Are Hornby interested in Modern Image?

[coachmann]

I tend to think in terms of coaches, and with this in mind, I have yet to see a proprietory manufacturer produce convincing flush sided coaches. None of the Colletts, Staniers, Hawksworths and BR built coaches cut it. It's an area that should be looked into as the lozenge window idea is as long in the tooth as Kitmaster.

['CHARD]

I tend to think in terms of coaches...

 

All's well in my world

[Godfrey Glyn]

I don't think it's a case of Hornby not interested in modern image, I think it's more a case of "what can we do that can sell, and can we put it into a train pack with anything else to double up on sales". In short, will it sell, and how can it be utilized more effectively.

 

Absolutely agree. Like any sensible business, Hornby will invest their time, expertise and resources where they think it will produce the best return for them. Sometimes they will, like all of us, get it wrong. Without access to confidential financial information it is impossible for the buyer/modeller to judge whether they do make the right business decisions. Do we really have a grasp of what sells and what does not? One very experienced model shop owner is always telling me that whilst modern outline sells well on first release, sales then slide away. Hornby have obviously invested a great deal in the production of high quality coaches, it must, one assumes be working for them. I, as a buyer, am delighted that they are. I'm looking forward to the extension of the Maunsell types. I, like many others on here get frustrated when they get things wrong or with my perspective chose not to produce what I want. Given the present recession, and its obviously going to get worse on the high street, I wouldn't like to have to make such decisions! I don't think we can expect even the big boys to produce everything. That Dapol have identified a niche market and are going for it is good news for us the buyer.

Godfrey

[Pennine MC]

...Judging by what has shot up in this thread as examples of their lack of interest in this market they have a very broad church to attempt to serve perhaps, with livery variations, one which is much more complicated than trying to reach the modeller of the steam world (for which they are now producing some admirable models where the applause is usually drowning the 'it's not what I want/need' moans).

 

Part of their 'not getting it right for modern image' seems to be about liveries while the steam era modellers simply get out the paint brush and transfers and say 'thank goodness for a decent 28XX' etc. And getting saleable livery and numbering for, say, diesels can be a minefield when trying to hit a40-50 year period for some classes.

 

Again spot on IMO, ties in with a comment I must have made maybe as long ago as when this forum first started. I'd tried to float the idea that manufacturers would have greater and greater difficulty in pulling together some sense out of the detail and livery variations for venerable classes like 31/37/47; with liveries the way they are for units, it's probably even more fraught. Without intending to have a poke, I do feel that 'modern' modellers can be pretty shortsighted and not see the overview, convinced that their chosen TOC or whatever represents a golden opportunity; to try and be even-handed about it though, taking on a repaint of a post-privatisation MU is something that few would relish.

[definate maybe]

This thread is basically about "modern image", right?

 

Where I was commenting on lack of market research and strategy let me give an example.

 

In the present (online) catalogue there's a green Cl.33 and Cl.42 in the range. There's no indication what type of vehicles these might haul. The catalogue only lists three Mk1 coaches - a green BSK (fine for the Cl.33 and possibly the Cl.42 on Waterloo workings), a choc & cream RMB for the Cl.42 and a crimson & cream BG not really suitable for either. Where's the strategy in this? Good market research would surely have identified some need for coherency in liveries/coach types for someone to actually be able to assemble a train to run behind these locos from the product range.

 

But that isnt an issue that can be aimed soley at Hornby

The argument could be aimed at Vitrains and Heljan who have, as yet produced next to nothing in terms of rolling stock. We have recently seen the first release of a rtr nuclear flask but locos have been released in DRS liveries every since the company came into being. The same can be said of WCRC 33, 37, 47 and 57 locos which still (AFAIK) has no authentic stock.

Bachmann has released MK1's in Regional Railways livery and MK2's yet never Mk2s in this livery but released scottish 37/4.'s AFAIK they RR never had anything other than Mk2's in scotland so again a gap and an argument of lack of joined up thinking.

Until recently we had no seen RTR TPO's but the locos have again been around for years and in N gauge the gaps are magnified 100%

I imagine you could aim criticism at every single company if you want to analysis it truly but we are not restricted to only buying exclusively from 1 company. We can mix and match. I know you dont mean it as such but your initial statement could be read as each manufacturor should release their own Mk1, Mk2, MK3, 16 ton coal wagon, standard brake etc etc to ensure their loco's have correct rolling stock. Why duplicate everything when you can continue releasing 'gaps' in the market such as the work they are doing in LNER suburban stock.

[Roy P]

So what do they do? It's far easier to say what a specific modeller wants than to identify a mass market area especailly when it is one full of considerable variety of livery and detail changes. It is far easier, I suspect, for Bachmann - let alone a commissioner - to identify a clear market area and make something for it which suits an identifiable 'modeller' market than for Hornby to reach across a range of markets and options and try to satisfy all of them at once. I really don't know what the answer is but I think the problem for Hornby is a lot greater and more complicated than many are prepared to credit.

I totally agree with this concept, however I also see a point in that the perceived difference in Hornby's market place when compared to the other players is and will continue to be of Hornby's own making. That is to say if there is actually any mass market left in this hobby, then Hornby are perhaps the only company able to exploit it to any great extent. It is my belief that Hornby are in a position to dictate the market to some degree but they have, in most part, followed Bachmann's lead for many years.

Their apparent position with regard to modern image/contemporary scene is a good indicator. Bachmann are currently making the DMU market their own. Hornby of course have a dilemma highlighted more by their modern stuff than the steam era product. The mass market potential of such as the Pendolino or Javelin will seen in the light of a product made down to a price and not one for the "enthusiast". This suggests that hi-fi (where did that phrase come from?) and mass market are mutually exclusive but that is fairly obvious. What Bachmann may see as a good seller is probably not what may be deemed mass market.

I recall a conversation I had with an exhibitor at the Warley NEC over ten years ago. One topic we touched on was the available products from the r-t-r boys. It was suggested to me then that they appear to cater more for the collector than the serious modeller. I asked "when did the serious modeller start caring what Hornby did?". Maybe this is the position we are now (still?) in. If Hornby make a product that receives critical acclaim then it was demonstrably intended for enthusiasts. If it doesn't, then it must have been intended for another market.

This means that if one is an enthusiast then some of Hornby's products are not meant for you. If Bachmann (and the others) are not in anything other than the enthusiasts market then most if not all of their product will be scrutinised as such and the product concept must start from this base.

The Hornby 4-VEP saga was a very interesting case. One can see that Hornby felt a need to follow where Bachmann had boldly gone before, but (and one may judge by the chosen prototype) they saw a market for a product aimed at, shall we say the less mature sector. There lies the danger! If one perceives the modern image sector as one and the same as that occupied by the Eurostar models and such then the enthusiasts are not going to be pleased. If only the enthusiasts are catered for then any mass market (The Hornby market) may be lost or destroyed. It seems to me that during the 4-VEPs conception Hornby simply didn't remember which hat they were wearing.

The way they have created the Tornado model is intriguing. Perhaps this the way forward for Hornby. Design a model that can be made for both markets. One for the train set and one for the connoisseur and create an additional revenue stream from those who have the time and skill to transform the former into the latter. I have often thought that the market has been driven over the years by the content of the Hornby (or Tri-ang) catalogues. I'm sure a fair few recent hi-fi models are sold due to a fondness for the old toy versions.

If there is an untapped revenue stream then I would suggest looking at the range of product offered by a company such as Kato (a British version?). Those "in-the-know" will understand what I'm getting at. It could redefine what the Hornby range is all about without losing their core market and possibly avoid alienating the enthusiast/modeller sector (Collectors will continue to be frusrated!) But has Hornby ever really been that bold?

There is a theme currently in other threads that suggests preferred suppliers for given prototypes. Bachmann seems to be favourite at this moment. Maybe we are in a position similar to that of many years ago in that the serious modeller/enthusiast/connoisseur will do their own thing and if something useful comes along from Hornby then it's a bonus. It's just that the bar has been raised and let it be said, Hornby have played their part it raising it.

RP

[Ozexpatriate]

The way they have created the Tornado model is intriguing. Perhaps this the way forward for Hornby. Design a model that can be made for both markets. One for the train set and one for the connoisseur and create an additional revenue stream from those who have the time and skill to transform the former into the latter.

I understood that they did precisely this with the Blue Rapier and London 2012 train sets (which I thought had black windows hiding a lack of interior details) versus other 395 models such as the Sir Steve Redgrave train pack. I hope these conform to the "modern image" definition. Curiously they have dropped the asking price on the more expensive model.

 

I don't have any of these so I'm not sure if what I said here was accurate.

[Ozexpatriate]

If there is an untapped revenue stream then I would suggest looking at the range of product offered by a company such as Kato (a British version?). Those "in-the-know" will understand what I'm getting at. It could redefine what the Hornby range is all about without losing their core market and possibly avoid alienating the enthusiast/modeller sector (Collectors will continue to be frusrated!) But has Hornby ever really been that bold?

Clearly I'm not "in-the-know".

 

Unless you are talking about Kato's models for the Japanese market, mostly in N and heavily featuring many variants of Shinkansen, I'm not sure just what you mean. (Does anyone know if Kato models the Shinkansen and 3'6" gauge items with different gauges? I assume it's all 9mm.)

 

Kato USA makes very nice H0 Amtrak Superliner stock. They have some very nice N scale "named trains" including the SP Morning Daylight, but I guess that's not "modern image".

[Ron Ron Ron]

I understood that they did precisely this with the Blue Rapier and London 2012 train sets (which I thought had black windows hiding a lack of interior details) versus other 395 models such as the Sir Steve Redgrave train pack. I hope these conform to the "modern image" definition. Curiously they have dropped the asking price on the more expensive model.

 

I don't have any of these so I'm not sure if what I said here was accurate.

 

This a curious one as neither is "hi-fi" or super detailed.

The ones with the blacked out windows, less detail, different motor PCB etc, are sub-RailRoad toy shop level...

...where as the better version is not much more than RailRoad standard and similar to their train-set level Pendolino.

 

.

[Roy P]

Oz, you are clearly in the know!

 

I think what I was trying to get at was my perception (right or wrong) that the Kato range for the Japanese market is every bit as comprehensive as Hornby's is for British outline but appears to be more focussed. Looking at it in the cold light of day rather than in the midst of a late night ramble, maybe that's the point. Has the Hornby catalogue become too unwieldy. Is it time for some spring cleaning?. Hornby can't please all of the people all of the time so to what extent should they try? By redefining their position in the market they may in turn (and in time) redefine a broad section of the hobby. The original question was " Are Hornby interested in Modern Image?". The answer comes hand in hand with the modern image of mainstream railway modelling.

 

RP

[Ozexpatriate]

Has the Hornby catalogue become too unwieldy. Is it time for some spring cleaning?. Hornby can't please all of the people all of the time so to what extent should they try?

We had a lot of discussion about Hornby's corporate strategy late in 2011. They do try to please as many people as they can and consequently have offerings that span their trainset market (which is substantial to them) and their more serious enthusiast market.

 

They had well documented problems with their supply chain for several years and telegraphed a weaker performance than original expectations for the financial year that closed in March. (We should see some final financial announcements soon.) More than ever, their investments need to pay off and we need to assume they know their market (in terms of business) better than we do.

 

A grand investment in lots of new modern image tooling may not be part of the immediate plan, perhaps banking on the on the notion that they can keep milking their existing stable of diesels. No doubt they hope for big things from the Brighton Belle.

 

Once the magnificent distraction of the 2012 Olympic Games is over, it will be interesting to see what Hornby works on then.

[coachmann]

I'm told the Hornby 'Legends' are better detailed 'Railroad' models, so that is yet another range. The problem for consumers is they may not be getting what they think they are getting.

[S.A.C Martin]

I'm told the Hornby 'Legends' are better detailed 'Railroad' models, so that is yet another range. The problem for consumers is they may not be getting what they think they are getting.

 

The "Legends" range is no more physically detailed than the Railroad range, but it has superior lining out. In the case of the A3 and A4 (Scotsman and Mallard) they are essentially Railroad standard models with the full lining out and livery application of the top of the range. The Castle in the Legends range is the old Airfix model - again, tarted up in full GWR livery, and the Evening Star model is the same from the Railroad range - and again, with the full lining out and colour application applied.

 

None of the models in the Legends range offer anything different to Railroad except this improved livery application, and a certificate, of course.

 

I agree with your sentiments though Larry - it's yet another sub-range which offers the potential for confusion.

[PLD]

In terms of the different ranges and detail levels Hornby produce, there is absolutely nothing wrong with 'Market Segmentation' in this way: i.e. offering different products to different audiences (Toy Train / Collector / Serious Modellers). What is sometimes awry with Hornby’s approach is inconsistent branding such that it is not always clear which segment a particular model is aimed at…

 

To deviate back towards the original topic, if Hornby believe they can achieve a higher return from the ex-Lima 73 in the Railroad range than they would from a super-detailed version in the premium range, that’s what they will do, and having both is highly unlikely as they would just add to the confusion and abstract sales from each other (though admittedly they did produce multiple versions of Tornado but I think that will remain the exception rather than the norm)

[The Stationmaster]

Perhaps what they need is a name for their hi(gher) fidelity range - how about 'Hornby Dublo'?

[orcadian]

Perhaps what they need is a name for their hi(gher) fidelity range - how about 'Hornby Dublo'?

 

And then they could rebrand RailRoad as 'Triang' and leave the mid-range as Hornby! :no:

 

Richard

[brushman47544]

I too have on occasion thought "Why on earth are xxxx bringing out that livery?". I think the earlier comment about being able to go to shop and buy what you've just seen on the real railway as particularly relevant and what I at least would consider as modern image. For passenger trains in particular, privatisation era liveries are often here today and gone tomorrow. By the time manufacturers have identified a good livery to produce and get the models into the shops it can be too late, even on a "current model" where tooling exists. There is high financial risk involved, because even subtle changes rather than a new colour scheme (e.g. the addition of a phone number on the bodyside) can reduce a model's appeal. Certainly choosing a good subject when it first appears would seem essential for manufacturers, to get lots of mileage out of the different liveries that will be seen in future years.

 

With the steam railway, and indeed long departed diesels and electrics, that's not such a problem. Those of us more interested in those eras will generally be more experienced modellers and willing to have a go at a bit of painting, renumbering and/or weathering to get exactly what we want. Youngsters (god what an old fashioned word!) being attracted to our hobby now may not (yet) have those skills so are more likely to want their models to look exactly what they see out on the railway. And with so many different trains and liveries to choose from, it's no surprise Hornby (and others) sometimes get it wrong.