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Heljan 14 poor running


Dan Griffin

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ive read the 20 odd pages of the class 14 thread but cant seem to find anyone else who has this problem. my 14, 14029 in blue, is dcc fitted with a Hornby decoder.

 

when it travels over insufrog points, it stalls, and then sets off again. ive cleaned all track and wheels and adjusted the pick ups, but it still does it.

 

it seems to be on certain sets of points and not others (not on my three way point, but it will on my double slip), all my layouts points are insulfrog peco ones.

 

ive not noticed if it is when it is working in a certain direction, i.e short bonnet first, it just becomming quite an annoyance and is spoiling an others brilliant model.

 

cheers, dan

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  • 3 years later...
  • RMweb Gold

I am also having some problems with my Heljan 14. I searched and found the single post above but it seems from the lack of response to that post that most people do not have problems.

 

I am using code 75 Peco track (with switched live frogs) and use various turnouts including 3 ways and a double slip. I use DCC. Track and wheels are kept clean.

 

I do not have any real running problems with the rest of my loco stock which ranges from the Hornby Pug to a couple of 2-10-0 locos. Other short wheelbase include both steam and diesel Sentinels.

 

All locos are run in on a rolling road followed by layout operation. They are also carefully lubricated.

 

However my 14 exhibits a real "clunky" ride and can be hesitant. It may also suddenly stop as the previous poster described. My first thought was back to back settings so, using a proper gauge, I have made several attempts to adjust the wheel spacing but, so far, cannot achieve smooth running. Certainly adjustment does seem to alter the problem as sometimes it runs with less hesitation but then seems to ride up on the check rails when going over the points and can run jerkily on tighter curves (but where other 2-8-0s,etc run fine). I assume that indicates the wheel spacing is too small (although the gauge fits between the wheels it is tight) but opening it out causes other problems in running. It seems that every time I check and recheck I am still getting nowhere. I have done this sucessfully with several other locos so am frustrated by not being able to sort this one.

 

I note that the wheelbase is long for an 0-6-0 and wonder if that contributes in any way.

 

Any ideas out there please? Suggestions welcome. Thanks.

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Both these problem children undoubtedly run OK if the deocder gets power if I am reading the descriptions correctly, so it is getting to the bottom of the cause of occasional loss of track power to the decoder.

 

ive read the 20 odd pages of the class 14 thread but cant seem to find anyone else who has this problem. my 14, 14029 in blue, is dcc fitted with a Hornby decoder.

when it travels over insufrog points, it stalls, and then sets off again...

That's usually a symptom of the loco momentarily losing track connection, so there is no power. Most decoders are set up to stop when power is lost, and after a specified brief time-out to resume from stopped and accelerate up to whatever speed step they are set at. In a rigid chassis six coupled this happens all too easily on a dead frog point, as the point is often bowed upward slightly, and the frog is a high point. The wheel on the frog cannot collect current, and if it is lifting the other two that side clear of the rails - even if only for a moment - no track power.

 

The other factor I would suggest inspecting for is good pick-up wiper contact. Move each wheelset side to side through full travel: do the wipers maintain positive contact even at furthest stretch? Many models are supplied with the wipers only making very light contact near end of travel. Give them some more bend to make contact really positive. I have over the years bought cheap several reportedly duff runners, and five minutes wiper bending has produced a complete solution.

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  • RMweb Gold

Both these problem children undoubtedly run OK if the deocder gets power if I am reading the descriptions correctly, so it is getting to the bottom of the cause of occasional loss of track power to the decoder.

 

That's usually a symptom of the loco momentarily losing track connection, so there is no power. Most decoders are set up to stop when power is lost, and after a specified brief time-out to resume from stopped and accelerate up to whatever speed step they are set at. In a rigid chassis six coupled this happens all too easily on a dead frog point, as the point is often bowed upward slightly, and the frog is a high point. The wheel on the frog cannot collect current, and if it is lifting the other two that side clear of the rails - even if only for a moment - no track power.

 

The other factor I would suggest inspecting for is good pick-up wiper contact. Move each wheelset side to side through full travel: do the wipers maintain positive contact even at furthest stretch? Many models are supplied with the wipers only making very light contact near end of travel. Give them some more bend to make contact really positive. I have over the years bought cheap several reportedly duff runners, and five minutes wiper bending has produced a complete solution.

 

Thanks for the response.

 

That's probably about the only thing I haven't tried. I have looked but, to be honest, probably not close enough and I haven't tried any adjustment. It may also reflect the inconsistency of the problem.

 

Looks like a job for today as it's pouring outside!

 

Thanks again.

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  • RMweb Gold

Problem not yet cured but it is improved.

 

When looking at pick up wipers I noticed that some parts of the wheel backs were covered in paint. This must have occurred when the model was "weathered" as it is the same colour as the frame weathering. They sprayed the wheels but some spray went through to the back of the opposite wheel. That was obviously not helping my problem at all.

 

I also cleaned the backs of the wheels after scraping off this paint and that produced a load of black dirt. I have done this to locos before when maintaining them but have never seen so much muck come off.

 

The model still suffers from a "freezing" action so the next move is to remove the body and I think I will change the decoder - there is something in my mind that there is a problem in that area as well - so more work to do. The decoder is an early DCC Concepts one and I had some problems with other bought at the same time where the leads on to the decoder board were not well attached.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • RMweb Gold

Problems continue!

 

I have spent considerable time in the last few weeks trying to make this loco run well. My last post above was just the start. In addition to the above I have:

 

I changed the decoder to a Zimo unit but the problems persisted as before.

 

Apart from paint spray on the back of the wheels I noted that the metal outer parts of the wheels did not always fit perfectly on the plastic centres so that there was a slight edge on the inside of the wheel. I suspected that this may be holding the wiper contact off the inside metal face of the wheel so ran a blade around each wheel to remove this lip.

 

I have throughly cleaned the contacts and the backs of the wheels with a fibreglass brush followed by cleaning with "Track Magic".

 

The track and the wheels surfaces themselves have been thoroughly cleaned. Other locos run the same track without problems (including a "Pug").

 

I have checked the alignment of each wiper to make sure they contact the correct part of the wheel and are sprung against it.

 

I have checked and altered wheel back to back measurements several times using a gauge.

 

I fitted some washers to the axles to reduce the slop. I filed the back of the coupling rod fixing pins on the jackshaft in case they were catching and binding.

 

I have checked alignment of the rods and quartering plus checked to see if any wheels are distorted. All appears to be OK.

 

One problem I cannot seem to solve is a bit of a mystery though. One of the wheels exhibits a problem in that it does not seem to pass current from the wheel to the contact wiper even after I have done all the above. I suspect that this may be the problem for the "freezing" when running on track in that one wheel loses contact for a moment (I agree that should not really be a problem but it is the only "fault" I can find that could cause this erratic running) . It's partner on the other side of the axle is fine. This is confirmed by running the loco upside down in a cradle and applying power to each individual wheel - just one wheel does not work (this is a repeated test by the way with the wheels in different positions). The contact wiper itself is fine and "rings out" correctly on my meter. I had suspected the connection to the wiper but it is one of the "double ones" that connects to two wheels and it connects perfectly to the second wheel. I also soldered a "bridge" across the two contacts to make sure. I just cannot see why this one wheel should be a problem.

 

Can anyone please suggest something to help? I have taken the wheels out, cleaned, checked and aligned more often than I can remember now. I am determined to get this model running properly but am defeated at this moment.

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Go back to the track. Sounds like you have done about everything to the 14 that can be done (and found a fair few issues). Are the points pinned down? are they perfectly flat? Despite other locos performing 0ok through the track the 1 is/might be a bit of a rogue. It really doesn't take much for insulfrog points to cause problems as there will always be at least one pickup briefly out of use. Does it make a difference driving the loco through at higher speeds?

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  • RMweb Gold

Go back to the track. Sounds like you have done about everything to the 14 that can be done (and found a fair few issues). Are the points pinned down? are they perfectly flat? Despite other locos performing 0ok through the track the 1 is/might be a bit of a rogue. It really doesn't take much for insulfrog points to cause problems as there will always be at least one pickup briefly out of use. Does it make a difference driving the loco through at higher speeds?

 

Thanks for responding.

 

Points are flat and are lightly pinned and then ballasted (as usual - ballast, PVA, etc.). I use code 75 Peco with live, switched frogs (including double slips which work very well).

 

I don't have any problems with any other loco which range from the Hornby Pug through Sentinels (diesel and steam versions), Dapol J94s, Jinties, diesels, up to 8Fs and 9Fs.It is regularly cleaned using either good quality track rubbers plus Track Magic (or Isopropanol) and other methods.

 

This loco has never run smoothly. I should have sent it back from new but always assumed I could fix it when I had the time. I have now had it too long to return. I had suspected wheel back to back problems and that was partly true but it seems that there is more of a problem than that. It is very frustrating as I have always managed to sort out running problems on other locos (with exception of an original old Bachmann 03 where the axles collapsed - quite a common problem with that model). The 14 does have a long wheelbase which I think contributes to the problem but my 8Fs and 9Fs don't have problems on the same track. The contact problem just doesn't make sense at all (my career was in electronics so, although not a qualified engineer, I am reasonably skilled with such measurements and hopefully know what to look for to make a good circuit).

 

I may see if I can source a set of Heljan spare wheels. I know I could try Ultrascale wheels but that is an expensive solution (and long term) if wheels are not the cause.

 

It's baffling me! :scratchhead:

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I'm considering taking out the circuit boards etc on mine and then hard wiring a decoder in permenantly as I have had issues with mine.

 

I'm not sure if it will improve things much, but I don't use sound or the lights, so no need for all that extra circuitry.

 

Thanks.

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  • RMweb Gold

I'm considering taking out the circuit boards etc on mine and then hard wiring a decoder in permenantly as I have had issues with mine.

 

I'm not sure if it will improve things much, but I don't use sound or the lights, so no need for all that extra circuitry.

 

Thanks.

 

Before you do that have you tried just swapping to a different decoder?

 

As mentioned above, I did suspect a problem with a decoder at one time but have since tried two others of different types and it made no difference at all. There really does seem to be an issue with the wheels and/or contacts on a few of these models judging by other forum comments.

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I had this issue on one locomotive (a Hornby Terrier) and I found that the pickup wiper, while following the wheel was out of alignment with the tyre and rubbing on the plastic wheel centre.  The symptoms you list are not decoder or motor related, they work fine on straight track.  If one wheel pickup is electrically dead, you need to check each interface.  I use Peco wheel cleaning wire brushes and check each wheel in turn.

 

Best regards

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  • RMweb Gold

I had this issue on one locomotive (a Hornby Terrier) and I found that the pickup wiper, while following the wheel was out of alignment with the tyre and rubbing on the plastic wheel centre.  The symptoms you list are not decoder or motor related, they work fine on straight track.  If one wheel pickup is electrically dead, you need to check each interface.  I use Peco wheel cleaning wire brushes and check each wheel in turn.

 

Best regards

 

I appreciate your suggestion but, as I mentioned in a previous post above, I have already looked at the alignment of each of the wipers, removing the wheels mutiple times to check.

 

I also use Peco wire brushes to clean wheels. I have two brushes fixed togther with a spacer in between so that the gap aligns with the wheels. With the loco upside down in a cradle I apply the brushes, with power on, and move it back and forth so that the wheels are cleaned while they turn. This method provided the clue that all the wheels were not providing power as when applied to just one particular pair of wheels the loco stopped but worked OK with all of the other pairs.

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  • 10 months later...

I appreciate your suggestion but, as I mentioned in a previous post above, I have already looked at the alignment of each of the wipers, removing the wheels mutiple times to check.

 

I also use Peco wire brushes to clean wheels. I have two brushes fixed togther with a spacer in between so that the gap aligns with the wheels. With the loco upside down in a cradle I apply the brushes, with power on, and move it back and forth so that the wheels are cleaned while they turn. This method provided the clue that all the wheels were not providing power as when applied to just one particular pair of wheels the loco stopped but worked OK with all of the other pairs.

I had this problem with this model, the final fix was to replace the wheels with an ultrascale set, not a cheap solution but it finally worked.  I was convinced that there was a pickup issue somewhere and it seems to have been associated with the wheels.

 

Best regards

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  • RMweb Gold

Just a thought.... Is the loco always placed the same way round on the track?

 

As you have narrowed down a likely cause, if the loco is so orientated that the suspect wheel does not pass through the frog, the fault should, in principle, not arise  

 

John

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  • RMweb Gold

Just a thought.... Is the loco always placed the same way round on the track?

 

As you have narrowed down a likely cause, if the loco is so orientated that the suspect wheel does not pass through the frog, the fault should, in principle, not arise  

 

John

Thanks for your suggestion but, as stated at the beginning of this thread, virtually every combination of possibilities was tried and, even if not specifically stated, then this was also tried.

 

I eventually contacted Hattons and, although the loco was over 12 months old, they (finally!) agreed to send a complete set of replacement wheels. These were duly fitted and did improve things a bit but did not absolutely cure the poor running of this model.

 

I accept that Ultrascale wheels are probably the solution as I believe that it is the poor quality of the original wheels fitted that causes this problem. I have not had any problems with any other Heljan loco I run.

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  • 2 years later...

Hi I realise this is an old post but I am fairly new to this game. I too have been having problems similar to the above. I am attempting to build a '60s DCC 00 layout - mainly diesels with sound. I have also invested in a Sprog Ii to ease the programming task (so I thought). I find I have problems with ALL my Heljan diesels particularly those with a Co-Co Bogie arrangement ie mainly Westerns and Type 47s. I have an oval 'test' track. The problem is intermittent running with frequent dead stops. Like the original threader I have done all the track and wheel cleaning procedures I can think of - to no effect. I even relaid my test track and took out ALL the points - still no change. I get NO problems with my Bachmann 'Peak' (D27) nor with my Dapol Westerns or the one Bachmann Type 47 I have. The problem persists whether I use the Sprog or my DCC system (Dynamis) with my Heljan diesels and goes away when I use another manufacturers diesels. I have narrowed the problem down to the Heljans but what is it ? I am at my wits end. Would appreciate some clues/answers assuming this thread is still live. Clive

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Have you tried a different controller?

Thanks for replying. Not sure what your question means. As stated I have used my main DCC controller (Dynamis) and a PC based controller called a SPROGII with the same result. I have however since found out that there might be a problem with Heljan wheels !! It seems that some years ago they changed to a different metal (Nickel I think) though the reasons  for this are not clear. I found some info on another site where users have had similar problems and changing the wheel sets seems to have cured it. Unfortunately am now having problems trying to source a set of 'new' wheels. Howes unfortunately do not have any. Many thanks. 

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  • RMweb Gold

Hi Folks, I had problems with my earlier 95xx model. Although DC, the movement side to side was quite extensive, to the point of connectivity loss with the pickup wipers.

 

One of our posters on here had a neat little fix with using 'C' clips, which tidied up the running qualities no end. I can't remember the gents name, but full credit to him. It only cost a couple of pennies as well....

 

Try having a look on Youtube, there's a 5-minute tutorial on improving the locomotive.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Ian.

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... I get NO problems with my Bachmann 'Peak' (D27) nor with my Dapol Westerns or the one Bachmann Type 47 I have. The problem persists whether I use the Sprog or my DCC system (Dynamis) with my Heljan diesels and goes away when I use another manufacturers diesels. I have narrowed the problem down to the Heljans but what is it ? I am at my wits end. Would appreciate some clues/answers assuming this thread is still live.

 If your other items run well then you are down to the Heljan's characteristics. Sounds like you are on the earlier brass wheels on these, but these do work well if the rail is kept clean (no plastic wheels or traction tyres on the layout) once they are thoroughly polished up by use.

 

Pick up wipers first. Pull off the bogie sideframes, drop out the wheelsets and form the wipers to make very positive contact with each wheelback. Reassemble. Run them for hours on end to get the contacting surfaces really polished, alternating direction occasionally. The early 47s purchaaed by friends that I have experience of needed several hours running to get into what I considered reliable pick up condition. More recent product (my own all bought in the last half dozen years) with the nickel slver wheelsets are equivalent to the current Bachmann and Hornby, and go nicely straight out of the box..

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Hi Folks, I had problems with my earlier 95xx model. Although DC, the movement side to side was quite extensive, to the point of connectivity loss with the pickup wipers.

 

One of our posters on here had a neat little fix with using 'C' clips, which tidied up the running qualities no end. I can't remember the gents name, but full credit to him. It only cost a couple of pennies as well....

 

Try having a look on Youtube, there's a 5-minute tutorial on improving the locomotive.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Ian.

 

I can't recall if it was me who posted suggesting the C-clips - but that was how I improved the running of my Teddy Bear.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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Hi I realise this is an old post but I am fairly new to this game. I too have been having problems similar to the above. I am attempting to build a '60s DCC 00 layout - mainly diesels with sound. I have also invested in a Sprog Ii to ease the programming task (so I thought). I find I have problems with ALL my Heljan diesels particularly those with a Co-Co Bogie arrangement ie mainly Westerns and Type 47s. I have an oval 'test' track. The problem is intermittent running with frequent dead stops. Like the original threader I have done all the track and wheel cleaning procedures I can think of - to no effect. I even relaid my test track and took out ALL the points - still no change. I get NO problems with my Bachmann 'Peak' (D27) nor with my Dapol Westerns or the one Bachmann Type 47 I have. The problem persists whether I use the Sprog or my DCC system (Dynamis) with my Heljan diesels and goes away when I use another manufacturers diesels. I have narrowed the problem down to the Heljans but what is it ? I am at my wits end. Would appreciate some clues/answers assuming this thread is still live. Clive

 

Heljan diesels are heavy and infamous for high power consumption (although a good one is smooth, quiet and will pull more than almost anything else). It has been reported that some decoders can’t cope with the current draw and cut out. Perhaps your decoders are the problem. It might be worth trying a decoder with a higher rating.

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  • RMweb Gold

I can't recall if it was me who posted suggesting the C-clips - but that was how I improved the running of my Teddy Bear.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

It might be you John, but I can't remember. I do remember putting 2 clips per side, by way of experimentation. As you've said, the running qualities were vastly improved, and removed the clicking noise as well. Most of my track is laid on code 75 medium radius points, and the loco sailed over without bother.

 

I'll have a look to see who the gent was. It was a very good idea.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

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