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IZA (Hfirrs3) Cargowaggon Twin Vans in S7





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#26 lyneux

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 21:20

Really enjoying following along with this. Assuming that the body will be done as an etch? Look forward to seeing how you do the 3d to 2d as part of this!

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#27 Pugsley

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:12

Thanks Guy, yes the body will be etched, with the exception of the central support, which will be 3d printed and resin cast. The doors will consist of 4 separate layers, which is going to be interesting to work out!

I'm dreading the 3d to 2d stage, as it's something I've not done before, but I'm sure it will be fine :)

Edited by Pugsley, 05 April 2012 - 11:13 .


#28 Pugsley

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 18:22

Another 2-3 hours of work this afternoon has seen the outer frame locations tweaked and I've also made a start on the end supports. On the prototype, these seem nothing more than a pair of I beams, welded together at an angle, which is then panelled in to form the end. To represent this, and the way that the bufferbeam is proud of the end panelling, I've created a half-etched part that provides this detail. The next stage is to create the spine of the I Beam sections, then the outer panel to sit on top.

This is how things look now:
IZA_assembly2.jpg

I'm concentrating on the outer end first, which I can then copy for the inner end, and modify as appropriate. There are differences between the two ends, the most noticeable being the different shape of the end stanchions to accommodate the buffers inside of them, as opposed to outside of them on the outer end.
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#29 Pugsley

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 18:56

A few more hours work has lead to the outer end looking almost complete. The Strengthening panels on the end have proved quite time consuming, the lower one still needs tweaking, but their installing on the model has highlighted an error with the lower support ribs. All of these are too high - it looks like I've used what should have been the top distance from the buffers as the base, so these will need correcting.

Progress to date:
IZA_end2.jpg

Luckily, most of the parts from the outer end can also be used for the inner end, which will speed up the design process noticeably. I knew the ends would be the most time consuming parts, purely because that's where most of the detail is on these. The doors should be comparatively simple after all this!
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#30 Pugsley

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 21:40

A bit more progress to report over the last few days - the outer end is more or less complete, with the corrections required noted in the last post now done, and I've turned my attention to the inner ends. The outer ends currently:

IZA_assembly3.jpg

The inner end has been designed quite quickly, as a lot of the parts are similar to the outer end, they just need to be tweaked to fit with the slightly different angles of the main support. The next job is to design all of the pieces that fit between the frame, and between the frame and the outer edges. This is how things currently stand:

IZA_assembly4.jpg

I estimate there's another 6-8 hours work gone into this since the last update, so this project is certainly racking up the hours - now I know why I don't normally count them!

Edited by Pugsley, 16 April 2012 - 21:41 .

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#31 Pugsley

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 21:00

While RMweb was broken, I managed to get a bit more done to this project, although you can't see much as most of the time was spent re-doing the bracing on the ends as I wasn't happy with the first attempt. This is how things stand now on the outer end:
IZA_assembly6.jpg

the inner end:
IZA_assembly5.jpg

And this is where most of the last couple of days modelling time has been focussed:
IZA_assembly7.jpg

I know the underside isn't the most glamorous part of a wagon, but I wanted to incorporate as much detail as I can, and besides, it's where the most has changed since the last update! There is still a lot more work to do to the chassis, and I've got to design a way of supporting the doors and roof. In terms of time, I've now stopped counting, but I think it's fair to say that this is going to take as long as a conventional scratchbuild of something like this, I'm just doing it in a slightly different way!
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#32 dave_long

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 21:52

That's impressive work Martin.
Atleast in 4mm there are some compromises I can get away with that perhaps you may not be able to, especially with sides and door fitting. I think once I've built my entry, I'm certainly going to take a serious look in to 3d work, (especially considering my Dads request for some 7mm stock!)

#33 Pugsley

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 18:46

Thanks Dave 8)

Whilst the wagon doesn't look substantially different, I've spent a fair bit of time today and yesterday working on the various fittings that adorn the chassis and ends. The suspension mounts were a real pain and I'm still not totally sure that I've captured them properly. The state of things now:

IZA_assembly8.jpg

Here's a close up of the suspension mounts, etc, if anyone has got any comments, or suggestions, about the shape of the mounts I'd like to hear them:

IZA_assembly9.jpg
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#34 BrushType4

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 19:46

Martin,

That looks pretty good. Will you be printing those as a part of the chassis or individually?

#35 new puritan

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 20:15

Martin

Looking really good sir. I wish I had your skills.

As drawn it looks like the four suspension pins are bolts retained by nuts.

They are actually a grooved pin into which a 'c' clip is inserted and this
is then secured by a split pin.

You can safely ignore the cone packing [the circular disc between the spring and bearing] unless
you really want to know its purpose [you don't need to go there ... honest] in my picture of a 710 ...
haven't yet found a decent picture here of a 668 suspension but am sure they are identical.

DSCF8783.JPG

Regards

Mark

Edited by new puritan, 07 May 2012 - 20:16 .

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#36 Pugsley

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 21:09

That looks pretty good. Will you be printing those as a part of the chassis or individually?

Thanks Phil, the various parts will be printed separately. The chassis is an etched part, with the ferry securing eye also being etched, fitting into a slot in the outer frame. The ferry anchor bracket will be a 3d print, with the anchor part being an etch that glues on the front. Again, the suspension mounts will be a separate print, but incorporating the double link part, although the will be printed and cast as a pair (they're attached behind the frame) to enable accurate location.

Looking really good sir. I wish I had your skills.

As drawn it looks like the four suspension pins are bolts retained by nuts.

They are actually a grooved pin into which a 'c' clip is inserted and this
is then secured by a split pin.

Thanks Mark 8) You've spotted my error, I've adapted the single link suspension parts I'd already drawn up, for another project, to double link for this project, without making all of the alterations I should have. I'll have to make sure I change it now that someone has noticed :D I'd also be interested in a brief explanation of the cone packing, if You've got the time, as I've developed an unhealthy fascination with this type of suspension.

Looking at your photo, I think I have got the suspension mounts close enough - what do you think?

#37 Western Star

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 21:19

I'd also be interested in a brief explanation of the cone packing,


Surely not a re-incarnation of the Issigonis rubber suspension for the original Mini?

#38 simon br blue

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 21:22

It looks great so far. I'm following this with interest as I've got a OCA chassis test on order at shapeways that should (if I've worked out the minimum gaps between the parts correctly) have working suspension.
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#39 Pugsley

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 21:23

Just to help the comparison of the suspension mounts, I've taken a snapshot of the model at a similar angle to the one that Mark posted above.

IZA_assembly10.jpg

Looking at this, and the prototype pic above, I think I'm happy with what I've got so far, so can crack on with some other parts.

#40 Pugsley

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 21:31

It looks great so far. I'm following this with interest as I've got a OCA chassis test on order at shapeways that should (if I've worked out the minimum gaps between the parts correctly) have working suspension.

Now that sounds really interesting! I hope you manage to put a bit up about that, it's something that I'd be very interested to see.

#41 simon br blue

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 22:01

It should be delivered this week. I've only gone for a part chassis test to see what it turns out like.

Posted Image

I have nearly finished drawing the basic wagon but i'm not sure which material to print it out off.

Posted Image
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#42 Pugsley

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 20:31

Cracking stuff there Simon!

This is the current state of play with the IZA:

IZA_assembly11.jpg

All the door gear supports and chassis strengthening parts have been designed, along with the requisite slots. The U channel on the sides is 2 x 2mm U channel, obtainable from Eileens in 250mm lengths, which is handy as there is 241mm needed for each side! It's really starting to look the part now, IMO, and each subsequent part that I'm designing and adding to the model adds that little bit more to it.

I've now gone pretty much as far as I can with the ends and underframe for the time being, so now have to move on to the doors. This is going to be interesting, as they'll be composed of a total of 3 or 4 layers each, with a combination of etched, and half etched, parts.

Wish me luck!

Edited by Pugsley, 13 May 2012 - 20:36 .

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#43 BrushType4

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 22:21

Good luck Martin, but I don't think you need it! It's certainly taking shape.

#44 Pugsley

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 21:27

Thanks Phil, as it happens it isn't proving as tricky as I thought it might have.

So far I've created the first layer, which will by half etched, but the CAD package won't display half cuts properly for some reason, the 2nd layer and parts of the 3rd layer. This is the result so far:

IZA_assembly13.jpg

There are still other bits to do on the chassis, but the doors are proving a welcome distraction. I also put it through the rendering package out of curiosity and it's come up quite well - assuming I havent made any massive errors, and all the parts fit together like they should, then it should build up into a reasonable rendition of the prototype.

IZA_assembly.27cp.jpg

Still loads to do though, and the 3D to 2D process could be interesting as it's something I've not done before.
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#45 new puritan

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 21:03

Martin

Your 'virtual' modelling is looking good so far sir.

Apologies for delay in replying sir but have been away chasing wagons.

The RAIB report into the Newcastle derailment will explain more clearly than I am likely to!

Paras 30 - 31 and 87 - 92 should give you an understanding of the uses for 'cone packing'.

http://www.raib.gov....eport022008.cfm

It is probably not a coincidence that frame twist check markings started appearing again soon after the above accident on MHAs which use a new body on an HAA family chassis. I have also noted MTAs being so marked recently.

mha396058 frame twist.JPG



The plate mentioned in para 90 seems to have fallen out of use many years ago and so pictures are pretty rare and this is one of them [different styles have been seen] ...

DSCF9386.JPG


Cheers

Mark

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#46 Pugsley

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Posted 23 May 2012 - 21:15

A quick update - this is how the virtual model is looking so far:

IZA_assembly.28.jpg

The doors are mostly complete, although I've revisited them at least twice now following a fairly fundamental error. Taking the dimensions from the spec sheet I have literally, I left a 300mm gap between the two sets of doors, in the middle of the wagon. However, after I'd done all of this, and worked out the various layers of the doors to get the right effect, I then looked at a photo and spotted something I'd done wrong. Although the centre support may be 300mm wide behind the doors, the visible part is about the same size as one of the narrower ribs on the doors, approx 80mm. D'oh!

It's taken longer to alter all of the parts than to create them in the first place, I think. Still, it's done now, so I can crack on with the roof, and the body sheetwork will be mostly complete, with only some small detail parts to create.
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#47 Pugsley

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 21:20

I've spent a few hours this afternoon trying to work the roof out. This is what I've got so far (also had a play with Keyshot to add some colour to the wagon), but I'm not sure I've captured it quite properly yet. Close, but no cigar, I think.

IZA_assembly.56.jpg

IZA_assembly.30.jpg

IZA_assembly.31.jpg

IZA_assembly.32.jpg

IZA_assembly.33.jpg

IZA_assembly.34.jpg

IZA_assembly16.jpg

I would welcome any comments, positive or otherwise about the roof section. I can't quite figure out what I don't currently like about it, but something's not quite right. On a positive note, I think I may have found someone who can do the castings for me in whitemetal, so I need to create the last few bits now before sending the files off for printing. All that's left to do is the door unlocking gear, brake cylinder and cranks and the air reservoir. I still need to amend the suspension links as well, haven't got round to that yet, as well as working out how I'm going to spring the wagons!

Having had a chat with Missy at Railex, and having seen the wheel centres that she's had printed in 'FUD', I think that this material may well be suitable for printing the various parts for casting, as there was very little evidence of layering and 'stepping'. I may get a few pieces made in that material to try, at least, before committing to the final solution.

Edit - Link to prototype photo here:
http://www.flickr.co...157603210839981
for comparison purposes.

Edited by Pugsley, 27 May 2012 - 21:27 .

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#48 lyneux

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 22:04

Wow, that looks stunning Martin!

On the prototype photo that you linked compared with the last draft render above, perhaps the raised roof centreline isn't quite high enough above the rest of the roof? Is this because the two sides of the roof are slightly too steeply pitched? Just a thought.

How are you finding the 3D to 2D sheet metal capabilites?

Fancy doing one in 4mm? :declare:

Edited by lyneux, 27 May 2012 - 22:08 .

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#49 Pugsley

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 11:49

Thanks Guy 8)

Yes, it looks like the pitch of the door tops is too steep, I'll have a look at that later.

I haven't got as far as the 2D to 3D bit yet - I wanted to make sure that everything was done correctly first. It'll be interesting to see how quickly I pick it up, and how user friendly it is - I'm hoping that it's really user friendly!

I'm not planning on a 4mm scale version at the moment, it would require a fair bit of work to scale it down, as it's been designed around 7mm scale and a certain metal thickness. Never say never, but don't hold your breath either! :D

#50 emdpowerrules

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 22:56

A couple of roof photos, think this is the version you are modelling. Got similar of the other variants, there seems to be three different designs plus the high roof version.

Graham

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Posted Image
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