Kernow Kernow Model Centre announce weathered Dapol Westerns

[The Stationmaster]

I see Chromatic blue is being mentioned again.

 

Now I don't have any personal knowledge on this apart from what I've read, but the Yahoo WRDH group knows more about the WR hydraulics than anyone else I know and includes respected hydraulic expert and author Hugh Dady. Concensus on the group is that chromatic blue never existed as an official shade or unofficial experiment. Musketeer was, I believe, spray painted rather than brushed, but with standard BR blue. The poor wearing qualities of the early batches of BR blue paint, combined with the spray finish and the WR 'acid etch' effect carriage washers may have caused the paint to weather differently, but it wasn't a separate colour. After all, the whole point of the corporate image was to have consistent standards.

How are Dapol choosing the shade for this model ?

STEVE

Interesting topic as ever - so how do they explain the distinctly paler blue which appeared on the first D10XX repaint? Just curious.

[DapolDave]

Hi Steve,

 

No idea at present. I imagined that it would be like pictures of Chromatic Blue Hymeks i've seen.

 

Adrian N Curtis speculates in his book 'Western Liveries' that D1030 had a different kind of paint or application of Blue that made it look diffent in hue.

 

Certinaly on page 54 there's a picture of D1030 in this Blue and with small yellow panels and to me the Blue does look more 'chromatic' in hue (even if the picture is in black and white, if you get my meaning).

 

Other than that and the fact that we have sucessfully copied the 'Chromatic Blue' Hymek in N gauge so have no worries copying a type of 'Chromatic Blue', i think i'll leave it to the comissioner to have final say, as he reads here too a fair bit.

 

cheers

Dave

[Pennine MC]

^{Theres a pic of D1020 HERO somewhere and it looks almost grey its so over washed..........}

 

http://www.westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/d1020.1411/

 

[andyman7]

http://www.westernth...ads/d1020.1411/

 

WOW - if someone wants to commission a Limited Edition of that, put me down for one...

[owentherail]

Hero looks superb, sadly he went early.

[Gwiwer]

That is precisely what I meant when I referred to the "Bath Road Effect" above and the condition of quite a few WR locos (not jut hydraulics - some 47s were as bad at times) in the mid 70s. I still reckon I'm game for giving it a go on a Hornby body which will come out of traffic as soon as the Dapol ones enter service.

[D1059]

Hi Steve,

 

No idea at present. I imagined that it would be like pictures of Chromatic Blue Hymeks i've seen.

 

Adrian N Curtis speculates in his book 'Western Liveries' that D1030 had a different kind of paint or application of Blue that made it look diffent in hue.

 

Certinaly on page 54 there's a picture of D1030 in this Blue and with small yellow panels and to me the Blue does look more 'chromatic' in hue (even if the picture is in black and white, if you get my meaning).

 

Other than that and the fact that we have sucessfully copied the 'Chromatic Blue' Hymek in N gauge so have no worries copying a type of 'Chromatic Blue', i think i'll leave it to the comissioner to have final say, as he reads here too a fair bit.

 

cheers

Dave

 

All I can ask, is please check with Hugh - he is a goldmine of useful information on all things hydraulic

 

STEVE

[winterbournecm]

Anyone on facebook could join the excellent diesel hydraulic group on there, and reads Hughs compelling piece on the chromatic blue western debate. I must admit Bernard Mills excellent picture of Musketeer at Saltash with SYE does look a lighter blue, but I'm not prepared to speculate on the actual shade of blue.

[brushman47544]

Isn't the actual shade of blue used on the real loco a bit of a red herring? Surely what matters is that the model looks the same colour as the prototype. So if the way the paint was applied to the real loco meant the colour looked different to what we know as BR corporate blue, so should it on the model, even if that means that the colour used on the model is different to get the correct colour match.

 

I've not seen a colour photo of blue and "chromatic" blue Westerns alongside each other, but wouldn't that be the best way to decide what colour the model of Musketeer should be?

[winterbournecm]

Red herring? Is that a derivative of marroon we dont know about?

[Gwiwer]

Red herring? Is that a derivative of marroon we dont know about?

Sounds more like something DB Schenker might do

[winterbournecm]

I love the BR blue - hue topic. It comes around a lot these days. I remember 47580 & 55022 coming down west last year in April & June respectively. The blue on the locos looked almost royal blue, so different to the darker FGW blue that dominates the rails these days. I actually like the dark DRS / FGW blue compared to the green of earlier years, and the rancid fag packet liveries we had to contend with.

 

Perhaps our film cameras did something to photos that digital doesnt. Compare these two BR blue locos from yesteryear & more recent times both in sunny conditions.

 

 

 

 

[brushman47544]

I love the BR blue - hue topic. It comes around a lot these days. I remember 47580 & 55022 coming down west last year in April & June respectively. The blue on the locos looked almost royal blue, so different to the darker FGW blue that dominates the rails these days. I actually like the dark DRS / FGW blue compared to the green of earlier years, and the rancid fag packet liveries we had to contend with.

 

Perhaps our film cameras did something to photos that digital doesnt. Compare these two BR blue locos from yesteryear & more recent times both in sunny conditions.

The difference is just as likely to be because the "BR blue" used is not exactly the same colour. My recollections of Class 50s in plain blue is pretty close to your photos whereas the 47 looks too bright a blue to me.

[winterbournecm]

I'm glad others agree. Even the blue-grey retro repaints of the recent mk 111s look brighter than how I remember them.

 

I recall a story of a maroon colour dilemna when preserved Western Courier was repainted by Graham Howells and colleagues at Swindon many years ago. Long deliberation was taken over the correct shade, with the actual name of the paint checked and rechecked. The party opened the tins with screwdrivers and looked oddly at one another! Further colours checks were made, and the shade was insisted upon. A start was made only for one of the society officals to turn up and clasp his head in terror as he saw the loco repaint in progress! So obviously, the eye can distinguish better than "real life"! Could anyone verify the tale, and maybe the team involved.

[deltic17]

I think the issue with BR Blue and other liveries is that there were many differences between locos in service. In depot photos where you would get a group of engines you often see various shades of yellow end (faded, newly painted, and 101 different shades in between) - on sunny days towards the end of the day the yellow end often took on a orange like yellow colour - in a similar way the same applies to the BRBlue. I think the photos compared above are not an ideal comparison because the 50 has the sun across but on the front whereas the 47 has the sun across but from slightly behind which naturally makes it look lighter. Also the 47 is bang on the coast at Penzance which with reflections off the sea on a sunny day had to be allowed for slightly during exposure when taking the shot. I do think the class 50 photo is the more realistic colour though from what I remember. It is further complicated by which film was used in days gone by Agfa had a slight green cast,Kodachrome a slight blue cast. I model in O guage and I think the BRBlue used on the Heljan diesels is a pretty good starting point.

[Geoff Endacott]

Why do we still keep getting this nonsense about blue Westerns with small yellow panels being painted in a different shade of blue?

 

http://www.dieselimagegallery.com/detail/53-Class-22;22;D6318;Rail-Blue;RB;Full-yellow-ends;Bristol-Bath-Road;Bristol-Temple-Meads;Bristol;D1057;Western-Chieftain;Western;2441968;1968;Jim-Binnie;0704;D6318_1_S.html

 

Geoff Endacott

[brushman47544]

Why do we still keep getting this nonsense about blue Westerns with small yellow panels being painted in a different shade of blue?

 

http://www.dieselimagegallery.com/detail/53-Class-22;22;D6318;Rail-Blue;RB;Full-yellow-ends;Bristol-Bath-Road;Bristol-Temple-Meads;Bristol;D1057;Western-Chieftain;Western;2441968;1968;Jim-Binnie;0704;D6318_1_S.html

 

Geoff Endacott

 

I thought we had moved on from this issue and were now discussing how the blue looked in different light conditions, making it appear that there was a difference in colour. The photo you linked to does show that in those low sun and light conditions, the blue looks the same. But equally in many of the well known published photos, particularly in very sunny conditions, the blue of the SYP Westerns has a lighter appearance than the FYE versions. The way locos were painted (e.g. spray or by hand) can affect the finish and the way they look in different light conditions. The film used and its reproduction can affect the colour too. Look at these two copies of the same photo of D1030 by Bernard Mills and you can see the difference - darker first then lighter on the KMRC website:

 

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=d1030+western+musketeer&hl=en&safe=active&sa=X&tbo=d&biw=1280&bih=832&tbm=isch&tbnid=3gqGLNL5Pp-1QM:&imgrefurl=http://classictractionimages.weebly.com/cornwall.html&docid=DFKMtiuOxmRsDM&imgurl=http://classictractionimages.weebly.com/uploads/2/2/8/2/2282195/1706798.jpg&w=250&h=155&ei=Amb-UP2lBcy1hAeW44DgDQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1037&vpy=447&dur=1585&hovh=124&hovw=200&tx=123&ty=78&sig=110212401547998205893&page=2&tbnh=115&tbnw=167&start=29&ndsp=29&ved=1t:429,r:34,s:0,i:189

 

and

 

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/images/prod_35096.jpg

 

When it comes to the new models, it's up to the manufacturer (Dapol) or commissioner (Kernow) to decide what colour blue they want to replicate on the SYP models, which is likely to be influenced by what they think will sell best. If the colour looks different in certain conditions, it is perfectly legitimate for the model to be a different colour too.

[the-gog]

Have been reading this thread with much interest. Remember that discussion of chromatic blue also applies to Cl45 "Peaks". From various photos of Westerns and Peaks in an alleged chromatic blue livery, it does look different, even if it wasn't originally meant to. Monastral blue (i.e. standard British Rail blue) has a large element of green in it. The locos in chromatic blue seem to display significantly less green than those in Monastral blue.

 

My 2p's worth. Oh to go back with a modern digital camera and a grey card.

[SRman]

Certainly the early version of matt BR blue used on the class 73s looks lighter than the later colour. While I have never seen that referred to as 'chromatic' blue, I remember some photos of the Westerns in full sunshine and the blue seemed to take on a slightly metallic look which other locos in the same shot didn't have.

 

One can demonstrate the effect with models by varnishing with matt, satin or gloss over the same base colour; each will look quite different when the varnish has dried.