has to be paid for, leaving the free sites to cope with a possible image of being somehow not as credible? Would contributors still post stuff for free, when they could put a premium on it elsewhere by getting paid? 'Do model railway magazines have a long term future?' asks the OP. Perhaps a more far-reaching question is 'do free model railway Internet sites have a long term future'. If for example RMweb was to become a paid for, or even a partially paid for medium, I believe that it would wither, and some other existing or new large scale forum would eventually take its place. It will be interesting to see how Railway Herald fairs over the next year or two. I see that a freebie alternative is already out there. That might indicate what could happen in the future despite the fact its real railway based. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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