Why is this so rarely modelled?

[Guest jim s-w]

Hi All

 

While I think of the 80's as the forgotten era of railway modelling its not half as bad as this

 

 

Steam. blue and grey coaches (b4 bogies too) colour lights, FB rail and yet hardly ever (if ever) modelled.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

Edited February 24, 2012 by jim s-w

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Jim,

It certainly is a neglected era that IMHO deserves to be modelled! Wonderful album by the way.

I can only guess that most people who knew that era, prefer to think of steam in happier times rather than right at the end. Not something folk are shy of in Europe, though.

Cheers,

John E.

[great central]

I think there's a perception that it didn't happen.

We were discussing this very era at the club on Tuesday.

One of our younger members thought that steam had gone before blue and grey coaching stock became common.

Rooting around in the library produced plenty of evidence to the contrary including a Britannia hauled train of 12 or so coaches, only three of which were maroon!

Admittedly you're looking at the North West for most examples but it could have happened in most areas that still had steam post 1966.

There is a picture in 'Great Northern in the East Midlands' by Alf Henshaw which shows what I'm fairly sure is a mk2 coach in Blue/Grey, being hauled by an 8F on a railtour past wekday Cross in Nottingham, heading towards Nottingham Victoria. Personally i would have doubted any blue/greys made it into 'the Vic' let alone a mk2!

[Steven B]

I don't think I've ever seen the mid-late 1960s modelled. As you say, very interesting period. Plenty of variety in stock and trains. Working methods were very much steam era based. Doing a decent job of weathering the steam locos would prove very challenging though.

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

['CHARD]

Wow! Possibly the best single collection of era-based photographs I have seen. It is far and away my favourite period, '67-68. I may not be doing it modelling justice yet, but rest assured I shall be doing my little bit to put it on the map.

 

Note - camping coaches at Hest Bank Station, the size of Morecambe station, with mix of Corporate Era and steam, and as Jim says, the B4 bogied MkI behind 43033 at Preston. I really thought that was a no-no. Amazing.

[Glorious NSE]

Admittedly you're looking at the North West for most examples

 

The other one that would work fairly well would be the LSWR main line down to Southampton which was in the process of electrification, like bits of the North West you'd get a mix of steam, diesel and electric traction, a range of liveries etc etc...

[Guest Max Stafford]

Truly one of the most fascinating of modelling periods and one I will certainly be nodding to if I ever get round to building a layout.

 

Dave.

['CHARD]

Seems to me that any main lines radiating from Carlisle in 1967 would hold opportunities

[petethemole]

Interestingly, in some of the 1968 shots the blue/grey Mk1s are already heavily weathered with the blue faded; model that and see what reaction you get.

Pete

[Brit70053]

I think, at the time, there was a general dislike and resentment of what was happening on the real railway. Steam being rapidly phased out and replaced by diesels, some of which were very unreliable, and the introduction of the 'Corporate Image' were 2 factors which were unpopular amongst enthusiasts of the day and hence made the era less likely to be modelled. The blue/ Grey passenger stock livery wasn't well received in my (admittedly small) circle of railway enthusiast friends and the 'Arrow of Indecision' was derided as such rather than being accepted as a possibly clever 'logo' in the context of the industry. That together with an unending series of bad news stories about British Rail (ways), (financial lossess, Line closures, etc) combined to dissuade many folk from modelling the latest trends, most preferring to stick to earlier and more popular themes.

 

Regards,

 

John

['CHARD]

Interestingly, in some of the 1968 shots the blue/grey Mk1s are already heavily weathered with the blue faded; model that and see what reaction you get.

Pete

 

I intend to, Pete. I intend to!

[Adam]

Odd, it's precisely the period I do model, albeit on the South Western. No layout, or plans for one though so it's very much below the radar. I agree about that collection, very impressive. Also interesting is that the quality of the pictures clearly shows the purchase of a better camera (or at least lens) some time in early '68!

 

Adam

[Ravenser]

I think I can suggest a reason.

 

At the end of steam there was a very strong revulsion against BR, the new order, and "the powers-that-be" , driven by the twin traumas of the Beeching Axe and the end of steam. I can just remember from the 1970s that railway enthusiasts would put you very firmly in your place if you said anything positive or even neutral about the contemporary rail scene . It was generally held that railway managers were corporate creatures intent on advancing their careers by destroying as much of the system as fast as possible, that the new ways were at best misguided and counterproductive, and didn't work, and at worst deliberate sabotage etc etc etc

 

The general attitude was "the glories of steam - and the least said about what came after, the better" . Photographers in the 60s apparently frequently made a point of putting down the camera and turning away when non-steam traction appeared . Essentially most enthusiasts were determinedly "editing out" the new era and Corporate image - and it's not surprising that these kind of scenes and contrasts were only recorded by accident and deliberately forgotten afterwards.

 

I suspect that the photographer - at the time - only wanted the steam engine in that shot: the blue/grey coach and colourlights were an unwelcome and undesirable intrusion into the phot, unescapable in recording the "real" (ie steam) subject

[jonny777]

I think, at the time, there was a general dislike and resentment of what was happening on the real railway. Steam being rapidly phased out and replaced by diesels, some of which were very unreliable, and the introduction of the 'Corporate Image' were 2 factors which were unpopular amongst enthusiasts of the day and hence made the era less likely to be modelled. The blue/ Grey passenger stock livery wasn't well received in my (admittedly small) circle of railway enthusiast friends and the 'Arrow of Indecision' was derided as such rather than being accepted as a possibly clever 'logo' in the context of the industry. That together with an unending series of bad news stories about British Rail (ways), (financial lossess, Line closures, etc) combined to dissuade many folk from modelling the latest trends, most preferring to stick to earlier and more popular themes.

 

Regards,

 

John

 

I agree with this, and on certain platform ends there was outright hostility to anyone who noted down diesel numbers, let alone photographed them. It was a very depressing time for steam enthusiasts, thousands of whom gave up trainspotting in August 1968 and concentrated on the eras when steam was thriving.

 

It was a sentiment brought on not just because of the neglect of steam engines by the authorities, but by the sheer speed that relatively new classes had been consigned to the scrapheap, and the consequent waste of money.

 

By the way, if anyone suggests that MGR wagons and steam locos were never seen together, direct them to the B&R Lancashire & Yorkshire videos. One of which shows a view of Low Moor (I think from memory) sidings, and a WD arrives with a whole train of merry go round hoppers.

[Adam]

There's certainly something in the phenomena Jonny and Ravenser report. It was considered deeply strange by his contemporaries in Plymouth that my dad actually wanted to model the railway as it was post-'65, weathered D63's (class 22 for TOPS speakers) and all. A bit of a contrast to the pre-war GWR everyone else was building...

 

I never experienced that period of course, but since my modelling is not driven by nostalgia but as something different to do [from the day job], I make things that fit with my dad's interests that can be run together.

 

Adam

[DavidLong]

I remember this transition era with great affection. Up to the closure of Birkenhed Woodside in 1966 a favourite jaunt for a friend and I was:

Southport to Liverpool Exchange - 3rd rail LMS electric

Ferry to Woodside

Birkenhead Woodside to Chester - usually a LMS 2-6-4T on Paddington train

Chester to Crewe - BR DMU, a 108 probably.

Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street - BR AL1-AL6 on train ex-London

Liverpool Exchange to Southport - 3rd rail LMS electric

The contrast beween these four forms of traction was quite remarkable especially, for the period, the quite astonishing turn of speed of the LMW electrics. The liveries of the period were also in transition as discussions elsewhere on RM Web have demonstrated. All in all, an excellent period to model.

Growing up with all forms of motive power I have never been particularly interested in the sterile arguements about steam v diesel v electric and these raged in magazine letters columns of the period. However, I think it would be true to say that many who had only really known steam in their lives were deeply resentful of the changes that were taking place on the railway. Many put their cameras away and stopped photographing what they regarded as a railway that had lost its soul when steam departed. Some, such as John Spencer Gilks, just went on recording as before and have left us with an unbroken record of the railway from the late 1950s to the years of privatisation. We should be very grateful.

 

David

[great central]

I agree with this, and on certain platform ends there was outright hostility to anyone who noted down diesel numbers, let alone photographed them. It was a very depressing time for steam enthusiasts, thousands of whom gave up trainspotting in August 1968 and concentrated on the eras when steam was thriving.

 

 

 

 

To put a more positive spin on this without wishing to hijack the thread. I'm sure a good number of those who gave up with BR went off and got involved in the, then, relatively small preservation movement. It's them we have to thank for there being so much preserved today.

[Bernard Lamb]

I have memories of redundant mineral wagons with holes cut in their sides.

No wonder that era is unpopular.

The North West was certainly the place to see the best of it. Preston to Carlisle with trips to Keswick and Windermere would probably through up a greater variety of stock than a trip over the whole network today..

Bernard

[Poggy1165]

I think I can suggest a reason.

 

At the end of steam there was a very strong revulsion against BR, the new order, and "the powers-that-be" , driven by the twin traumas of the Beeching Axe and the end of steam. I can just remember from the 1970s that railway enthusiasts would put you very firmly in your place if you said anything positive or even neutral about the contemporary rail scene . It was generally held that railway managers were corporate creatures intent on advancing their careers by destroying as much of the system as fast as possible, that the new ways were at best misguided and counterproductive, and didn't work, and at worst deliberate sabotage etc etc etc

 

There was an element of truth in perceived attitude of the railway officials. I remember a journey in the front compartment of a DMU down the Central Wales Line not that long after steam finished, when I was joined by a railway officer not much older than myself. He made a point of asking me whether I had been told to travel that way to Swansea (I had a Railrover ticket and could go where I pleased) and spent much of the journey telling me how uneconomic the CWL was, how it would be cheaper to buy every passenger their own car, and so on and so forth. His negative and damn-near anti-railway attitude made me glad I had not joined BR as a career, as I had at one time thought of doing.

[coachmann]

"Interesting period....Fascinating era.....deserves to be modelled" ...I think not!

 

Sure, looking back might make the end of the steam era look attractive today, but it was a different kettle of fish to those who were there looking forward. The decline of our railways, not just steam, was swift and 'orrible after 1963. The layouts depicting 1966-8 aren't around likely because the era still isn't cause for celebration. It wasnt just that thousands of nearly new steam engines and diesels were being ruthlessly cut up for scrap, or that rolling stock, railway lines, stations, goods yards and marshalling yards were being ripped up, it was lack of a coordinated system that left Britain looking like bomb site. Blue & grey coaches represented the new order and yet they looked utility especially in trains of maroon or green stock. They definitely never looked right behind mainline steam; not in the 1960s and not today!

Edited February 24, 2012 by coachmann

[Oldddudders]

Jim's point is interesting - the degree of heavy weathering I seem to see on many model late-era BR steam locos led me to believe that this was exactly the period being modelled!

 

As far as the BR culture of the era was concerned, there was a huge drive to cut costs. Dr Beeching had been employed by HM Government to reduce the burden on the taxpayer, and he was doing that very effectively, as we all know. Productivity or Work Study teams - aka The Razor Gangs - had been looking up and down the system at bits that didn't pay their way. The "Social Railway" was still some years in the future, while the burgeoning of the road-haulage industry in the motorway era meant that wagonload trafic was dropping like a stone. Could the facilities really be expected to be left in place - just in case?

 

I joined BR in 1966, but by being in a busy commuter Region, was never touched by the worst effects of all this.

[jonny777]

I am sure that it has been repeated many times, but the horrors of that period were crystalised with the decision to bulldoze St Pancras because it was out of date. Thank goodness for John Betjeman.

 

Having said that though, it certainly would be a fascinating era to model, although accuracy would be a nightmare as steam locos were being condemned on a daily basis, diesels were beginning to be repainted into blue, some with syp. Green diesels were getting fyp and some from Doncaster works were getting double arrows. A few locos and units had the double arrows initially added the wrong way round, and certain diesel and electric units had yellow ends taken right around over the drivers' doors on the cab side.

[Adam]

Ian, Larry

Can I gently suggest that you may be slightly missing the point. By modelling this period, I am not celebrating the railway as it was then, nor attempting to glorify it. It was, after all, well over a decade before I was born. 'Attractive' is not the same as 'interesting'. Am I interested? Yes. Would I want to travel on it given an alternative? No. I've simply never bought the 'romance' of the railway, steam or otherwise, but the juxtaposition of 'old' and 'new', coupled with the change in culture that accompanied it is interesting. It wasn't tidy, it certainly wasn't clean, but what change is? An awful lot of people find any kind of change threatening (not saying you did or do chaps) and perhaps this - in general terms - answers Jim's question?

For dad in the south west (and involved at the Dart Valley in its early days), I suspect, it's just what he saw, and what was there. For me, it's the challenge: I might easily have chosen the Brecon and Merthyr in the 1910s.

Adam

Edited December 21, 2016 by Adam

[Ravenser]

There was an element of truth in perceived attitude of the railway officials. I remember a journey in the front compartment of a DMU down the Central Wales Line not that long after steam finished, when I was joined by a railway officer not much older than myself. He made a point of asking me whether I had been told to travel that way to Swansea (I had a Railrover ticket and could go where I pleased) and spent much of the journey telling me how uneconomic the CWL was, how it would be cheaper to buy every passenger their own car, and so on and so forth. His negative and damn-near anti-railway attitude made me glad I had not joined BR as a career, as I had at one time thought of doing.

 

I get the impression , from one or two things I've read , that this may have been a particularly WR phenomenon . In particular an Oakwood Press memoir by an ex ER railwayman , who being newly appointed to Area Manager Westbury was considerably dismayed to find that the WR hierarcy seemed to think the purpose of his position was to eliminate the Berks & Hants - the adjacent Area Manager having essentially liquidated the S&DJR after which his post was abolished... This was also the Region which downgraded the LSW mainline to Exeter and it's own route from Paddington to Birkenhead to single track with the elimiation of most of the ex SR lines in Devon /Cornwall , and the GW lines in the W Midlands/NW

 

I emphasise I wasn't around at the time and this is a suspicion formed by putting some straws in the wind together : I may be putting 2 + 2 together and making 22

 

It is worth remembering that this wasn't a terribly positive era - BR took delivery of no new locos between 1967 and 1974 (in terms of diesels not til 1976) , no new DMUs from about 1963 to the early 80s, ands very few new EMUs either. There were no electrifications between 1967 and 1974. Just line closures and withdrawals. BR's public stock was very low - until the introduction of the HSTs it was very much seen by the public as an obsolete decaying system waiting for it's coup de grace

 

That may have been a gross misjudgement, in the light of the last 40 years , but it does seem to have been the common view in the late 60s early 70s

[Tequila Sunrise]

Dereliction + neglect = atmosphere

 

Einstein's theory of model railways