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Help needed with GWR wagon identification and brakes





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#1 RedgateModels

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 14:58

I recently rescued an ABS O gauge wagon kit from Mr Morton's Emporium for a small sum and now I'm looking what I've bought.

Clearly it's not what it says on the box as it's a 5 plank not 4 plank. I spoke to the proprietor of ABS and he thought I might have an O.11 5 plank kit and sent me some instructions in exchange for an SAE (cheers chap!)

Looking at the instructions I now think I might have RCH axleboxes so this would make it an O.23 or O.25 right?

DSC01431.jpg

If this is the case, should I have brakes on one side only, with a reversing clutch on the braked side and a normal pivot on the other for the brake levers?

OR if it's not an O.23/25 then what is it?

can you tell I know nowt about wagons :lol:

Edited by RedgateModels, 14 March 2012 - 15:19 .


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#2 RedgateModels

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 15:18

also ....

what's the difference between an O.23 and an O.25? - there's a hint in the instructions that you use accessories to make an O.25 from an O.23, but no detail as to what they are .....

#3 hmrspaul

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 16:13

also ....

what's the difference between an O.23 and an O.25? - there's a hint in the instructions that you use accessories to make an O.25 from an O.23, but no detail as to what they are .....

An O25 is a substantial rebuild to have bottom hoppers for grain, so forget it.

Difficult to tell O11 from O23. O11 are only 10ton so have 8 x 3 3/4 in. journals, a type of Churchward brake (DC 111) and, according to diagram a sheet support. the diagonals do not have a curved foot - I think Adrian is correct and that is what you have. The O23 have various differences but most obviously the lowest plank of the door is tapered outwards and yours doesn't have that.

I don't know how you got down to these three diagrams, according to

Atkins, A. G. Beard, W. Tourret, R. (1998) GWR Goods Wagons A historical survey. Tourret Publishing, Abingdon, Oxon. 530 pages ISBN 0-905878-07-8

there were 10 diagrams of opens which were 16ft oh. These are tabulated. Your model railway club should have a copy.

Paul Bartlett
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#4 RedgateModels

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 17:53

Well, I'm going off the instruction sheet from ABS, it says that the only wagons with RCH axleboxes were O.23/25, hence my question about them. I don't think I have the components for a DC brake either ....

I'll have another look based on your info Paul ;)

Edited by RedgateModels, 14 March 2012 - 17:55 .


#5 buffalo

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 18:52

As Paul said, you need to check the tables in Atkins et al, or maybe provide some more details such as whether it has a sheet support and the type of buffers. However, it has the wider top plank that was introduced around 1904 and does not have the "sacktruck" door (one in which the bottom plank is angled outwards at the base. This was introduced on most, though not all, opens after WW1. Yours is the "flat with lip" door type and has straight diagonals, so could be O11, O15 or O20, but definitely not O23 which had a sacktruck door. O11 was non-fitted, DCIII brakes and mostly GWR self-contained buffers. O15 and O20 were also DCIII, with the same buffers, but vac fitted. Most, if not all, had sheet rails for some, if not all, of their lives.

Nick

#6 RedgateModels

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 19:46

I'll post some more pics tomorrow ;)

the buffers are quite hefty, the box says sheet rail, but I'm not sure if I have the bits. Certainly no vac cyliner so unfitted methinks.

#7 hmrspaul

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 20:14

Well, I'm going off the instruction sheet from ABS, it says that the only wagons with RCH axleboxes were O.23/25, hence my question about them. I don't think I have the components for a DC brake either ....

I'll have another look based on your info Paul ;)


They are GWR split boxes, and look to be attempting to be small so correct. Hefty buffers is also correct, - self contained as used by GWR.

Everything points to O11

Paul Bartlett

#8 Il Grifone

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 21:28

There is a number on the solebar plate which might help with identification, though I can't argue with O11. Unfortunately I can't quite make it out.

#9 RedgateModels

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:30

OK, some more snaps

buffers:

DSC01433.jpg

close up of solebar plate:

DSC01434.jpg

and some of the unidentified whitemetal bits:

DSC01435.jpg

I know there's a couple of door bangs there, but as for the rest ???? any sheet rail bits/fittings?

Also no sign of DC brake levers etc - I might have to make a mongrel/rebuild and pretend it's an O.11 with rebuilt Morton brakes as I have all the parts for simple lever type brakes.

#10 Poor Old Bruce

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:46

Top left are door bangers - and a label clip?

Could bottom left be a brake handle?

Bottom right are to do with a bar for supporting a tarpaulin sheet. Not sure if they are attached to the body or the bar though.

Top middle looks like some sort of hanger bracket but then the bigger lump appears to be the attachment to the underframe.

Top right - No idea!

HTH??????

Edited for typo

Edited by Poor Old Bruce, 15 March 2012 - 09:15 .


#11 petethemole

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:49

The 2 trapezoid shapes are part of the sheet rail assembly. They fit on the vertical bits of the rail at each end above the pivot. On the sprue with the door bangers is a label clip. Others look like brake bits but not complete.
Pete

#12 Il Grifone

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:00

According to Atkins et al the possibilities are O11/15/20. (O15 and 20 are vacuum braked leaving O11). RCH axleboxes and buffers only appear on wagons 17' 6" over headstocks. I think the kit boxes are supposed to be GWR OK boxes.

The number appears to be 137176. I'll check on this

EDIT: 137176 is obviously wrong, 13xxxxx numbers do not appear before O32.

The numbers given for O11 are: including 10xxx-18xxx/21xxx-24xxx/50501-600/86001-89000/90501-92600

There is a photo of an OPEN A on the cover of Vol. 1 (not O11). This shows the semi-circular guides for the sheet rail are missing from the kit.

Edited by Il Grifone, 15 March 2012 - 13:38 .


#13 GWR-Fanatic

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 22:41

I might be able to post a few websites I use for modelling purposes (though in my personal case, N gauge), as there are one or two resources I use for reference of freight stock on my own layout.

If I can locate the ones I use, I will endeavour to post them, as I do find them great reference points.

#14 RedgateModels

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 08:32

I'm stripping the castings today so hopefully I might be able to make the number clearer without the paint.

When it comes to it, I have to work with what I've got I guess and make something that is a passable representation of the prototype, with a dash of modeller's licence thrown in. I only paid a tenner for the kit so I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Interesting research though, those DC brakes were weird, especially the swan neck ones

Looking at what I've got, Morton brakes are the only option, so that suggests O.22 or O.23, discounting O.25 as it needs the modified floor etc.

I don't suppose an angled bottom door plank is beyond my fabrication skills, so if this is a possibility, can anyone provide a pic/link of such a door fitment?

Thanks for your continued patience :)

Edited by RedgateModels, 16 March 2012 - 08:38 .


#15 RedgateModels

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 08:53

Oh wow, OK, I guess the ABS casting had the strapping cast onto it too as the instructions say cut the strapping away where the plank fits. No biggie , more modelling than I expected ;)

cheers

So, it's single sided Morton brakes, angled sack truck door and possibly a sheet rail if I can fabricate the missing bits (end brackets where the rail attaches and the runners for the rail, oh and the rail itself!)

OK?

#16 RedgateModels

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 10:35

Ta, next week is fine, the Superstrip is struggling at the moment with the paint finish, although the epoxy seems to be softening .....

#17 hmrspaul

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 10:48

But you will need to alter to RCH axleboxes, the model is clearly an attempt at the much smaller journaled OK GWR box, as has been mentioned by several posters.

#18 RedgateModels

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 10:52

Did the O.22 not have GWR axleboxes? - the ABS instructions seem to suggest this.

I fully expect to have to make some compromise from prototype fidelity to bash this kit into something resembling a GWR wagon ;) - I'm aiming to make the compromise as small as possible and the axleboxes are vague enough (to my eyes) to be either.

Appreciate your input Paul

#19 hmrspaul

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:44

Did the O.22 not have GWR axleboxes? - the ABS instructions seem to suggest this.

I fully expect to have to make some compromise from prototype fidelity to bash this kit into something resembling a GWR wagon ;) - I'm aiming to make the compromise as small as possible and the axleboxes are vague enough (to my eyes) to be either.

Appreciate your input Paul


Mine, and others point, is that this is a very small box - see how low it sits. This is correct for the 10ton O11,. I simply don't understand why you want to go to the effort of making the later diagram, with adding to the doors etc. Parts for the DC III brake rigging should be available - from Adrian at ABS for example. You need the sheet rail Yoke for either - ABS will do these, as do Parkside.

Paul

#20 RedgateModels

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:55

Thanks again Paul,

I was hoping to keep cost right down on this build, the kit was bought as a bargain after all ;)

I will contact Adrian to see what can be done

#21 RedgateModels

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 13:27

Well, just had a long conversation with Adrian, sent him a photo of all the bits I have plus the ones posted above and he's certain I have almost an O.23. He says the axleboxes are his RCH ones.

He's sending me some side door bottom planks and another label clip next week.

Update on the paint stripper - one side has fallen away from it's side already. Lets see what's left on Monday :)

#22 RedgateModels

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:28

Sooo,

after a weekend soak in Superstrip all the epoxy has given up and the kit is now back to it's individual parts. there's paint left on though and it's all back in for another 24 hours then I'll give it a good scrub with an old toothbrush.

#23 RedgateModels

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:01

Just to close this off, thanks for all your advice etc - the parts are now paint free and rebuilding will commence soon. I will post details in my modelling blog







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