LNER autocoaches/railmotors/push-pull units

[Chuffinell]

Anyone know how extensive were these on the LNER (& which constituents)? and what was the general configuration? Also livery details (LNER days & pre-group). Any pic's? Also wondering what models/kits might be available in OO/4mm scale? is it possible to do a conversion of the Hornby GWR models?

Any info useful -

Thanks in advance.

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

 

There was no resemblance at all to the GWR ones.

The first LNER push pull driving trailers were converted from pre- grouping coaches. There were some clerestory roofed ones on the ex NER area. In the 1930s these started to be replaced with converted Gresley 51ft Non corridor stock.Used in GER area, NER area and in Scotland The first conversions only involved cutting larger windows in the brake end and fitting the driving equipment. Otherwise the coach looked the same. The new Hornby 51ft brake 3rd would be a good starting point. Later conversions in the late 1940s had even larger windows in the end and droplight windows cut into the driving end panel of the coach sides.Livery was the same as the other coaching stock of the period.

Steam Railcars were used over much of the LNER in the 1930/40s but were extinct by Nationalisation.These were cream/green. (same green as LNER locos) The only model I know of is the Nu Cast white metal kit of the Sentinel. I did pattern making for this kit in IIRC the late 1970s. I dont know if it is still available as the last owner of the Nu Cast range is retiring.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

Edited May 15, 2012 by Ian Kirk

[billbedford]

The definitive (only?) article on push-pull coaches is in Model Railway Journal No 32, summer 1990.

[A Murphy]

Manchester London Road to Glossop and Hadfield services were largely composed of push pull sets from the late 1930's to 1954. they were also used around Guide Bridge to Stalybridge and Oldham. As far as I am aware, all of these sets were composed of ex-GCR stock, including clerestories and a non clerestory twelve wheel Edwardian saloon. I think at least one of the driving trailers was a converted railmotor with a central double door. I am not aware of any Gresley vehicles being used in any of these sets, but I'm no expert. Any album that includes shots of the Western end of the Woodhead route in LNER/early BR days will have shots, particularly E.M. Johnston's Woodhead Pt1, Scenes from the past 29, his book on Manchester suburban railways and his articles in BRILL on Britain's New Railway, 2009 -2011. I know Bill does nearly all of these as etches in his 'made to order range' in 2mm (yipee), which probably means they are available as 4mm, but if you had a go at converting one of the older (shorter) Hornby GWR clerestory brake ends, you could probably come up with a good representation. The GCR clerestory stock ran on 49' 4" underframes.

Edited May 16, 2012 by A Murphy

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Other than the possibility of converting Hornby's recently produced brake 3rd, it's kits all the way. One problem is that there isn't a general configuration, the power is largely pre-group company territory specific. Someone will jump in to correct me if I am wrong, but my feeling is that the only LNER built type used on push-pull would be the GER design, but grouping era build N7? ( If I had to place a bet on what might get a RTR model within the foreseeable future, that would be my top candidate: a good fit for much of what is already available for modelling the London/GNR/GER area.)

 

The C12 4-4-2T, for which the old Craftsman kit can be used (is it currently in production/available?) covers the GNR area further North.

[Katier]

While all were built pre-group, 21 G5's were converted to push-pull working by LNER in 1937.

Pre grouping I believe it was mainly G6 BTP's used on push pull in the NER.

[Ian Kirk]

Hi All,

 

If anyone wants to try a quick conversion on a Hornby Brake Third I have uploaded some photos of the real thing. These were in departmental service by this time as by the time I was old enough to have the camera and get the pass these services had been replaced by DMUs or railcars.

The first photo shows the end windows of the 4 compartment driving trailer which had been on the well known and well photographed Craigendoran and Arrochar service on the bottom end of the West Highland. The pipework and control gear had been removed by this time. Second photo is of the same coach showing that the sides were not altered in this 1940 conversion. (but it had lost its Gresley bogies and aquired Fox type from a CCT plus a wagon type handbrake for its departmental role) Third photo is of another LNER brake third but converted by BR (1950?) showing the more extensive changes to the driving end. The drawing in Nick Caplings "Historic carriage Drawings" vol 1 LNER & Constituents shows the coaches converted for the Epping Ongar service in late LNER period These are somewhere in between and have small droplights in the sidepanels and two big windows in the end but not the central one of the BR. As well as the driving trailers the coaches that ran with them had also to be converted by having the control gear rub through.

Two C15s were fitted with push pull gear for the Craigendoran and Arrochar but only one was needed at any one time. Coaches converted consisted of the 4 compartment brake third, the 6 compartment brake composite and a semi corridor lav. composite was piped through.The coaches could be varied according to the traffic. Most usual formation seems to have been lav.composite and 4 comp driving trailer. At least it was the few times I saw it. I have seen a photograph in a book of the loco, the brake composite then the brake third. I have yet to see one of the loco with only the brake composite but I assume that that was the purpose of that conversion, perhaps only used in such deep winter that no photographers were around.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[Jol Wilkinson]

Other than the possibility of converting Hornby's recently produced brake 3rd, it's kits all the way. One problem is that there isn't a general configuration, the power is largely pre-group company territory specific. Someone will jump in to correct me if I am wrong, but my feeling is that the only LNER built type used on push-pull would be the GER design, but grouping era build N7? ( If I had to place a bet on what might get a RTR model within the foreseeable future, that would be my top candidate: a good fit for much of what is already available for modelling the London/GNR/GER area.)

 

The C12 4-4-2T, for which the old Craftsman kit can be used (is it currently in production/available?) covers the GNR area further North.

While all were built pre-group, 21 G5's were converted to push-pull working by LNER in 1937.

Pre grouping I believe it was mainly G6 BTP's used on push pull in the NER.

 

London Road Models do the square tank version of the GNR C12 4-4-2T, as as well as the NER G5 0-4-4-T. www.londonroadmodels.co.uk I think that the Craftsman C12 is also still available.

[benachie]

Hi All,

 

If anyone wants to try a quick conversion on a Hornby Brake Third I have uploaded some photos of the real thing. These were in departmental service by this time as by the time I was old enough to have the camera and get the pass these services had been replaced by DMUs or railcars.

The first photo shows the end windows of the 4 compartment driving trailer which had been on the well known and well photographed Craigendoran and Arrochar service on the bottom end of the West Highland. The pipework and control gear had been removed by this time. Second photo is of the same coach showing that the sides were not altered in this 1940 conversion. (but it had lost its Gresley bogies and aquired Fox type from a CCT plus a wagon type handbrake for its departmental role) Third photo is of another LNER brake third but converted by BR (1950?) showing the more extensive changes to the driving end. The drawing in Nick Caplings "Historic carriage Drawings" vol 1 LNER & Constituents shows the coaches converted for the Epping Ongar service in late LNER period These are somewhere in between and have small droplights in the sidepanels and two big windows in the end but not the central one of the BR. As well as the driving trailers the coaches that ran with them had also to be converted by having the control gear rub through.

Two C15s were fitted with push pull gear for the Craigendoran and Arrochar but only one was needed at any one time. Coaches converted consisted of the 4 compartment brake third, the 6 compartment brake composite and a semi corridor lav. composite was piped through.The coaches could be varied according to the traffic. Most usual formation seems to have been lav.composite and 4 comp driving trailer. At least it was the few times I saw it. I have seen a photograph in a book of the loco, the brake composite then the brake third. I have yet to see one of the loco with only the brake composite but I assume that that was the purpose of that conversion, perhaps only used in such deep winter that no photographers were around.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

Ian,

Your pictures have been most helpful in answering a question that I have asked previously on these pages. It appears (surprisingly) that the Isinglas drawing is incorrect. Can I assume

1. that the square panel centrally below the rear windows is a departmental add-on

2. the St Combs branch conversions were the same as on the Craigendoran-Arrochar?

Alan

Edited May 18, 2012 by benachie

[clecklewyke]

I'm surprised that Ian Kirk, originator of the Kirk kits brand. does not mention that Kirk did a nice 4mm model of the Epping-Ongar P/P driving trailer. I'll be employing modellers' licence to use one of these on a NER region service into Bradford north Western, using my London Road G5 - a really superb kit.

 

Around Hull, there were G5-hauled push-pull services on several lines, not least those to Howden on the old H&B, which I could see from my bedroom window in Hull. These used converted NER stock. Somewhere, Mick Nicholson has published a picture of such a train at Kirkella. I am afraid I cannot find that but here is another of his at Howden.

 

 

Lovely!

 

Ian

[Ian Kirk]

Hi,

 

Ian, thanks for the comment on one of my former kits ( I sold the range about 20 years ago) if you say it it is a comment, if I say it it could be construed as advertising! Also the original enquiry seemed to refer to RTR. I was only thinking about the coaches until someone pointed out that suitable locos were only currently available as kits. Nice photo, I have a picture of the other end of a similar NE push pull brake composite showing the round porthole style driving windows. Also a clerestory roofed one with one of the BTH tanks that Katier mentioned but I did not put them up as think they are Copyright. All part of the material that was sent to me a long time ago while I was doing some work for the then owner of Nu Cast. He contemplated commisioning plastic kits for these from me to complement the loco kits in his range but he never took up my quote so these are kits that might have been...He went ahead with the Sentinel Railcar instead but in white metal.

 

Alan, Fairly sure the panel dated from departmental use as can not think of anything else it could have been. I have no photos of this coach in use (photographers tended to concentrate on the C15 end) but photos of other conversions with the wiring still on show nothing like this. The St.Combs and Arrochar conversions were done at the same time and to the same diagram so I assume they were the same. All of these conversions of Gresley standards to push pull were "local" conversions and usually intended for specific services so much might have depended on the interpretation of the local carriage shop foreman. The Isinglass drawing will be based on one diagram as issued and probably does not take this into account. Latterly I believe that the St Combs and Arrocher sets were mixed as they ended up with two of each available for this service.

 

best wishes,

 

Ian

[gresley]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the article (with photo and drawings) of the LNER Push-Pull sets used for the Manchester - Glossop - Hadfield and the Oldham - Ashton - Guide Bridge services which appeared in the Railway Modeller, Nov 1968, pages 338/339.

 

As a boy I travelled on the Glossop service regularly on my way to and from Manchester London Road for spotting trips.

 

The locos used were Push-Pull fitted Class C 13 4-4-2 tanks.

 

These sets were only ousted when the first phase of the Woodhead electrification was introduced and the then new EMUs took over.

 

gresley

[teaky]

The CooperCraft website still has driving trailer ends at £2 (go to http://cooper-craft.co.uk/ and search for end drv) and a 8835 51' Trailer at £15.

 

Presumably these are Ian's original designs.

[kits galore]

The Kirk 4mm range of LNER coach kits are in short supply at the moment due to a production problem at Cooper Craft. You could try H&A Models as they normally have the full range in stock.

[micklner]

There are pictures on my old RM thread Pages 1 & 6 of my Geo Norton push pull G5 (using Alexander Models push pull add on parts who also do a G5 kit) and a D&S ex NER Push pull coach with Porthole windows for the driving end. The same type of windows were used on the ex NER Push pull Clerestory stock too.

Edited November 6, 2012 by micklner

[MarkC]

Steam Railcars were used over much of the LNER in the 1930/40s but were extinct by Nationalisation.These were cream/green. (same green as LNER locos)

 

I've seen a photo of a Sentinel Steam Railcar in what appears to be NER style lined maroon, taken on the Whitby-Scarborough line. I'll see if I can find it when I get the chance, unless someone beats me to it

 

Mark

[micklner]

I've seen a photo of a Sentinel Steam Railcar in what appears to be NER style lined maroon, taken on the Whitby-Scarborough line. I'll see if I can find it when I get the chance, unless someone beats me to it

 

Mark

 

I would like to see that one !! Are you sure its not the NER version one of which is being restored at moment.

[MarkC]

I would like to see that one !! Are you sure its not the NER version one of which is being restored at moment.

 

I am, yes. I'm looking for the pic I referred to before, but I've found this - another pic on this link

 

http://www.lner.info/locos/Railcar/sentinel.shtml

 

Scroll down to Diagram 88

 

Cheers

Mark

[MarkC]

Also, the pic of Diagram 14600-614E might be maroon too

 

Mark

[billbedford]

The Sentinels were originally painted in LNER carriage livery i.e. imitation teak with primrose lining. They were painted vermillion and cream from January 1928 and green and cream from May 1928. Only one, 2136 Hope, made it into BR ownership all be it briefly , so there was no chance of any having a maroon livery.

[micklner]

I agree, I would also say Teak no idea re lining.

[MarkC]

Thanks guys - it does look like maroon - the joys of b/w and/or sepia images, eh?

 

The pic I was originally thinking of is on P81 of Robin Lidster's "Scarborough & Whitby Railway through time".

 

Mark

[EddieB]

Don't forget that, in addition to the Sentinels, the LNER also ran Clayton steam railcars - though I think all were scrapped in the mid-thirties.

 

There's a book available which gives their history (and scale drawings) and includes some O gauge models. Rather than pay silly prices secondhand or on flea-bay, the publisher still has a stock of new copies http://www.ruddocksoflincoln.co.uk/store/product/71842/Clayton-Wagons-Ltd-by-J-G-Ruddock-%26-R-E-Pearson/.

[Sasquatch]

Here`s a couple of poor shots of my attempt at the kirk kit. Much detailing rquired.

[Sasquatch]

I should have dusted of the roof, which allows access to the internal lighting rechargeable battery!Hence that ugly gap.