RMweb Premium CF MRC Posted April 3, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 3, 2012 I think it's always better to indicate how models can be improved, rather than saying where they are wrong. I learnt this lesson from Geoff Pember in 1974 when I had just joined the Model Railway Club - on looking at my painting of a scratch built body on a MOS 2-10-0 he suggested that I should try Letraset patent numbers rather than trying to hand paint loco numbers on cab sides. Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I think it's always better to indicate how models can be improved, rather than saying where they are wrong. Another nice idea, but sometimes the two go together and it's impossible to discuss improving a model without first being critical. Take the example of the smoke deflectors that Dr Al raised - it's kinda hard to say you're fitting replacements without first pointing out why you're not happy with those provided. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 It amazes me how those who dish out criticism seem to struggle to take it. I have to say I've greatly admired Dapol Dave's restraint in the face of your criticisms. That's just my two penneth, and represents one thread of a healthy discussion. Having no interest in 2mm and gone thru this thread I fail to see the point you're trying to make. I hate the term 'constructive' criticism - but if you apply the antonymic, I haven't seen any 'destructive' criticism either... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les1952 Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Thinking again about the blinkers, and owning up to being one of those who failed to spot that the angle of the cutout at the top wasn't 45 degreees, I think in the short term I would live with them and look to the bespoke brass suppliers to do what happened with the Minitrix Britannia and 9F. For these models those who could live with the overscale thickness of plastic blinkers kept them while those who couldn't replaced them with thinner brass ones much more to their taste. Is this a market opportunity for Bernard Taylor or Alan Cox, I wonder?..... I personally would find little advantage in replacing plastic with plastic unless the model was dropped meaning an urgent replacement for one side only. On this theme- how about brass replacements for the Farish A1 and A2 blinkers so I can do Humorist? Just a thought. Les Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Getting back to the topic of the A3 review, i wonder if we could see a lifesize image of the A3 just to put the size of the loco into perspective. I mean that lining must be very fine and well beyond the skills of even a pro painter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Actually probably not. All you want is the tender drive unit from the A1 (not that you'll get one of those as spares...), and gut the A3's tender to replace its drive mechanism and ditch the drive shaft to leave the loco chassis undriven. I believe the tender wheel spacing is the same between the two. not that I can personally see any real reason or benfit from trying it, but I suspect it is far from that simple in practice. The Dapol loco chassis' gear train is designed to be driven not to "idle" and be pushed by a tender-drive. I suspect leave the gears in place in the Dapol A3 chassis as it is and there would be far too much friction to overcome, remove them and far too much slop to have relaible wheel rotation without locking. Regards Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les1952 Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 not that I can personally see any real reason or benfit from trying it, but I suspect it is far from that simple in practice. The Dapol loco chassis' gear train is designed to be driven not to "idle" and be pushed by a tender-drive. I suspect leave the gears in place in the Dapol A3 chassis as it is and there would be far too much friction to overcome, remove them and far too much slop to have relaible wheel rotation without locking. Regards Roy Having bought a B1 for £10 as a returned non-runner at the open day I would go along with this. It had a missing top gear below the worm. Despite this the loco wouldn't push along easily- it took a loco of great strength (a Union Mills) to drag it with rotating wheels. Dismantling the chassis to get the gears out is a major engineering job not for the fainthearted, and getting it back together best described as "not easy". Far easier to bin the relco - and save a fortune on pitted wheels as a by-product? What happened to the B1? I paid BR Lines to fit a new chassis. Still (just) cost less than a discounted new one. All the very best Les Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 On this theme- how about brass replacements for the Farish A1 and A2 blinkers so I can do Humorist? Just a thought. Les Funnily enough I'd drawn up a set for the Farish A3 (along with new cab sides), though I had to fiddle with the dimensions a bit to make it look right against the Farish model's oversized boiler. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Al Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 It amazes me how those who dish out criticism seem to struggle to take it. I'm not sure I'm 'struggling to take it'! Had plenty on this thread aswell as plenty on the A4 thread, even a comment that came across very badly IMHO from the moderator. I have an opinion, and that clearly came across, and I don't believe it was overly emotive or harsh. There are errors present. IMHO Dapol could have easily avoided them and therefore done better with this blank canvas. I don't mind if folks don't agree - I've not criticised anyone for using emotively positive language......including the original reviewer. But..... pointing out errors always help in the long run. Like it or not, the reason that all these models have a 'super creep' motor with good slow speed performance is due to the criticism the 9F first got for very poor slow running. This has benefitted everyone (Dapol most of all). The same is true of complaints of wheel profiles on 9F (made much finer), wheel colours on Brit and Hall. In fact the list is endless..... Yes, I see those words Andy. I also see those below - I honestly cant remember the last time I saw someone go to such lengths to put forward positives as well as negatives:. Folks only see the negatives, Pennine. They don't seem to forget the positive comments made on a wide variety of threads on various Dapol models. I think it's always better to indicate how models can be improved, rather than saying where they are wrong. I've been trying to do this for a while. I've posted my work on Dapol's Britannias and their Halls showing what I thought could be improved, and how to fix the bogie ride height blunder on the Farish 47. Already made suggestions on the A3, but don't have one (yet) to do the deeds to. I will vote with my wallet, and several A3s will join my fleet, suitably improved and individualised. Sadly not for the A4 though - I won't be buying one of them as the evocative body shape just isn't quite there for me. Cheers, Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elvinley Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 The advice to remove the keeper plate for oiling on the Brit was excellent Alan, as the body did not want to come free even with considerable effort. I think everyone will have their dislikes with new locos and a glaring error to some will be unimportant to others. I really care about how locos run and am hoping for good results from the new pacifics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Having about ten? years ago had to dispose of my late Father-in-law's entire 'n' gauge stocklist, ever wish you had hung onto it! (It being quite a considerable amount) What a fine wee model, warts and all. I don't mind seeing criticism in a thread such as this provided it's evidence based. Cut of the jib type comments - it just looks wrong I find harder to handle but either type of comment / criticism, I can draw my own conclusions as to the validity.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 ... I don't mind seeing criticism in a thread such as this provided it's evidence based. Cut of the jib type comments - it just looks wrong I find harder to handle but either type of comment / criticism, I can draw my own conclusions as to the validity.... I see that 'black and white' distinction Bob, but as ever, I also see the shades of grey. I see a middle ground that's harder to quantify, but still valid, and the A4 is a fairly good example in that it has compound curves, pretty much as a diesel does. Now although such curves are in theory 'measurable' if they're broken down enough, in practice it's very difficult (or time consuming) for even a skilled modeller to do so. But skilled modellers do often have a very good eye for proportions and the disposition of various parts relative to each other, and can pick up things that might not be obvious to others. Like you, I can draw my own conclusions as to the validity of such comments (based on my own perception of how well they know the subject, plus having a shufty myself), but as I said over in the DP2 thread, I really do not feel that it should be incumbent on anyone to produce detailed technical drawings before anyone will listen to them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oreamnos Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 On my computer screen Andy's superb pictures of these A3s are probably about the size of an O gauge model. While I was letting myself get I lost in thought admiring these models, for an instant I forgot they weren't O gauge! These are simply outstanding. I think they look even nicer than the new A4s. Apart from the smoke deflectors which I think look a tad thick, there isn't anything here that spoils the illusion that I am looking at the real thing. A couple of little things on the A4, by contrast, kept me from entering a similar state of reverie. British outline N gaugers have really been spoiled silly over the past couple years, no? Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Agreed Ian, the middle ground is still valid - too many years (for me) of being told that all these things are measurable - lest they'd never have been able to repeat produce them on the 12" to the foot version (give a take a bit of localised "fitting" The advantage that producing detailed facts is that fewer less folk can argue I do wish however (and this may be misguided on my part) we could spend a little less time focussing on the negatives (whilst not ignoring them) and concentrating on the positives. I guess balance is what it's all about! It's a fine wee model nonetheless and surely (as has been said already) a great starting point for those wanting to take it a little bit further. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 I do wish however (and this may be misguided on my part) we could spend a little less time focussing on the negatives (whilst not ignoring them) and concentrating on the positives. I guess balance is what it's all about! Well, as for Dr Al's posts, the inclusion of positives has already been addressed. As for the negatives, it's my feeling that he wouldnt have had to emphasise them so much if folk had just accepted his opinion for what it was and not had to constantly try to batter it down in various ways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 As oreanmos points out, these are not 0 gauge locos, they're N gauge. Large images serve to show us how far N gauge has come over the past few years, and this is why I thought the inclusion of at least one lifesize image would serve to bring people back down to earth. Afterall, look at the effect on some people of a magnified nit....! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Getting back to the topic of the A3 review, i wonder if we could see a lifesize image of the A3 just to put the size of the loco into perspective. I mean that lining must be very fine and well beyond the skills of even a pro painter. And coming from yourself, I take that very seriously Larry. It's excellent testimony as to the overall quality of the item. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagman Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 I think the new Dapol steamers are great, sure there are one or two things you can improve on but overall your not going to notice these things while running. Dapol have set a standard which others have to aspire to and this can only be good for us, the modeller. N gauge has improved 10 fold and I as a modeller look forward to to the inovations for future models coming on the horizon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyingscotsmanfan Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 These models do indeed look the part, my only critisism so far is on the LNER liveried versions that were on display at Ally Pally. The Tenders looked fine to me apart from one thing, the LNER lettering was printed in yellow whereas they should have been printed in gold as that is what they carried in real life. Other then taht niggle the models are outstanding in my opinion and I shall be acquiring one of two for my brothers layout in due course. (and possibly one in LNER livery for myself ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted April 4, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 4, 2012 Actually probably not. All you want is the tender drive unit from the A1 (not that you'll get one of those as spares...), and gut the A3's tender to replace its drive mechanism and ditch the drive shaft to leave the loco chassis undriven. I believe the tender wheel spacing is the same between the two. Or he could just ditch the Relco Given the choice between buying two locos to get one or spending a bit more time on track cleaning I know which I'd choose... You could always spend the extra on a Tomix track cleaner/vac rather than a Farish A1. Happy modelling. Steven B. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Experiment.... I wonder if these are about N gauge size...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Closer to Z gauge I think. A large pacific in N gauge is usually 5-6" long. Probably depends on the monitor too I guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 5 ft 6 inch? That's 5" gauge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Any closer....? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elvinley Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 You must have a massive monitor Coachmann! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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