Are Hornby interested in Modern Image?

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....In the case of loco's the 08, 31, 50, 60, 153 and HST are all new releases which have been welcomed with little complaint.......

 

Were all new releases.

As welcome as they were, most of those came out half a decade or more ago and the most recent, 2 or 3 years ago.

 

It's the lack of new product in the last few years that has been the subject of concern for some.

 

 

.

[Joseph_Pestell]

When I first started taking an interest in railway modelling (nearly 50 years ago), pre-group layouts were very rare. And yet that era was less than 50 years past.

 

Now many of us model transition era (50 years past) and "blue era" is generally considered "modern image" even though it is 40 years old! I think the term "modern image" was invented (in the railway modelling context) by C J Freezer in the late 1960s and shows how great his influence was back then and is still felt now.

[definate maybe]

Were all new releases.

As welcome as they were, most of those came out half a decade or more ago and the most recent, 2 or 3 years ago.

 

It's the lack of new product in the last few years that has been the subject of concern for some.

 

 

.

 

Hi, time flies - I honestly didnt feel it was that long ago but they are still managing what equates to roughly a new 'motorised' modern imagine item each year whether that is a loco, dmu or emu. Not prolific I admit but hardly ignoring the scene either.

You could also argue the case that no manufacture has been prolific for standard release modern image items over the last few years. A lot of the releases have been at a shops request.

[RF900]

I feel that Hornby has no strategy as far as Modern Image is concerned, when a loco of a certain livery is produced the coaches aren't available to go with it for several years. Also what makes Hornby choose a certain livery for a certain loco, is it just because it looks nice, I give you the example of the Class 73 in Gatwick Livery, not much good without suitable coaches is it? I was really looking forward to the Class 50 coming out in original NSE livery and what did they do, muck it up, so I didn't buy it. I have a great deal of tastes as far as D&E is concerned from 1960s to present day and most liveries, I have 274 locos in my collection some used on my layout and the rest used at various times on a club layout and the number I purchase from Hornby each year dwindles. I would like to replace my whole collection of Class 110s for example with more detailed versions, with lights, DCC control etc etc but until Hornby do something it won't happen. I'm not minded to do any detailing work myself on locos etc, I prefer to work on the layout.

[coachmann]

I'm afraid it is the same old cry from 'Modern Image/D&E collectors.... "We've had such & such a loco for two years now so why hasnt Hornby revamped it". Okay, so I accept that you guys are the bread n' butter of Hornby...You must be with over 200 locos! But there is a bigger world out there that is still waiting for things that have never been produced EVER. Bachmann has risen to the challenge and presumably they have found it actually pays as well, and it hasn't taken Hornby long to pitch in and grab a slice of this market for itself.

 

So if D&E collectors feel short-changed, tough. Its your own fault for bragging that you dont wish to renumber models or do anything other than open boxes. Because if you did 'move on', as they say, you will probably find your local model shop is stocked to the gills with modern image that they cannot sell. Buy some of it and do a spot of painting and applying transfers. It's called railway modelling. You might enjoy it! Good luck...

[APOLLO]

When I wuz a lad with my Tri-ang TT train set we had a Jinty, Diesel Shunter, Brush type 2, Brittania, Spam Can, Castle, DMU, Prarie Tank, couple of continental steamers, about 6 styles of coach in 3 liverys, and a dozen or so wagons. Same liverys & numbers year on year.

 

Simple back then.

 

We all have it "made" today, and we still bicker.

 

5 - 10 years hence, I think things will be a tad different. What comes around goes around.

 

Brit15

[Guest Max Stafford]

There have been no new-build Locos on the full size railway since the Burkhardt era GMs with the exception of the class 70. Perhaps with this in mind, the manufacturers see better hunting grounds, such as pre-group goods engines and secondary service rolling stock.

 

That, perhaps is where we find ourselves today and of course if other manufacturers are seeing it the same way then who's to blame Hornby who have more pressing priorities at the moment?

 

Dave.

 

 

[definate maybe]

Coachmann, Agree with everything you say except that its not purely D&E modellers that have this wish. I think its covers people who are interested in any era or gauge.

[Karhedron]

So what class (loco or DMU or EMU) would the OP suggest that Hornby produce? And if it duplicates another manufacturer's offering, what would be the wow factor that made enough people buy the Hornby one as well?

Bachmann seem to be doing very well by realeasing a steady trickle of models based on the 57' DMU chassis. A logical step by Hornby could be to take a similar approach in tackling 64' prototypes. As well as suburban types like the 117, it also gives the 121/122 bubble and the widely travelled Swindon cross-country 120.

 

Perhaps there is a chance Dapol will do these if their forthcoming 00 ventures go well.

[Glorious NSE]

There have been no new-build Locos on the full size railway since the Burkhardt era GMs with the exception of the class 70. Perhaps with this in mind, the manufacturers see better hunting grounds, such as pre-group goods engines and secondary service rolling stock.

 

I don't think anyone here is complaining about a lack of post 1998 designed loco's though, which is a niche where we are pretty well served. If you look closely the OPs examples to illustrate his point are prototypes dating from the 1950s and 1960s....

[Accurascale Fran]

I don't understand why people care so much. I prefer Bachmann's products anyway, especially when it comes to modern freight stock. They cater for us diesel and electric modellers much better than Hornby do, so they get more of my money. At the end if the day they get my business and Hornby miss out. Their loss.

[Guest Max Stafford]

I don't think anyone here is complaining about a lack of post 1998 designed loco's though, which is a niche where we are pretty well served. If you look closely the OPs examples to illustrate his point are prototypes dating from the 1950s and 1960s....

 

Point taken Martyn, but when you see the prodigious output of D&E equipment from Heljan, Bachmann and now in a pretty spectacular way Dapol, one can hardly describe this growing torrent as a 'lack'. Perhaps Hornby, seeing all these developments have decided that there are already sufficient players in the field and want to concentrate elsewhere.

Whilst there are individual classes like the 25s and 86-91 that could be better represented, I feel that this will come.

Whether they come from Hornby is another matter, but it's not something anybody should be losing sleep about.

 

Dave.

[jonathan452]

To add my little contribution to this thread (without duplicating what has been mentioned already).

 

Even if Hornby do not completely re-tool their older and ex Lima 'modern image' models they seemingly ignore the oppurtunitiy to upgrade them to what has been described as a 'mid-fi' specification, other than say re-motoring.

 

Also as I mentioned (on the 'Pretendolino' thread last year) having produced a new scale (albeit non working) pantograph for the ex LIma Class 87 they ommited to use it for the latest Class 90 releases, continuing with the former 'crude' version.

 

And conversely (as pointed out by Jim SW) when the ex Lima Class 87 was re-released they didn't take the oppurtunity to replace the underscale (lengthwise) bogies with their own Class 90 ones.

 

I am waiting to see if any upgrades are made to the Class 91/Mk4+DVT coaches other than re-motoring when the 'Flying Scotsman' train pack is released later this year.

 

e.g. flush Glazing, coach mounted end fairings with a 'Pendolino' type coupling system, working lights, 'Mallard Refurbishment' modifications, scale pantograph on the Class 91, correct interior unit for the catering vehicle.

 

Somehow I think I'm in for a dissapointment.

[RF900]

I'm afraid it is the same old cry from 'Modern Image/D&E collectors.... "We've had such & such a loco for two years now so why hasnt Hornby revamped it".

 

I don't remember saying anything of the sort.............all the models I mentioned that need upgrading to full specification (not just a new motor with dcc socklet!) are many years old, the Class 110 dates from 1981, the Class 86 from 1982. If Hornby cannot see that their share of the D&E market will reduce if they do not add new locos/mu's to the range then so be it, yes it will be their loss.

[coachmann]

You're right and you didn't.........I was generalising going off many previous threads on the D&E subject. But it seems to me that if Hornby have let folk down for so long, why would you want them to produce anything for you now? Why not support the company that supports you? I thought Bachmanns diesels were smashing models when I was painting D&E locos for various 'Rail' projects leading up to privatisation. In fact it was only last week that I found and binned a Hornby Class 37 while sorting out the garage. What a wooden spoon....

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Just my view and I might be totally wrong, but I feel that Hornby has lost its way a little.

It appears to be trying to please too many different and disparate markets, and not entirely succeeding with any of them.

 

They appear to be rehashing models well past their prime. With totally new designs there appears to be often poor market research, poor product design and/or poor quality control.

 

Please don't think I'm knocking Hornby just for the sake of it, but this thread is about that company - hence my thoughts.

 

With Bachmann and Heljan, I detect a certain strategy. With Hornby I don't.

 

 

[Legend]

I'm sorry but I think Hornby are totally confused and lacking direction because of the large market they supposedly serve.

 

Bachmann, Dapol, Heljan know they are in the enthusiast marketand tailor their products specifically for that market ,mostly succesfully.

 

Hornby on the other hand make for trainsets, enthusiasts, collectors. They seem to be more closely monitored by accountants, so things get made to a price point or cost more. As a result you get the vast range of models of varying ages and quality usually charged at the highest price they think the market can afford. Its a Jeckyl and Hyde existance so you get superb models such as the aforementioned Class 43 and some dubious ones like the 4 VEP, a mainstream model commanding mainstream price but with sub standard running qualities.

 

Its noticeable that aside from coaches (clearly they perceive they can make high margins here) Hornby do not feature in any categories in the Model of The year award, and I think it was much the same last year. This must be worrying for them and surely tells them a change of direction is necessary. How many pullmans are there- surely can't be many more to model!

 

So while they do tend to cater for the important steam market I think they need to partially refocus on Diesels and Electrics or they will be increasingly marginalised and eventually out of the mainstream.

[Pennine MC]

Why they thought a Brighton Belle could be considered modern image I do not know, yes it is electric, but there weren't that many of them, they ran on a restricted area and were not in many liveries.

 

Have they actually said that they do consider it modern image? I dont think they look on it like that. They know that Pullmans make money for them, they know the Belle is an iconic train that will sell at a premium, and that's it. I dont think they see it as part of a modern image strategy.

 

...If Hornby cannot see that their share of the D&E market will reduce if they do not add new locos/mu's to the range then so be it, yes it will be their loss.

 

You say that, but will it? Maybe (and I stress I'm only hypothesising, with a dose of Devil's advocate thrown in), they see the pickings as being better in other market sectors. Too many debates like this are predicated on the view that Hornby are somehow obliged to have a presence in this sector - they're not, any more than Hotpoint are obliged to make washing machines if they feel it's not right for then any more.

 

As for the posts debating the meaning of 'modern image', a discussion which never, ever goes anywhere useful, could I ever so gently point out that they dont ease the path of the main debate here.

[Ravenser]

With totally new designs there appears to be often poor market research, poor product design and/or poor quality control.

 

 

 

The only newly tooled Hornby model in recent years which has thrown up significant problems has been the 4-VEP ."Often"seems misplaced here, and I'm not sure I see any signs of poor market research - other than those postings saying "Hornby are getting it all wrong - they haven't tooled up my wishlist this year" . While I thought the Brighton Belle was a serious commercial risk they seem to be selling, the Maunsells seem to have hit the spot and there's no sign of anything wrong with the Gresley Suburbans , Hawkesworths - or for that matter the L1 , B1 or the railroad Tornado

 

And it can be argued that the Brighton Belle is a riposte to Bachmann's Blue Pullman - while continuing Hornby's own Southern 3rd rail/ Maunsell / Pullman themes . It's about as much a part of a "modern image strategy" as Ivatt Co-Co diesels or City of Truro - it's in the premium glamour exotic collectable niche (though I admit that City of Truro covered more of the network over a longer period)

[Ravenser]

I had written off Hornby in the 2nd generation DMU stakes - until they suddenly did an excellent 153. I wouldn't be surprised if they turn out to be the people who give us a 120 and a 116 - about 2 years after we've convinced ourselves they've written off first generation DMUs

[DaveF]

 

Hornby on the other hand make for trainsets, enthusiasts, collectors.

 

 

I realise this is a very selective quote from Legends post but I think it sums up Hornby's position in the market very well.

 

I am sure that some new entrants to the hobby build model railways as they get older because their Dad did and they picked up the hobby from him (or other family relative). For others they will develop an interest in modelmaking as they get older and enter the hobby in their "more mature" years.

 

Many people may have memories of a train set when they were younger and either follow the hobby all their life or have fond memories from childhood and regain an interest. At the moment only Hornby cater for the "train set/young person" market, if they move to cater only for serious modellers I suspect that years to come the hobby might die because how will young people develop an interest unless they are able to follow in the footsteps of a family member.

 

Hence, in my view, the need for a wide range of price points, and hence level of detail and prototype fidelity to cater for the different parts of the market. It would be like manufacturers only producing the top specification version of a car, pricing many customers out of the market.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

This thread is basically about "modern image", right?

 

Where I was commenting on lack of market research and strategy let me give an example.

 

In the present (online) catalogue there's a green Cl.33 and Cl.42 in the range. There's no indication what type of vehicles these might haul. The catalogue only lists three Mk1 coaches - a green BSK (fine for the Cl.33 and possibly the Cl.42 on Waterloo workings), a choc & cream RMB for the Cl.42 and a crimson & cream BG not really suitable for either. Where's the strategy in this? Good market research would surely have identified some need for coherency in liveries/coach types for someone to actually be able to assemble a train to run behind these locos from the product range.

[Pennine MC]

... - it's in the premium glamour exotic collectable niche ...

 

Yeah, that's the phrase I was looking for. It was on the tip of my tongue, honest

[lapford34102]

Its noticeable that aside from coaches (clearly they perceive they can make high margins here) Hornby do not feature in any categories in the Model of The year award, and I think it was much the same last year. This must be worrying for them

 

I'm compelled to ask the question - Why ?

 

Stu

[wombatofludham]

For what it's worth, my grossly generalised view of the main RTR players at present is Hornby are possibly more biased at the moment towards steam after a reasonable rush of D&E models, something which might change in the next year or two, Heljan are busy creating a market for freak diesel one-offs and less successful prototypes which possibly makes more sense if they have a higher cost base, Bachmann appear to have alternate years favouring either steam or D&E but overall their range seems to satisfy D&E models better than Hornby, and Dapol are a stalking horse. Realtrack also have the potential to deliver in the long term being focussed entirely on pretty contemporary D (no E yet as Charlie keeps saying although I'm sure we will break his willpower someday...). I don't think it's entirely fair to say Hornby have abandoned, or neglected D&E, it's just a combination of a current focus, probably market led, on steam, and an understandable frustration that they so far have not turned out modern-standard replacements to some of the ageing mouldings in their range, particularly the widespread Mk2 air conditioned coach and the Mk3 to match their exquisite HST power cars. To see every Big 4 company get one range of high-detail coaches, more Pullmans than possibly the Company ever had in stock, and then the LNER to get not just one, but two sets of non-corridor coaching stock whilst the venerable Airfix Mk2 which was new and exciting when I was at secondary school (and I'm 49 now) is, apart from kit building, the only option to run behind the lovely Class 50, is understandably going to give D&E modellers the impression that Hornby have taken their eye of the ball.

 

For my part, I can actually live with some of the venerable mouldings such as the 87 and 90 for now, or the Mk2d. I know their faults. But I also know that as I run them past my eyeline in the future on my shiny new shed layout at a scale 100mph, I won't notice too much if they lack sprung buffers, a door that opens or a working cab hob for the driver's billy can, or any of the other details that are being added to models which frankly don't add anything but expense. I'll turn a Nelson to the underscale bogies on the 87 for now until I can experiment with a 90 underframe to see what difference that does. I will carve off the un-necessary jumper boxes on post TDM examples, but otherwise, so long as it looks OK at speed, it'll do for now. Similarly the 90, a bit of weathering and it should look fine for now. If, or more likely when as I think Bachmann are about to bring AC modelling out of the cold as they did with 3rd rail modelling, the 87 and 90 get new super-detail models, I'll replace them then. In the meantime, I'll make do.

 

Perhaps it's because I'm more of an "impressionist" modeller than a Dutch Old Master modeller, so for me it's about creating a broad "moving watercolour" of trains in a landscape than warts and all masterpiece portraiture, not that either approach should be derided or seen as inferior or superior to the other.