mwrosebury2000 Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Could all you signal experts advise me on where I have gone right / wrong with the signalling diagram and how I should amend it to make it more prototypical. The main lines will be extended in the future & the fake lines are to make it look like it goes to more places & provide a better operational time table. The layout is a modern layout based in North West England. **Yes I’m aware that it goes in a big loop with lines crossing at 90 degrees, which isn’t prototypical** Many thanks in advance Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madcaravanner Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 Have you not been to Newark ?? there is a flat 90 degree crossing there so yes it is prototypical although I would make all lines cross each other there too not a 2 & 1 Modern signalling has a lot of LED two aspect lights which still give double amber and also they use a flashing amber to indicate a high speed point set for the line (not certain how you would wire that one) at least one and sometimes 2 sections before the crossing Have you thought of maybe another single direction line making your main layout have an UP a DOWN (of which one could also be bi-directional) and a Bi-Directional line that would be quite interesting to operate as you could run local services (153/150-2/158/170/etc) as well as main line express services as well as through block freight/intermodals Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted April 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 7, 2012 Modern signalling has a lot of LED two aspect lights which still give double amber and also they use a flashing amber to indicate a high speed point set for the line (not certain how you would wire that one) at least one and sometimes 2 sections before the crossing [pedant / major annoyance mode] Railway signals do not show AMBER they show yellow [/pedant / major annoyance mode] Flashing aspects are used to give a driver advanced warning that the route is set for a divergence and it is clear to at least the first signal beyond the divergence, they can be double yellow followed by single yellow (both flashing) if the signalling allows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madcaravanner Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 [pedant / major annoyance mode] Railway signals do not show AMBER they show yellow [/pedant / major annoyance mode] Flashing aspects are used to give a driver advanced warning that the route is set for a divergence and it is clear to at least the first signal beyond the divergence. no need for Pedant mode - - - wrong light system but the meaning is understood - - do you know the maximum number of sections that can be set like this ?? I know of two sets of crossings at Chesterfield that show flashing aspects 2 sections prior and wondered if that was the maximum Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted April 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 7, 2012 Could all you signal experts advise me on where I have gone right / wrong with the signalling diagram and how I should amend it to make it more prototypical. The main lines will be extended in the future & the fake lines are to make it look like it goes to more places & provide a better operational time table. The layout is a modern layout based in North West England. **Yes I’m aware that it goes in a big loop with lines crossing at 90 degrees, which isn’t prototypical** Many thanks in advance Mark Mark, What are you trying to portray at S17 and S19 ? (Presumably the shunt at S19?) I would make all signals at least 3-aspect - removing some issues where you have possible green onto red aspects. Loose S5 and add an extra feather to S4. S16 needs a feather if you want the bi-di capability. The TMD line and the "S20" line need trap points (although if the loop is goods only they could be omitted, the likelihood is they would be provided) as do the two sidings on the inside S11 would have cats eyes (shunt) with a stencil for the sidings, not a feather. Alter and repost the plan and I can further advise if any more changes are required. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted April 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 7, 2012 do you know the maximum number of sections that can be set like this ?? I know of two sets of crossings at Chesterfield that show flashing aspects 2 sections prior and wondered if that was the maximum Only the double and/or the single yellows flash. (Flashing greens on the ECML are nothing to do with junction signalling.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwrosebury2000 Posted April 7, 2012 Author Share Posted April 7, 2012 Thanks for the replies, I will amend the drawing and post an update when I have more time… If I drop the shunt signal at S17 - if the track was clear trains could be held at S19? S19 wouldn’t need a shunt signal as trains going into the siding could pass on a caution if I made it 3 aspect? The siding will be an old line that once led into a tunnel (now bricked up). Trains leaving S12 & 13 would be leaving a station platform so would this have an impact on the signal type for S11? Indeed I intend putting trap points on the TMD line and S20 to protect the main lines. The only reason the fake line has got any bi running is because it doesn’t go anywhere and will be difficult to reach, it will be hidden by a tunnel or similar and I’m going to use the rule of it isn’t seen so it doesn’t happen so I’m thinking of getting rid of S5, as S5 would hold a train over the main lines anyway. Thanks Madcaravanner, I was in two minds if I should make all lines cross and now I shall. Hope this helps, Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted April 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 7, 2012 Thanks for the replies, I will amend the drawing and post an update when I have more time… If I drop the shunt signal at S17 - if the track was clear trains could be held at S19? S19 wouldn’t need a shunt signal as trains going into the siding could pass on a caution if I made it 3 aspect? The siding will be an old line that once led into a tunnel (now bricked up). Trains leaving S12 & 13 would be leaving a station platform so would this have an impact on the signal type for S11? Indeed I intend putting trap points on the TMD line and S20 to protect the main lines. The only reason the fake line has got any bi running is because it doesn’t go anywhere and will be difficult to reach, it will be hidden by a tunnel or similar and I’m going to use the rule of it isn’t seen so it doesn’t happen so I’m thinking of getting rid of S5, as S5 would hold a train over the main lines anyway. S11 would more than likely be a 4-aspect with a theatre rather than feathers. S17 shows a shunt and a 2-aspect signal ... that's the clarification required. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwrosebury2000 Posted April 8, 2012 Author Share Posted April 8, 2012 I’ve been thinking about your comments and have amended the drawing like so S11 has a theater, S17 is just a cation / danger 2 aspect (no shunt) I'm not the best with computers and don't know how to upload the new drawing. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted April 8, 2012 Share Posted April 8, 2012 I'm not the best with computers and don't know how to upload the new drawing. Maybe the same way you uploaded the first one?? Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted April 8, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 8, 2012 Not sure I understand the track plan. If a train is running anti-clockwise around the loop - S9, S8, S7 etc. It would seem that the only place it can go is to S14. The only way to continue onto the 'Main Lines', is to shunt over the crossover & reverse at S3, then the train can go via S4 or S18. However since there is no run round facility, only MU's can do this. Perhaps another (trailing) crossover is missing at the LH end of the station? Kevin Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwrosebury2000 Posted April 8, 2012 Author Share Posted April 8, 2012 Good point Kevin, I have amended the drawing to show this however I’m not sure how trains will cope with this… I’ve heard of people having problems when trains run from one set of double points into another set of points. Also I have figured out how to put drawings into a reply. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted April 8, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 8, 2012 Looking much better - just a couple of comments - S19 should be 3 aspect or at least capable of showing a yellow proceed aspect as it reads to a signal capable of showing red, plus a sub to read to the siding. S14 and 215 should also be capable of showing yellow for the same reason. S18 should really, I think, have a sub aspect to read towards the shed and very definitely not a full green. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwrosebury2000 Posted April 9, 2012 Author Share Posted April 9, 2012 Daft question, whats a sub aspect? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted April 9, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 9, 2012 Daft question, whats a sub aspect? One of those things that shows two white lights when 'off' and it's mounted below the main aspect so it is subsidiaery to it and called a subsidiary or 'sub' aspect' (i'.e. it's basically a ground position light signal but mounted on the main signal post and it doesn't show red as the main signal does that). Here are a couple of pics - Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwrosebury2000 Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 Ah I understand now, just wasn't sure of the terminology thats all. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted April 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 11, 2012 As Mike says S24 / S25 need to be 3-aspect as does the one on the platform, S19 and S20 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 As Mike says S24 / S25 need to be 3-aspect as does the one on the platform, S19 and S20 Have I missed something or are you looking at a different plan to the rest of us? I can't see any S24 or S25, and S20 is a shunt out of the siding. Don't seem to be mentioned in Mike's post either. Puzzled Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted April 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 11, 2012 Typo - not exactly hard to work out which signals I was referring to of course, there aren't many signals which aren't 3-aspect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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