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Why is this so rarely modelled?





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#101 coachmann

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 16:57

It's an interesting period of railway history if you can get over the trauma of loosing well loved locomotives. The two need separating.

The thing that needs separating is the very real viewpoint of those that were there and witnessed the very hurried decline, and the folk who are merely sampling the era from the much less informative world of photos and films.

The two trains of thought will never come together. It reminds of the movie 'Time Machine' where the hero goes forward in time and discovers the Eloy's have misinterpreted the past from available information. We are all the same species and so I firmly believe that if the folk were actually there they would feel exactly the same as us...... Why wouldnt they? B)

Edited by coachmann, 27 February 2012 - 18:54 .

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#102 jonny777

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 17:05

It's an interesting period of railway history if you can get over the trauma of loosing well loved locomotives. The two need separating. Just because something might be thought of as being bad doesn't make it any less interesting - just look at history where death and destruction are studied much more than the nicer time.


Happy modelling.

Steven B.


Sorry, but you have exposed my dreaded secret. I just cannot get over the trauma of those years, try as I might in the following years. I think the loss was compounded by my living in a rural area with little money, and certainly none to spend on subscriptions to railway magazines.

Therefore the full scale of the slaughter did not hit me until it was well under way, and the big green engines that I had seen a couple of years earlier at the head of express services, were either non-existent or a filthy black with streaks of rust and wheezing along on a all stations stopping parcels train.

And as for laughing stock, well it was in certain quarters. Comedians made endless BR jokes. When I was about to leave school the headmaster took a careers lesson in which we all had to describe our future plans. He had long conversations with everyone about university, or banking jobs, those who were going to work in the family business, etc. When I said I was intending to join BR, he emitted a loud guffaw (in the style of Brian Blessed) and boomed "how will they pay you, they are losing millions already?" and moved on.
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#103 Brit70053

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 19:59

Most went along with it because we were told that the space age was almost upon us, when colonies would be set up on the moon, everyone would fly around in jet cars and robots would do all the boring stuff like cooking and cleaning.


Oh Yeah!, and COMPUTERS would enable working people to have 'So Much More Liesure Time' ! :O

John
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#104 lapford34102

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 20:16

I've come rather late to this so apologies if I repeat anything already said. It's already covered a lot of interesting ground but I'd like to get back to JSW original thought provoking post.
There's a lot of steam to diesel transition layouts around, equally there's a lot of green to blue transition D+E layouts about. What seems to be virtually non existent are steam to Corporate Image layouts. Not unsuprising if you think about it as this period lasted barely 2 years and was limited to two distinct geographic locations.
My particular interest is the Waterloo-Weymouth line in 67 as anyone who has seen my collection will atest. With all due respect to others I can only remember seeing one layout attempting to recreate this and this was back in the mid 70's and was a very commendable attempt considering what the builder has to work with. The TC stock was converted from Dublo Tinplate coaching and few here might remember the original article in MRC back in the 60's. Anyone who is attempting either SR or NW during this time is now far better served in RTR or kit stock so is it a case of little interest or something else. Books about the end of steam appear pretty popular so maybe it's that steam fans of the era have a problem with the corporate colour scheme. Or it could be simply that the layout options are pretty limited. All you need is a main line and room to run fairly serious length trains.
Were there any branch or freight only lines that could be modelled. No idea about the NW but there were precious few options on the Southern. A bit of artistic license could be used for something based on Lymington or Swanage though you'd have to fudge the timeline a bit and Wareham would be a reasonable starting point for something a bit bigger that could include freight.
Interesting stuff all round.
Stu
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#105 papagolfjuliet

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 07:50

Some very good - and thoroughly depressing - footage of the period on this not entirely appropriately entitled DVD set: http://www.amazon.co...s00_i01_details

The Lancashire & Yorkshire disc is especially interesting, with lots of unnamed and unlined Britannias, and a filthy Black 5 on a rake of ex-works blue and grey Mk. 2s.

Edited by papagolfjuliet, 28 February 2012 - 08:28 .


#106 Mucky Duck

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:58

There are two reasons why I would model this transition period. One is that I simply model what had the most profound effect on me as a boy and second, I'm another fascinated by the run-down, by decay and desolation.

Whilst living close to ugly wastelands in Manchester or surrounding mill towns, the decline of steam was already well under way but decrepit, leaking steam clanking its way through a grim location was better than no steam at all – and witnessing that was better than only being able to imagine the 'glory days' of those fortunate enough to have been there.

The day that steam was suddenly banned, a week before my 10th birthday, the railway for me went from hero to zero, despite Alan Pegler's ever-present and gleaming A3 4472 that I'd always yearned to see. As if removing steam wasn't enough of a blow, I also detested BR's new corporate scheme; not so much the blue - but definitely the yellow ends.

A timely move away from our rail-side house helped to soften the blow of steam's sudden death and yes, after a few years the distraction of adolescent discoveries; girls, music, alcohol etc. all but erased steam from my memory but obviously the
profound effectof its final years on me has remained.

If I may, I think what makes it particularly fascinating is precisely this. It's sad, but inevitable, when things are withdrawn at their expected lifespan. It's fascinating when something interrupts this to cause a huge, jarring change. Dare I say, an Ending.

James Dean, Richey Edwards, Marilyn Monroe, Dylan Thomas, Kurt Cobain, Diana Spencer, John Lennon, Sid Vicious, Amy Winehouse - fascinating? Probably.

Status Quo, Rolling Stones, Gerry and The Pacemakers, Elton John, Manic Street Preachers, Frank Carson, HM Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother...? Hmmm...


I agree with this in principle but I see it more like steam as a whole being on the point of death, having had a glorious and successful life, like a glamorous film star from years before I was born. What would fascinate me more is not watching the countless re-runs of all her classics but the last (and bravest) film she ever made or a candid and insightful (some may say cruel or moving) documentary about the twilight of her life.

Edited by Mucky Duck, 28 February 2012 - 13:00 .

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#107 Glorious NSE

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 13:11

We are all the same species and so I firmly believe that if the folk were actually there they would feel exactly the same as us...... Why wouldnt they?


Is it that simple?

All those (I presume) contributing to this thread are alive now, but we have a number of vastly differing views on the railways of today...?

#108 coachmann

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 13:27


  • All those (I presume) contributing to this thread are alive now, but we have a number of vastly differing views on the railways of today...?

    True. Maybe I didn't mix in the right circles as I tended to mix with older enthusiasts for whome the steam railway was everything. If someone was overheard saying they liked the blue electrics in Manchester and the run down condition of everything in 1967-8, it would be todays equivalent of saying they found Sprinterisation exciting as it got rid of the old outmoded Peaks and loco-hauled trains...

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#109 Glorious NSE

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 15:00

Maybe I didn't mix in the right circles as I tended to mix with older enthusiasts for whome the steam railway was everything.


Possibly that's an element - we all gravitate towards like-minded folk, that's natural.

If someone was overheard saying they liked the blue electrics in Manchester and the run down condition of everything in 1967-8<snip>


See, I see those two things as two opposites, not two instances of the same thing. I see the first as a hugely positive and exciting step forwards, whilst I see the second as something rather sad...

And whilst I agree that many (probably most) in the enthusiast community hated the change there must have been at least some element of the enthusiast community who felt the same way - that it was not the end of the railways but a time of change - witness Trains Illustrated redefining itself as Modern Railways in the lead up to this era.

it would be todays equivalent of saying they found Sprinterisation exciting as it got rid of the old outmoded Peaks and loco-hauled trains...


There's plenty of folk (me included) who I know lived through Sprinterisation, Sectorisation, Privatisation, Voyagerisation, Pendolinoisation, Mk1 replacement on the Southern, EWS's 'Red Death' and assorted other changes that still love the modern scene and go and actively watch and record it though. Life's rich tapestry and all that...

Either way, I see that as a different question to why folk would model it or not.
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#110 coachmann

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 15:14

Life's rich tapestry.......? :rofl_mini:

One of the only thing good in life today is the track and railway models allowing old 'uns like me to recreate better times in model form. ^_^

Edited by coachmann, 28 February 2012 - 15:17 .


#111 10800

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 15:16

Is it just sooty rag-rugs up there then, Larry? :P

#112 Steven B

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 13:12

If someone was overheard saying they liked the blue electrics in Manchester and the run down condition of everything in 1967-8, it would be todays equivalent of saying they found Sprinterisation exciting as it got rid of the old outmoded Peaks and loco-hauled trains...


I really liked Sprinters when they first arrived. They were clean and modern, not like the old locos & coaches that were old and tatty round the edges. I was only 8 or 9 at the time though!

People model an era because it's what they find fasinating. It might bring back certain memories or they have an interest in a particular time and place. I model mid-late 1980s - I get the tired old Peaks which I've come to appreciate and the shinny new Sprinters which helped get me interested in railways.

Some are obsessed by picturesque GWR branchlines. As a lover of urban grot I can't think of anything more dull - a tatty looking loco struggling to haul a train up an industrial South Wales valley is much more appealing. Fortunatly we all like different things otherwise life (and railway modelling) would be rather dull.

Happy modelling.

Steven B.
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#113 The Stationmaster

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 13:29

And whilst I agree that many (probably most) in the enthusiast community hated the change there must have been at least some element of the enthusiast community who felt the same way - that it was not the end of the railways but a time of change - witness Trains Illustrated redefining itself as Modern Railways in the lead up to this era.

Of course it was exciting - a great shame to see steam displaced and scrapped, terrible (for me at any rate) to see semaphore signals felled but there were some shiny new diesels, dmus that let you see where you were going, fascinating new colourlight signals going in that you watched work and then went home to try to do the same on your layout (well I did) and so on. Any period of change is a mixture and perhaps your view of it depends on memories of past glories of things that were going, openness to change, your age and so on. All the human factors have an influence on the way you feel about what is changing around you.

What made a difference for some folk was being 'inside the fence' where change could mean anything from new opportunity right down to redundancy but certainly - for many - a new way of working. Again a matter of how people accepted or adapted to change and its personal impact. And in that situation being 'inside' could be very, very, different from the viewpoint of a mere interested onlooker.
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#114 DavidB

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 17:30

My particular interest is the Waterloo-Weymouth line in 67 as anyone who has seen my collection will atest. With all due respect to others I can only remember seeing one layout attempting to recreate this and this was back in the mid 70's and was a very commendable attempt considering what the builder has to work with. The TC stock was converted from Dublo Tinplate coaching and few here might remember the original article in MRC back in the 60's.


Ah yes - this must have been Colin Boocock's lovely Weybourne as featured in RM and also mentioned here: http://www.rmweb.co....isused-layouts/
This was a stand-out layout for me in the late 70s, despite being squeezed into a box room and hence having tight radii, short trains and steep gradients. I thought it was a very atmospheric recreation of the western extremities of the SW Division in 1966/67, with blue hydraulics and 33s, blue/grey, maroon and green stock, colour lights and semaphores, and a wonderfully scruffy selection of BR standard and SR steam locos.

I've always assumed that the builder's dual status as both a professional railwayman and an enthusiast was a major factor in the well-observed recreation of this fascinating period, and per Mike's comments, for me this layout captured some of the excitement of the time. As a teenager, it inspired me to attempt an overly ambitious N gauge layout based loosely on Basingstoke in 1967, with concrete sleepered third rail track, a maroon Warship, an early blue ED, a BRIF Standard 5 converted from a Peco Jubilee and a Farish WC rebuilt with 9 foot cab, cut down tender and brass smoke deflectors - the lure of O Gauge put an end to that project, but I still have the stock in boxes in the loft.....

David
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#115 lapford34102

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 20:21

Ah yes - this must have been Colin Boocock's lovely Weybourne as featured in RM


That's the one ! Many thanks :-)

I'd give a lot to have the space to have a shot at something similar given how much easier it would be, the furthest I ever got was an 8' x 6' skit on Wareham done in the 80's but by then we had Lima 33's and MTK TC's.
As mentioned in the other thread for it's time it was real edge of the envelope stuff and it would be fun to see what today's modellers would make of it.

Cheers

Stu
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#116 37255

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 20:47

Well, I'm actually quite tempted to model the period now! Whether to go for a station or a depot is another matter, and how I'm going to afford a fleet of black 5s another still!

#117 Michael Delamar

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 03:51

the video i posted in post 51 on page 3.

look at 40 mins 45 seconds and note how tatty the blue and grey coaches look in that train

#118 Pennine MC

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 09:03

the video i posted in post 51 on page 3.

look at 40 mins 45 seconds and note how tatty the blue and grey coaches look in that train


Looks like some sort of deposit from a washing plant, though it's only on those two. The rake of four Staniers just before it is nice also :sungum:

#119 The Stationmaster

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 18:47

Looks like some sort of deposit from a washing plant, though it's only on those two. The rake of four Staniers just before it is nice also :sungum:

Certainly looks like Exmover staining but the pattern suggests it's most likely from incomplete or incorrect handwashing and not from a machine.
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#120 TheSignalEngineer

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 18:57

the video i posted in post 51 on page 3.

look at 40 mins 45 seconds and note how tatty the blue and grey coaches look in that train


The quality of painting when they first introduced 'airless spraying' was also pretty c*&%. I remember Peaks in blue, Warships and Westerns in Maroon or Blue, where most of the colour had come out in the wash.

#121 pondy

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 21:56

I was only 18 months old when steam disappeared from the Southern region so I don't remember any steam on the main line at all untill it was preserved.
Whilst I can see that the railway scene was not good in the late 60s I don't see that as a reason not to model it. There seems to be a fashion to weather locos at the moment and they make fantastic models when done well, but they are hardly portraying the best times of the railway.
One of the best ever layouts I have ever seen was Dresden just after we British had done our best to destroy it in WW2. There were bomb craters everywhere, even in the track, with houses and other buildings half demolished. The layout depicted a scene of real carnage in a very depressing time for anyone living through the time. Having never been to Germany, I can't say weather it was an accurate model or not (although I'm sure it was) but overall it looked right in my eyes.
When I first saw this topic I tried mixing a bit of Blue/Grey with Maroon stock with a variety of both Steam and Diesel locos as seen in the late 60s. My very first impression was that it just didn't look right.
I think that's why mixed rakes aren't seen very much in just the same way that, for instance, model GNER HSTs are not seen with the odd Inter-city coach mixed in to the rake. It just doesn't look right not even in real life.

#122 'CHARD

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 22:37

I tried mixing a bit of Blue/Grey with Maroon stock with a variety of both Steam and Diesel locos as seen in the late 60s. My very first impression was that it just didn't look right.
I think that's why mixed rakes aren't seen very much in just the same way that, for instance, model GNER HSTs are not seen with the odd Inter-city coach mixed in to the rake. It just doesn't look right not even in real life.


Welcome to our world, where this hybrid becomes as second nature as a well thumbed pair of gloves...

And having just been party to an earlybird shot of a pair of weathered locos that simply shout Autumn '67 in a way nothing else has - quite - before, I'd say that the stakes are being upped in transition era modelling, and it's a period we're going to be seeing far more of. It's a short window in the railways that gives much greater rein to those prepared to take a canvas and oils approach to their chosen hobby.
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#123 Removed a/c_Max Stafford

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 16:03

And here's what he was on about!
You can see more of this filth in my blog.

Mike and Larry might want to go and lie down in a dark room or something... ;)

Dave.

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#124 The Stationmaster

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 16:42

And here's what he was on about!
You can see more of this filth in my blog.
Mike and Larry might want to go and lie down in a dark room or something... ;)
Dave.

Very nicely done Dave (I can't bring myself to regard it as 'beautiful' of course but that's not your fault in any way :D ). And yes it is so very representative of a lot which was around at the end - during steam's last knockings - and to be honest I gave up going to look because it all got so dismal. And for me it came to feel rather out of place but 'my' bit of railway had gone through much the same a few years previously and I had no need to see it all again.

Far nicer to remember a shining clean Black 5 on 'The Lakes Express' not even a handful of years earlier - although even by then the Caprotti Standard 5s in the North West weren't even as clean as your 'Brit'.
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#125 coachmann

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 18:21

I hope folk aren't too offended when I say I feel there is a danger of taking colour illustrations of yesteryear too literally. Colour photos were often over-exposed somewhat so that the negative or transparency would deliver detail in the shadow areas. This is not unusual even today. This had a knock on effect on other areas like muck, which reflected as a lighter tone than it actually was. I saw many locos in the usual condition for the time. Filthy yes, but not light grey.

I'll try to explain. One needs to compensate for what one sees in photos. If black, for example, were exposed correctly it would be black in a photo with no detail whatsoever. If one takes a light reading off black it will be exposed as mid gray because this is how metering systems are set up. This applies to soot encrusted walls around stations. The end result is light grey locos in light grey surroundings but they make for attractive pictures in albums. When pictures are correctly exposed on say an overcast day, they actually look under exposed and make poor candidates for colour albums.

Of course the principals of photography also applies to models and Dave's Britannia Pacific might not be as light in real life as it appears in his photo.

Edited by coachmann, 04 March 2012 - 18:22 .

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