Hornby Push Pull Set R4534

[Graham_Muz]

Godfrey

 

Perhaps maybe on both counts, but who am I to say... I don't wish to add to any potential frothing or speculation...

[Stevelewis]

I second the 2 BIL Hope, but perhaps it may be produced by another manufacturer?

Edited June 14, 2012 by Stevelewis

[Ceptic]

As Adam advised the trailer car in the Pull Push sets were converted from dia 2005 open thirds, and only 20 were convered for the pull push sets, and as this coach style was not already in Hornby's portfolio it made sense to create tooling that would give both versions.

 

These open thirds, as opposed to comparment stock, were indeed generally used as 'loose' strenthening vechiles and were also ofetn paired with resturant / kitchen vehciles to provide dining seating as they also originally had provison for tables.

 

I've got a photo (somewhere) of an extra (Loose) SO, added to a Swanage Pull-Push set.

As Graham has noted, the un-converted SOs were also used to augment various Restaurant Car sets.

Regarding whistles, some, not all, had these replaced by cab-end, roof-mounted, air-horns. At about the same time, the BCKs had the Cream (Yellow ?) 1st.Class Designation stripe added.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Ceptic

[Butler Henderson]

In stock at http://www.modelrailwaysdirect.co.uk/Hornby-R4534-BR-Pull-Push-Pack-2-Car/

[Guest Belgian]

You wait for ages and then two come along together! Picked up my two sets ( one train pack and one coach pack) this morning from Bob at Alton. I understand that the special edition M7 is to be 30005 and not 30029 which is the one in the train pack. Big hole in the wallet but they are absolutely superb. Congratulations to Hornby! Now why didn't they do the VEP to the same standard?

Godfrey

If there had been a 30005 it would have been a T1 not an M7, so this numbering seems unlikely (no. 5 was withdrawn in January 1950 so would have been 30005 if renumbered, although Bradley doesn't record any T1s as receiving BR numbers). Hornby have stated that the loose M7 will be 30029 in their recent newsletter, and I appreciate they often have a change of heart before the actual models appear, but I hope they don't number it 30005!

 

JE

Edited June 15, 2012 by Belgian

[Godfrey Glyn]

If there had been a 30005 it would have been a T1 not an M7, so this numbering seems unlikely (no. 5 was withdrawn in January 1950 so would have been 30005 if renumbered, although Bradley doesn't record any T1s as receiving BR numbers). Hornby have stated that the loose M7 will be 30029 in their recent newsletter, and I appreciate they often have a change of heart before the actual models appear, but I hope they don't number it 30005!

 

JE

 

JE You are quite right, my mistake I should have said 30055. If I had looked at the back of the Coach Pack (R4534) I would have seen a representation of a 30055 as R3159. I cannot find R3159 in the 2012 catalogue and on their website Hornby certainly has R3159 illustrated as 30029 so there would appear to be some confusion. Sorry to have provided additional confusion. I gather that they are only producing a very small number of them, so if anyone wants one you will need to get an order in with your usual supplier.

Godfrey

[brushman47544]

Get the coach pack when you see it - both Hattons and Rails are saying no longer available so presumably Hornby has sold out to exisiting orders.

 

Can't wait for mine, but it will be next week before it arrives knowing the time it takes post to get to Portugal. Hope my M7 still works after fitting it with a decoder. What a palaver - I will definitely only buy Hornby's M7 DCC fitted in future.

Edited June 15, 2012 by brushman47544

[Jon Gwinnett]

Any photos of the M7 anyone? Hate to nit-pick but the photos on Rails site suggest the smoke box door doesn't look much like the real thing?

 

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/gb/steam/SR/M7/30029-row.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/gb/steam/SR/M7/30029-grange.jpg

 

[bigherb]

Unless they have changed it from their previous issues it looks fine to me.

[Jon Gwinnett]

The links I added shows 30029 having a smoke box door secured by a normal handle, whereas the model appears to have a door secured by dog catches. And the flat plate the door closes into has prominent rivets/bolt heads on the real thing which don't appear to be present on the model. I thought Hornby had catered for these variations on earlier releases, although I may be mistaken, but since I turned up those 2 photos with a few seconds search surely Hornby could too?

[geoffers]

If anyone is struggling to find any of the Push-Pull sets the Bure Valley Railway (01263 733858) has 3 of the coach set left and about 5 of the loco plus coach set. The cost of the coach set was a very reasobable £59-99 when I picked mine up this morning.

[Stevelewis]

Hattons have 9 only of the Loco + 2 coaches set left currently.

 

Tim at Arcadia ( Shaw Nr Oldham 01706 882900) has 6 coach sets & £60.00 & 1 Loco + Coaches left

Edited June 16, 2012 by Stevelewis

[PhilH]

Hattons have 9 only of the Loco + 2 coaches set left currently.

 

Tim at Arcadia ( Shaw Nr Oldham 01706 882900) has 6 coach sets & £60.00 & 1 Loco + Coaches left

 

Thanks for the heads up Steve, managed to get one, very pleased as my order with one of the big boys was received too late apparently.

 

The guy was very helpful and pleasant too.

[Stevelewis]

Thanks for the heads up Steve, managed to get one, very pleased as my order with one of the big boys was received too late apparently.

 

The guy was very helpful and pleasant too.

 

Glad to help!

 

Tim is a nice Guy its virtually a one man business, he has a website www.arcadiarail.co.uk but does not do online orders it is always best to phone and it is surprising what can be located there

[NINJA]

Looking on the Hattons web site this morning the Coach Pack has disappeared completely off the coach section.

[PaulRhB]

Hattons have 9 only of the Loco + 2 coaches set left currently.

 

Tim at Arcadia ( Shaw Nr Oldham 01706 882900) has 6 coach sets & £60.00 & 1 Loco + Coaches left

Thanks Steve I was trying to find just the coaches and an excellent price too, been a while since I dealt with Arcadia and he appreciated the plug on RMweb

[Ceptic]

Any photos of the M7 anyone? Hate to nit-pick but the photos on Rails site suggest the smoke box door doesn't look much like the real thing?

 

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/gb/steam/SR/M7/30029-row.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/gb/steam/SR/M7/30029-grange.jpg

 

Dog-clamps it is, I'm afraid. Looks like re-numbering could be in order ?

 

[Caddy]

Had an email from Hattons telling me that they had removed the coach sets from their website because with all of the pre-orders still to be fulfilled they will have no stock left!

 

Looks like Hornby have a real winner here............

 

Thanks Butler Henderson and Stevelewis, I have ordered one successfully from Model Railways Direct, the value of RM Web shows once again.

[jonhall]

Vic Mitchell and Keith Smith's book "Branch line to Hayling" (Middleton Press, 1984) book shows two loose BCKs working on the Hayling Island Branch in the last months prior to its closure in Nov. 1963:

photo no. 26 shows BCK 6699 (ex-set 619) coupled to a Mk1 64' length 10-compt second hauled by Terrier 32650;

photo no. 52 showing BCK 6697 (ex-set 618) with another long Mk1 10-compt second hauled by 32646.

 

By then, the Terriers weren't fitted for push-pull operation and both were used as normal loco-hauled stock. Both carriages still had their old set numbers painted on, and amazingly, both survive in preservation owned by the Swanage Railway:

 

6697 http://www.cs.vintag...nfo.asp?Ref=530

6699 http://www.cs.vintag...nfo.asp?Ref=531

 

The railway has plans to restore a set of this type, as SO 1323 (ex-set 611) also survives http://www.cs.vintag...nfo.asp?Ref=397

 

Its plans are outlined in its document http://www.swanagera...d%20FEB2011.pdf

 

Maybe the railway could commission a limited edition version of 1323 and 6699 to raise funds??

 

Its a great shame that Swanage haven't managed to make more of the new release to promote their plans to reinstate a pushpull set - the dedicated website hasn't got beyond a single photo

 

http://swanagepushpullset.org/

 

From the plan

 

5.2 Push-Pull Set 619

The SRT plans to assemble a reformed push-pull set 619 with Brake Composite 6699 and Open Third 1323. A full description of the work is included below as it is planned to research grant possibilities during 2011 and submit application(s) later in the year and/or in 2012. It has long been the SRT’s intention to form a Maunsell push-pull set, with 6699 as the driving coach – initially with 1381. Although of the same series as the 1959/60 Opens chosen for conversion, 1381 was not itself converted and with the subsequent acquisition of 1323, the latter has been substituted.

6699 : was acquired for preservation in 1980, arriving on the Swanage Railway in 1991. It is in poor condition, although cosmetically restored externally in 1992 for a photographic charter. It had been protected by tarpaulin for the past few years and is now stored under cover off-site. Internally it is still in “ex-Chipman†condition, i.e. containing chemical and water tanks, piping and spray gear. It remains to be decided if driver’s controls for full push-pull operation will be installed as there is some doubt whether this mode of operation will be permitted.

1323 : from original push-pull set 611, it has been privately purchased and donated to the SRT. It is therefore, as an authentic push-pull conversion, that 1323 will be restored with 6699 in reformed set 619. 1323 is in very poorcondition having been stored in the open without protection for over 20 years until recently and will require total reconstruction.

 

It is envisaged that the following work will be required to both vehicles:

1. a complete strip of all exterior steel sheeting

2. renewal of timber frame, paying special attention to the bottom plate, re-using any sound original material.

3. fabrication of new gangway connectors and supporting structures at one (inner) end of each coach

4. strip out all tanks and associated pipes and spray gear (6699)

5. careful removal of any remaining undamaged window glass setting aside for reinstallation

6. as temporary measure, omit fitting of cage and fit out luggage space as small wheelchair/buggy area (6699)

7. careful removal of all window frames setting aside for reinstallation (6699)

8. refurbishment of all large droplight windows and operating gear, making new where necessary (1323)

9. provision and installation of complete new bodyside sheeting

10. complete refurbishment of all external doors and construction of new where necessary

11. rebuild areas where double doors had been created in passenger compartment and corridor (6699)

12. stripping and reconstruction of roof, replacing all timber framing and boarding

13. provision and fitting of new roof covering, canvas or specified alternative

14. provision and fitting of new roof ventilators

15. provision and fitting of new destination roof board brackets

16. overhaul and replacement where necessary of all running gear, bogies, vacuum brake gear

17. replacement of all steam heat piping, refurbishment and reconnection of radiators, controls etc., manufacturing new components to

original pattern where necessary, testing and commissioning of completed installation

18. lift all flooring throughout and renew

19. overhaul and replacement where necessary of primary electrics (batteries, switchgear and fusebox)

20. gritblasting/needle-gunning all underframe members, priming and painting in chassis black, to specification

21. refitting of all glazing, providing new glass and seals where necessary

22. provide new saloon, vestibule and toilet partitions (1323)

23. provide new compartment, vestibule and toilet partitions (6699)

24. provide new veneer finishes to original pattern

25. refurbishment and refitting of all internal sliding doors with runners and channels to original pattern

26. reinstallation of communication chain and fittings, including butterfly valves

27. rewiring throughout to all lights and switches

28. provision and fitting of new or refurbished light fittings

29. provision of wiring for new PA system

30. reconditioning all seat frames, manufacturing new to original pattern as required for both compartments and saloon, using components

supplied by SRT where available

31. reconditioning cushions, manufacturing new to original pattern as required for both compartments and saloon, using material supplied

by SRT where available

32. supply and fitting of new ceiling panels and painting to specification

33. refitting all internal panelling to corridors and vestibules

34. staining and varnishing all internal panelling

35. fitting of new linoleum to saloon and third class compartments and carpeting to the two first class compartments in 6699

36. painting externally in BR (Southern Region) post 1956 green with black ends, except driving end of 6699, to be in BR(SR) Green

37. application of appropriate numbering and lettering to bodysides and ends

38. fitting of control gear for push-pull operation in 6699, piping through 1323 for connection to locomotive

NB It is not proposed to fit toilets in this set as, in the conversion to push-pull operation, they were removed.

SRT notional estimated total cost for both vehicles : £250,000

NB For this part of the project to proceed, it will be reliant on grant income. Work therefore will be almost entirely carried out by

contractor to maintain the programme required by the grant provider. On the assumption that a grant application would realise £200,000, £50,000 would in all probability have to be provided in match-funding, this could be in volunteer labour in preparingthe coaches, e.g. stripping out and, maybe, some finishing work and provision of missing or replacement components.

 

 

 

Jon

Edited June 17, 2012 by jonhall

[jonhall]

These are some of the vehicles involved

Edited June 17, 2012 by jonhall

[Ceptic]

Certainly, a sad sight, jonhall,.. Even so,... many thanks for your photos.

 

They do appear, though, to answer SRman's post #38, questioning the presence of inner-end buffers.

The typical SR, oblong shanked, extendable, oval head type, are clearly shown.

Mike King's 'Illustrated History of Southern Coaches' has these drawn as fitted, as does C. Hayward's modelled set, in the Nov.1972 MRC.

 

To complement, here's this 1992 pic. of Maunsell SO No. S 1381 S, also at Swanage.

 

 

Cheers.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Ceptic

[SRman]

They do appear, though, to answer SRman's post #38, questioning the presence of inner-end buffers.

The typical SR, oblong shanked, extendable, oval head type, are clearly shown.

Mike King's 'Illustrated History of Southern Coaches' has these drawn as fitted, as does C. Hayward's modelled set, in the Nov.1972 MRC.

 

 

Cheers.

 

Yes. Thanks for the info ... I'll have to retro fit those inner buffers now! Thanks to both for the great pics.

Edited June 18, 2012 by SRman

[Graham_Muz]

Jon

 

An intersteing set of pictures, and like you I think that the Swanage have missed a trick here, I would have a thought a limited edition set 619 to raise funds for the restoration wold make sense.

 

SRman, sorry I meant to reply earlier to confirm the presense of the buffers on the inner ends but some reason never got round to it.

[PaulRhB]

and like you I think that the Swanage have missed a trick here, I would have a thought a limited edition set 619 to raise funds for the restoration wold make sense.

It certainly would with 30053 as the loco too Unfortunately I think the tight finances at Swanage might preclude the investment as Hornby tend to do theirs as commisions rather than Bachmann who do it themselves and donate the proceeds as per Shillingstone stn.

[Guest Belgian]

It looks like they have used the moulds for the early emblem models for this release from the picture above, as these had smooth smokeboxes whilst the late crest ones had raised rivets. Most M7s had raised rivets before BR came about anyway, so the smooth smokebox should have only been used on Southern or LSWR liveried examples.

 

JE