John_Hughes Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Back in the days when the Festiniog (as it then was) was still a sleeping beauty and awaiting the Prince's kiss there were reports that nameplates had been stolen from some of the locos that had effectively been abandoned at Boston Lodge, and the Welsh-language press was quite certain that the 'villains from over the border' were behind it. I suspect in this case they were probably right, too! As a first-language Welshman whose roots on my father's side are a mixture of English and Huguenot, I always do feel very uncomfortable about this sort of 'b****r off home' mentality, whoever it's aimed at; I certainly found some of it in the fine city of Bristle when I was a student there, none of which stopped me falling in love with the place. But I feel even more uncomfortable with the loud-mouthed, arrogant visitors we sometimes get who seem to think that we've only just cast off our animal skins and need every encouragement to 'talk like a white man' - and yes, I have been told that not so very long ago. <rant mode> If you're a visitor in our place, please remember that that's exactly what you are - a visitor. We'll do our best to treat you with courtesy, try to make you comfortable, show you things we think you'll like. Please have the good manners not to respond by flashing your money at us, or making arrogant and ignorant comments about us when you think we aren't listening, or making a big joke of our place-names and language. And it might be a good idea not to assume that whenever we talk to one another we must be talking about you! </rant mode> Have a nice day! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted March 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 27, 2012 Mid & North Wales is one of my favourite areas for holidaying. This graffitti is very regrettable, but more than likely some local yobs disguising their basic yobbery into something they think is 'clever'... This is an area of distinctly limited employment - into which tourists come in their flashy cars and throwing money about. My Peugeot as some walnut trim, but is otherwise slightly tatty, and I certainly don't throw money about!... Yes, the tourist industry does create jobs - but they are what the unions would classify as "McDonalds jobs", with neither pensions nor prospects, and many are no doubt seasonal. Interestingly, when my Dad (indigenous Newport Valleys boy) and I stayed at the Royal Goat Hotel last October for a couple of nights, it was noticeable that there were one or two Eastern European accents mixed in there with the locals... I couldn't hear any fighting going on in the kitchens and the staff in the Breakfast Room all seemed positively harmonious! And how many of us love having the roads near our home invaded & clogged up in nice weather - by anyone, let alone "foreigners"? Fact of life here in Swagonia, matey! And I don't mind 'em coming down y'ere either, as long as they're not towing a caravan... If spending countless millions on promoting use of the Welsh language in all official documents & signs was supposed to buy peace, then Westminster got it very wrong. On another trip with my Dad to Cardiff, we wandered into the Welsh Assembly building after lunch, and got tickets to observe the proceedings on the Floor of the House below. Very impressive modern architecture and friendly staff, but what struck me was the cost of providing simultaneous translation services. It seemed that the Opposition members were speaking English, and the Government members replying in Welsh. The use of the Welsh language under those specific circumstances was clearly a political act, and one with it's attendant cost, as well. Of course, I wouldn't dream of commenting on whether this is a good use of my Uncle Alan's taxpayers money (he still lives in Risca...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Quote I wonder if we shouldn't keep this to railway related discussions rather than attract the attention of the Mods? Are they Welsh.....lol Not neccessarily; usually any race, wearing Parka jackets, riding motor scooters and listening to The Who Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 If you're a visitor in our place, please remember that that's exactly what you are - a visitor. I sense a a very large chip on shoulder by this comment. I am sure most of us have or had Welsh, Irish and Scots men as friends in England. They didnt feel it was odd crossing the border into England to get work and the English certainly didnt consider them as foreigners. Why would they?. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 See below ........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 27, 2012 I can quite understand the sentiment about 'visitors' and it applies equally here - and we are an international tourist spot for a little bit of every year - and in reality has nothing to do with nationality or language or anything else; if you are visiting someone else's home area don't forget that people live there and will still be there after you've gone. Apart from the occasional ones who leave their blood on the pavement, and many more who leave litter, we generally tolerate visitors provided they don't mess up our town on a permanent basis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Please have the good manners not to respond by flashing your money at us I know it is a generalism but still a fact of life to me. We seem to holiday in Scotland and Wales quite a bit (even occasionally across the water in Ireland). In Scotland and in Ireland the "locals" seem only too pleased to offer a friendly welcome and to do what they can to make our stay there a pleasant one. Eager to get us to part us from our money usually with a smile and a cheer. This is never more so than in a pub or restaurant. Why are the welsh so different? Outwardly they are typified by this statement. A sort of we don't want your money and we certainly do not welcome you. We have been to many parts of Wales and every time finding a welcoming pub is near impossible. If you do find a pub, the atmosphere almost goes cold as soon as you walk in and are not recognised as local. So why do we go back? Well the country has a great deal to offer other than its people, that and we have friends who can act as interpreters and swear back in the local language Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 This is not just an English/Welsh problem. . I tire of meeting English folk who tell me the old story .......... "I was on holiday in Wales (invariably North Wales) and went into a pub, and they all started speaking Welsh - so rude" . I always ask, "so you listened at the door first, and heard them speak English, and they changed mid-stream as you walked in ?" . Of course many overlook the fact that Welsh speakers use words and phrases from English that do not have a direct Welsh equivalent - and before people like Michael McIntyre start taking the 'p!ss' about "Ambiwlans" think about the number of English words you use everyday that are from Greek, Latin or French...... so it is quite possible to sometimes think the Welsh were speaking English and changed to Welsh mid-stream, because we do. Anyway - reverting to the English tourist(s) upset by the Welsh speaking their native tongue - I always ask..... . "Back home in Essex, when you call in at the corner shop to collect 'The Sun' each morning do you complain that Mr & Mrs Patel speak to each other in Gudjarati ? or that when you go for your weekly curry the waiters speak Bengali to each other, and when buying a kebab does it bother you the staff all speak Kurdish and that the cleaners in your office block all speak Polish ? ....... and they are all visitors to YOUR country" . Anyway ..... if the English think they get it badly from the fundamentalist 'Gogs' when they go to North Wales, try visiting as a South Walian ! . I recall the times of Trewryn, 'Meibion Glyndwr' and other protest movements; and can recall certain rural Welsh folk bemoaning the fact the English were buying up what they perceived as large swathes of the countryside, but were generally run-down coastal cottages for holiday homes. So some (not many) fell victim to spontaneous combustion, and were then unfit for habitation by both English and Welsh. Yet, I visit Spain regularly, and when the Brits started buying on the Costas, the locals rubbed their hands with glee and considered it a business opportunity - not a means to feel disenfranchised. Unfortunately during my working life in Cardiff, most of my 'customers' could string two words together in English, let along Welsh. I may no longer be as fluent in my mother tongue (but my grandsons will be helping "tadcu" to 'siarad Cymraeg') but this kind of behaviour does make my blood boil, and is not helped by the quality of some reports in the media. . Brian R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 This is not just an English/Welsh problem. . I tire of meeting English folk who tell me the old story .......... "I was on holiday in Wales (invariably North Wales) and went into a pub, and they all started speaking Welsh - so rude" . So if these same people went to, say, Spain and the people in the pub were talking Spanish they would be rude, whether the visitors like it or not Wales is a Country in its own right with its own language, the mere fact that Wales is part of the United Kingdom does not mean that everyone has to speak English. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I was taught this at a very young age. http://www.rhymes.org.uk/a79-taffy-was-a-welshman.htm Do they still recite this in English pre school groups in these PC days? Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I was taught this at a very young age. http://www.rhymes.org.uk/a79-taffy-was-a-welshman.htm Do they still recite this in English pre school groups in these PC days? I couldn't hear this ..... because Offa's Dyke was in the way, keeping the unruly Welsh out ! Brian R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hughes Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I was taught this at a very young age. http://www.rhymes.or...-a-welshman.htm Do they still recite this in English pre school groups in these PC days? Bernard Actually, of course,a 'Taff' - despite the false etymology in the link - is a person from the Taff Vale, near Cardiff; a nice little bit of made-up history there. The fact is that the Welsh frequently were regarded as rather light-fingered; just part of the historical racist abuse that we can mostly now smile at. It would be as silly to get offended by it as to be bothered by golliwogs, or the story of Little Black Sambo, or any other historical stuff like that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidR Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 In the late 70's the family and I had many enjoyable holidays on the Llyn Peninsula, the locals were patient with me trying out my primitive Welsh, in shops, and courteously corrected me. There were the usual anti- English slogans painted here and there, but one message on an overbridge made me laugh: 'Free Wales' (it said).Underneath some wag had daubed 'With every 4 gallons'! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hughes Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I sense a a very large chip on shoulder by this comment. I am sure most of us have or had Welsh, Irish and Scots men as friends in England. They didnt feel it was odd crossing the border into England to get work and the English certainly didnt consider them as foreigners. Why would they?. A large chip on my shoulder? Well, not really I don't think. I just think people should be courteous when visiting other folks' places; I certainly try to be. Try sounding out some Canadian opinion on some - not all by any means - of the visitors there from south of the border, with the frequent jokes about Funny Money, the apparently bizarre occurrence of French in all sorts of places where you might not expect it, and the amazing reluctance to let people bring their loaded handguns into the place! When in Rome.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 A large chip on my shoulder? Well, not really I don't think. I just think people should be courteous when visiting other folks' places; I certainly try to be. Try sounding out some Canadian opinion on some - not all by any means - of the visitors there from south of the border, with the frequent jokes about Funny Money, the apparently bizarre occurrence of French in all sorts of places where you might not expect it, and the amazing reluctance to let people bring their loaded handguns into the place! When in Rome.... Canada has a very similar situation with Quebec. Most of the English/Welsh comments above are also applicable to parts of Quebec (although notably not Montreal, the Eastern Townships, or the Gaspe). As for the visitors from the south, the comments about funny money are less prevalent now that our money is worth more than theirs and they have started colouring their money... They may start ap again when our plastic bills become more prevalent, though. I do recall that, when I was going to school in Bangor, the student body was split with those who spoke Welsh at home being educated primarily in Welsh, while those who didn't were educated primarily in English. Is this still the case? Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 A large chip on my shoulder? Well, not really I don't think. I just think people should be courteous when visiting other folks' places; I certainly try to be. When in Rome.... Agreed... even to the extent of learning a couple of the words of the local language or dialect... it works wonders... an open view to cultural differences helps as well - you don't have to agree with it but having an understanding of 'why' makes a huge difference - I see this all the time... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 What about all the French Canadians who vacation each year on the Jersey Shore? They have their own French speaking Hotels down there (at Cape May). You'll never hear complaints about those arrogant SOB's from the Americans . Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebottle Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 They must have VERY simplistic minds; to imagine that any modern-country can exist in a state of fiscal, mental and physical insularity...but I guess that such ignorant-racism can come from any corner of the closed mind! I've just read through this thread, wondering whether to offer my opinion on the subject of cultural differences and prejudices. Then I went back to Debs's initial reply to the original story and decided that that summed it up nicely. The rest is mere elaboration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 When in Rome.... You speak Italian. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I've just read through this thread, wondering whether to offer my opinion on the subject of cultural differences and prejudices. Then I went back to Debs's initial reply to the original story and decided that that summed it up nicely. The rest is mere elaboration. Well, you've managed to belittle everyone else bar Dabs who has responded to this nonsense - which was discrimination of some kind. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 I still do not see language as the main issue here, it is the way it is used as some sort of political weapon. You see it in some other countries that have ingrained insecurities. To give slightly wider examples: I have a very poor smattering of both the German and French language and always attempt to speak something of their home language when visiting. Yet the difference in attitudes between the response is remarkable. In both cases, and with every country I visit, I always feel ashamed at not being able to at least basically converse in their language. The difference comes in the way that attempt is received. In Germany, and the majority of nations from China, Japan, India, Afghanistan ... any small attempt is welcomed and then encouraged before they then proudly announce that they can speak English. In France, most notably, the attitude is more of do better or we will just ignore you. English is probably the second most widely spoken language. It is perhaps then of no surprise that it should continue to be used as a common point of communication. Welsh is a minority language and while I would support it being preserved as much as any local dialect I see no reason why it should be promoted in exclusion of wider communication. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 27, 2012 I still do not see language as the main issue here, it is the way it is used as some sort of political weapon. You see it in some other countries that have ingrained insecurities. In France, most notably, the attitude is more of do better or we will just ignore you. Which makes it very much like the English when many most people in our country are faced with foreign visitors trying to speak our language. In my experience France isn't always the way you describe it although they do share the English trait of much preferring to use the home language when speaking to foreigners (and I suppose it is not unnatural that native Welsh speakers should do exactly the same especially in parts of the middle & north of teh country where Welsh is the everyday language for many people. But never forget one thing about Wales - if you think some of them (and it is a small minority in my experience) dislike the English that is as nothing compared with the dislike some harbour for those from the opposite end of what we non-Welsh might think of as one country. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted March 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 27, 2012 its a funny old place north west wales, when i used to deliver things to octel in amlwch some of the workers there would delibratly speak welsh so i couldn't understand what they were saying as i "had a scouse accent", thing is to them i sounded english as i lived in deeside at the time, however im actually welsh, lived in wales all my life, went to welsh school, my first language used to be welsh in fact and my dad is welsh, soon shut them up when you joined in the conversation!! the english out thing seemed to be prevelent more back in the early 90s, whether its just me living in wales back then and and noticing it more i dont know but it seems to have died back a bit in recent years, the big thing back when i was in school was the star of s4c tv program "c'mon midffield" Bryn fon being in court for allegedly being a member of meibion glyndwr and commiting arson sor something, that to me seemed to bring the problem to the national media's attention i've lived in wales all my life and only moved to england 5 years ago, very proud to be welsh and be able to speak it and my youngest has a welsh name but i cant see myself ever moving back there, cant afford 5p for carrier bags!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hughes Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (heavily snipped) Welsh is a minority language and while I would support it being preserved as much as any local dialect I see no reason why it should be promoted in exclusion of wider communication. We are in serious danger of the Mods locking this thread, which has wandered far from its starting point. You can preserve railways - a lot of people do, and thank goodness for them! You can preserve fruit - my wife makes an awful lot of jam in the late summer! I don't think you can preserve a language as though it were some static thing that could be kept in amber or a glass case. It's owned by the people who speak it - which, contrary to the view of a lot of people, is not done merely out of a desire to be awkward, or historic, or whatever, but simply because it's the way they run their lives in the place where their families have done for generations past. And I do feel that describing a language that has survived in a recognisable form for the last fifteen hundred years as a 'local dialect' is a bit off-colour! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted March 27, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 27, 2012 This thread started off as a means of announcing some unwelcome vandalism on a popular narrow gauge railway. Unfortunately the political angle seems to have started to dominate the discussions, summed up perhaps as 'how valid is Welsh as an everyday language' or some such.. I agree with John that the Mods may lock the thread, best to avoid that if we can? I would be interested to know (without knowing the specifics) whether the SMR management are planning any anti-vandalism measures, and whether this phenomenon has afflicted other railways in the area, or tourist attractions etc.? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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