Bachmann announce GWR 'City'

[Coppercap]

I believe the black frames/garter crest livery was adopted in 1906 (?) and the renumbering was in 1912, so yes City of Bath is correct for a period of around 6 years or so. Possibly more or less depending on how quickly it was repainted.

No, it's still not correct at all, because 'City of Bath (just like the model of 'City of Truro') is in a later physical condition, with details which were not present until after 1912.

[Miss Prism]

Here is City of Bath in its early days, with a different bogie, an early chimney, and no top feed.

https://farm6.static.flickr.com/5218/5496177805_e63b460e9f_b.jpg

 

I don't think top feeds started happening before 1912.

[Edwardian]

To my relatively untutored eye, there seem to be three other physical features present on the Bachmann model to be wary of.

 

First, at some stage, additional plating was added to the frames.  In comparison with the earlier condition, this gives the impression that someone has gone mad with a rivet gun.

 

Second, little boxes, which I take to be sand boxes, are added to the fronts of the splashers.

 

RCTS states that the strengthening of the frames and the fitting of enlarged sand boxes was undertaken 1904-1906.

 

The third issue is that I believe the Bachmann tooling represents the extended smoke boxes. RCTS is imprecise, saying merely that longer smoke boxes came in just prior to super heating, which spanned 1910-1912 for the Class.

 

RCTS states that top feeds were introduced to the class in 1911.

 

Here is a picture of 3441, the date of which is given as August 1909: https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/GWRSteam-1/Churchward-Locomotives/Churchward-Tender-Locomotives/Churchward-City-or-3700-class-/Churchward-City-or-3700-class/i-p66qBFM, This shows additional riveting to the frames and the sand boxes, but, as yet, no top feed.  It also lacks an extended smoke box.  3441 was superheated in June 1911.

 

While you certainly cannot make the Bachmann tooling fit the original period of the class, you might be able to back-date a little because the top feed can be removed from the Bachmann model, allowing you to fill the gaps in the bonnet and add lining.  However, you cannot go back very far without running into the problem of the extended smoke box.   

 

3433/3710, City of Bath, apparently was one of a number which carried a cast iron chimney, replaced 1907-1909 with a built-up copper-capped pattern. She was superheated in September 1911, so it is assumed that she must also have carried the longer smoke box by then.  She would have been numbered 3710 in the 1912 renumbering.  What is not clear to me is whether she would have had the top feed fitted before or after that.

 

In the absence of better information and/or a reliably dated photograph, the prudent course is, presumably, to assume that the Bachmann model best represents 3710 from 1912 on.  Here we do have a precisely dated photograph, as 3710 was involved in a fatal accident at Yeovil Pen Mill on 8 August 1913. 

 

The Bachmann model may be fairly compared with this photograph, as the Bachmann tooling is probably closest to the probable c.1911/2-1914 condition.   

 

EDIT: I have just looked at Rob's picture of his City of Bath.  This seems to feature additional raised plating surrounding the hornblocks of the driving wheels. This I take to be a later go at strengthening the frames.  Possibly it's unique to Truro. Though these raised portions can disappear in photographs at certain angles, so it is hard to tell! It would be hard to render the frames flush on the model and re-rivet!  Also, I am assuming that the model is intended to represent the pre-Great War condition, though I seem to recall that there were examples of lined livery being restored to some of the class post-war. 

[Edwardian]

I have come across a nice example.

 

If RCTS is correct, that top feeds were introduced to the class in 1911, given that the renumbering took place in December 1912, there may have been a brief period during which City of Bath ran as 3433 with a top feed.  I hope that was clear from the post above, it's just that I can't say for sure.

 

Well, 3402 Halifax is a certain example: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1757.htm .

 

Rebuilt from an Atbara in 1908 and superheated in 1910 (first City to be so), here is a dated photograph of 9 July 2012.  All the changes reflected by the Bachmann tooling are in place, up to and including the top feed, yet she has some months to go before being renumbered 3702. 

 

A pretty good fit for a Bachmann city in 1906 livery.

[Coach bogie]

I have come across a nice example.

 

If RCTS is correct, that top feeds were introduced to the class in 1911, given that the renumbering took place in December 1912, there may have been a brief period during which City of Bath ran as 3433 with a top feed.  I hope that was clear from the post above, it's just that I can't say for sure.

 

Well, 3402 Halifax is a certain example: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1757.htm .

 

Rebuilt from an Atbara in 1908 and superheated in 1910 (first City to be so), here is a dated photograph of 9 July 2012.  All the changes reflected by the Bachmann tooling are in place, up to and including the top feed, yet she has some months to go before being renumbered 3702. 

 

A pretty good fit for a Bachmann city in 1906 livery.

 

But the frame reinforcements, as per the Bachmann, are not present on your shot of Halifax.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Edwardian]

But the frame reinforcements, as per the Bachmann, are not present on your shot of Halifax.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Yes, Mike, see my earlier comments on this.

 

It is as close as you are going to get.

[Miss Prism]

A pretty good fit for a Bachmann city in 1906 livery.

I think that is a early short-fender Churchward 3500g, and therefore not at all what Bachmann has behind CoT.

[Edwardian]

I think that is a early short-fender Churchward 3500g, and therefore not at all what Bachmann has behind CoT.

 

Well, yes, I meant the condition of the locomotive.  To be frank, I hadn't even looked at the tender (of either Halifax or of the Bachmann model).

 

It seems to me likely that there will have been a short period, of at least some months during 1912, in which City of Bath ran with a top-feed and its original number, though, as I say, I can neither prove that nor be certain on the information I have available.  I would probably run Bath in this period with the Bachmann-supplied etches for the original number.

 

I simply meant that Halifax was another example of a reasonable match between a prototype and the livery/tooling combination used by Bachmann. I accept that the Bachmann tooling is probably not a perfect match for anything in service, and probably only really represents Truro in preservation.

 

That said, we are close to counting rivets on the mainframes here, and I reckon that the Bachmann tooling in the 1906 livery gets you pretty close, as I said, to the circa 1911/2-1914 condition.  I am trying to be positive about a model! 

 

As I have an interest in representing certain secondary routes, of the sort to which the Cities were rapidly cascaded, in the 1912-14 period, I am not adverse to the idea of running one of these Bachmann Cities with only minimal and non-traumatic(!) detail modifications.

 

EDIT:  In fact I am rather spurred on to consider doing something with this model.

 

As I say, I think I'll keep the top feed and stick to the original number.  I won't need the works plates, by the looks of things, so can remove the transfers.  I will count rivets to see if it is worth adding a few more to the main frames.

 

It seems to me that, in terms of finish, Bachmann's City suffers from the same rather aggressive orange lining that afflicts its Hall. It may simply be too thick. It could probably be toned down, but I notice that the lining on the model does not extend to the base of the firebox.  You can see that it clearly does in the photograph of the prototype.

 

The lower wash-out plugs on the right of the firebox would need to be filled and new ones inserted lower down.  Don't know about the left side.  That seems probably the most cosmetically risky alteration.  

 

The other main detail is the smoke box lubricator.  Does anyone make a casting of this in 4mm?

[Miss Prism]

Fair enough. I'm just a bit obsessed with tenders at the moment. That middle-style of lubricator and pipe cover might be available from Brassmasters, btw, as it is a Finney casting in the Bulldog kit. The superheater damper cylinder thingy lower down on the smokebox would need to be scratched (small bit of tube would do it). And take off the rivets from the smokebox rings...

 

Your note about the Cities being 'demoted' to secondary routes 1912-14 is interesting. I think they were still doing a lot of 'class 1' (as we might call it now) work at that time.

[Edwardian]

Fair enough. I'm just a bit obsessed with tenders at the moment. That middle-style of lubricator and pipe cover might be available from Brassmasters, btw, as it is a Finney casting in the Bulldog kit. The superheater damper cylinder thingy lower down on the smokebox would need to be scratched (small bit of tube would do it). And take off the rivets from the smokebox rings...

 

Your note about the Cities being 'demoted' to secondary routes 1912-14 is interesting. I think they were still doing a lot of 'class 1' (as we might call it now) work at that time.

 

That was my next question - is it simply a case of not showing up on the photographs, or is it the case that the smokebox wrapper should be flush riveted?

 

We had the same issue with the Oxford Dean Goods, as I recall.

 

IIRC RCTS (re-shelved and no longer to hand!), has something to say about the Cities being progressively bumped off services, latterly off LNW/GW joint line service in favour of the Counties.

 

Probably City of Bath was elsewhere in 1912, but never mind.  I was interested that she was found at Yeovil in 1913.

[Coach bogie]

It is post 1914 that the move to 'other' services appeared to be noticeable mainly due to 15 new Saints (2941-2955) and 20 new stars (4041 -4060) entering traffic during the previous 2 years taking over the bulk of their original work. I haen't got my allocation cards with me, but the great move north of many of the engines was underway.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[The Stationmaster]

Fair enough. I'm just a bit obsessed with tenders at the moment. That middle-style of lubricator and pipe cover might be available from Brassmasters, btw, as it is a Finney casting in the Bulldog kit. The superheater damper cylinder thingy lower down on the smokebox would need to be scratched (small bit of tube would do it). And take off the rivets from the smokebox rings...

 

Your note about the Cities being 'demoted' to secondary routes 1912-14 is interesting. I think they were still doing a lot of 'class 1' (as we might call it now) work at that time.

 

'Cities' were still on Class A (=Class 1 now) in the inter-war years and almost up to withdrawal in the case of those based at Oxford

[Edwardian]

Memory is a treacherous thing; the reference to the LNW/GW joint line probably arises from reference to the Counties working that line, and it seems that, though they suffered constant demotion, I wrote them off rather too soon!

 

The information in RCTS is a little vague as to dates and details, but they were rapidly superseded on the West of England expresses, though they do seem to have clung to long-distance express routes in the years up to the Great War, albeit continually superseded:

 

For their first year or two they monopolised the expresses to Cornwall via Bristol ... Atlantics and 4-6-0s pressed hard on their heels, so it was their constant fate to be soon superseded on whatever services they were engaged ... they went on the Birmingham route, only to be replaced by the "Counties." They next appeared on the South Wales expresses, again to be ousted .... About 1912 they were on fast trains to Weymouth .... In 1923 half the class was in the Wolverhampton Division ... for short distance express work ... The Oxford engines worked fast trains to London.   

[Miss Prism]

That was my next question - is it simply a case of not showing up on the photographs, or is it the case that the smokebox wrapper should be flush riveted?

 

Snaphead riveted smokeboxes didn't start happening until c 1920, and it didn't start to become prevalent on express locos until 1924/5. The back ring was usually the first to get the snapheads. (I'm generalising of course.)

 

 

[Coach bogie]

Well, 3402 Halifax is a certain example: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1757.htm .

 

Rebuilt from an Atbara in 1908 and superheated in 1910 (first City to be so), here is a dated photograph of 9 July 2012.  All the changes reflected by the Bachmann tooling are in place, up to and including the top feed, yet she has some months to go before being renumbered 3702. 

 

A pretty good fit for a Bachmann city in 1906 livery.

 

Halifax had a varied allocation history and is one that managed to stay in the home counties for most of its' life. I find it interesting how frequently all the cities required a Swindon Works visit.

 

Weymouth 09/01, Swindon Factory 03/02, Weymouth 04/02, Swindon 11/02, Swindon Factory 03/03, Westbourne Park 06/03, Swindon Factory 10/04, Cardiff, 01/05, Swindon Factory 10/06, Cardiff 02/07, Swindon Factory 10/08, Cardiff 02/09, Swindon Factory 06/10, Cardiff 08/10, Swindon Factory 12/11, Banbury 05/12, Oxford 07/12, Swindon Factory 01/14, Oxford 03/14, Swindon Factory 03/16, Oxford 01/16, Wolverhampton 10/18, Swindon Factory 12/18, Oxford 09/19, Swindon Factory 11/22, Oxford 01/23,  Old Oak 10/23, Oxford 12/23, Swindon Factory 10/24, Oxford 01/25, Reading 05/27, Leamington 08/28, Condemned 11/4/29

 

Some of the others started in the West Country before being moved north. One example being the last build, City of Exeter.

 

Exeter 06/03, Swindon Factory 06/04, Exeter 08/04, Laira 12/04, Bath Road 06/05, Swindon Factory 02/06, Bath Road 06/06, Swindon Factory 03/07, Exeter 06/07, Newton  Abbot 12/07, Swindon Factory 02/10, Bath Road 05/10. Swindon Factory 09/11, Bath Road 12/11, Swindon Factory 02/12, Bath Road 04/12, Cardiff 03/13, Wolverhampton 04/13, Bath Road 05/13, Swindon Factory 12/13, Worcester 05/14, Swindon Factory 03/16, Worcester 07/16, Swindon Factory 04/18, Wolverhampton 10/18, Chester 05/19, Wolverhampton 07/19, Swindon Factory 11/20, Chester 02/21, Chester 04/22, Swindon Factory 03/23, Chester 05/23, Wolverhampton 07 /24, Tyseley Works 04/25, Wolverhampton 07/25, Swindon Factory 12/26, Oxford 03/27 Condemned 11/4/29

 

Mike Wiltshire

[brian777999]

What about City of London with red frames : is that correct ?

[nathan70000]

Nope. In fact I suspect the monogram symbol on the tender is incorrect for all but the earliest few. CoL shouldn't have top feed in that condition either; and there are probably a myriad of other things too but I'll leave that to the GWR experts....

 

Seriously considering buying a 'City of Bath'. Do Bachmann provide the post 1912 plates with the loco?

[Edwardian]

What about City of London with red frames : is that correct ?

 

See post #153 on the City of Bath, discussing how far back you can go in the 1906 livery (black frames) with the Bachmann tooling.  Answer: 1911/2 at the earliest.

 

So, no, any red-framed version (pre-1906 livery) will be inaccurate, unless it's Truro in 'as-preserved' state.  

 

 

Nope. In fact I suspect the monogram symbol on the tender is incorrect for all but the earliest few. CoL shouldn't have top feed in that condition either; and there are probably a myriad of other things too but I'll leave that to the GWR experts....

 

Seriously considering buying a 'City of Bath'. Do Bachmann provide the post 1912 plates with the loco?

 

No.

 

But, Bachmann's combination of tooling and number is not necessarily wrong.  See post #154.  The last major physical change reflected by the Bachmann tooling is the top feed. Top feeds were introduced to the class in 1911, and, given that the renumbering took place in December 1912, there may have been a brief period during which City of Bath ran as 3433 with a top feed.  She probably did, at least for some months during 1912. 

 

If you want to represent her after December 1912, yes, you need to renumber. Bachmann only include 3433 plates, I believe.