RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 18, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 18, 2012 Thanks for this, it is really interesting; Norton Junc No.2 appears to be the closest match to our box then. Some photos of No.1 and No.3 here, but none of No.2, unfortunately. Norton Junction No.2 is visible on this shot http://southstaffsrail.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=104575774 Look just above the right hand rake of empty stock. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Norton Junction No.2 is visible on this shot http://southstaffsra...otoid=104575774 Look just above the right hand rake of empty stock. A friend of mine, Ian Pell, has been researching Norton Junction and the South Staffs line in some depth for a long time. As he is usually a mine of information I asked him about No.2 box and got this reply: "Both Norton Junction No.2 & No.3 boxes were not LNW in origin. They were constructed by the LMS partially in LNW style. I notice in the Eric Steele notes that he attributes the opening of No.2 as 1895 - sorry this is totally incorrect and is the same problem and trap that Bob Yate fell into. The frame date is correct as this was when the frame was installed at Rugby Loco. box! However, No.2 box and No.3 were much later LMS additions when the up yard was extended, and the Down yard built. I am chasing pictures of No.2 I dont recall either box being burnt out by vandalism (I'll stand corrected),but I think the timber upper frames were probably burnt. Again details for No.2 are vague - still standing Nov 1977, but for No.3 it was still standing in December 1983 while all around it the tracks were being ripped up. It was, however, in a total state of dereliction from around late 1981. It had gone by early 1984." The Bob Yate refrence is to the two part History of the South Staffordshire railway, which unfortunately contains numerous factual errors which detract from the accuracy of the book. Probaly rules Norton No.2 out as a suitable prototype anyway! BTW your listing was very useful Eric and please excuse the slight rant from Ian - it's what a little healthy obssesion does to us I am afraid! Regards Mike 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 18, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 18, 2012 Having had chance to review the information so far, next I need to look at construction methods. It's going to be fairly simple, so I'm looking at what is available without going to custom made etches and the like. Compromise without spoiling the look sometimes has to be considered. Firstly I'm looking at the planked sections. From the picture I think that there are 28 planks on the front. Assuming that Midland style 3.5" planking was used that would make the panel 98" long. Options for this would be to scribe plastic or card, or to use Evergreen sheet. They do planking at 50thou width which would be equivalent to about 26 planks for 98". Slaters do 1mm planking which would give 32 planks to the panel. Decisions, decisions. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beatty 139 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Yes, that might be an option; likewise getting it etched in brass. Might be a bit costly as a one-off though? The only issue would be having an approprate CAD drawing, as a one off laser cut job in 1/32 ply I would have thought it would come out between £10-15, our complete Midland signal box kits in 10mm scale start at only just over £100 Your quite right about mainstream etched brass, it would be killed on price by the cost of the photo tool, but there are other ways, a single sided etch produced using the laser to cut through a mask can produce a great scratch building aid (you would still need to cut the outline) or for a simple etch like the lower parts of the box home electronic type pcb etching methods can be used with great effect. Andy Mould Woodbury Models Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 19, 2012 "Both Norton Junction No.2 & No.3 boxes were not LNW in origin. They were constructed by the LMS partially in LNW style. I notice in the Eric Steele notes that he attributes the opening of No.2 as 1895 - sorry this is totally incorrect and is the same problem and trap that Bob Yate fell into. The frame date is correct as this was when the frame was installed at Rugby Loco. box! However, No.2 box and No.3 were much later LMS additions when the up yard was extended, and the Down yard built. I am chasing pictures of No.2 I know that Ellesmere Port was resignalled by the LMS but using a scheme started by the LNWR, so the cabins were built in LNWR Type 5 and opened in 1925, so are they LMS or LNWR ? A moot point, when was the first sod cut.. or the last brick laid. Perhaps Ian (Pell) could provide us with the dates of opening for the cabins, rather than simply dismissing Erics comments, present some further information perhaps ? I might be able to get some more information on them (as an off topic query) for him. Probaly rules Norton No.2 out as a suitable prototype anyway! We already had as it's a composite box, it looks to be an LNWR Type 5 style. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 19, 2012 I will stand corrected on No.2 box. From the picture it looks like a LNW Type 5 / early LMS build. The original notes have demolished pencilled on, so it had probably already disappered by then. The frame numbers were all taken from BR drawings ex-Crewe DS&TE Drawing Office which had survived various relocations and reorganisations. The frame number 2284 at No.3 box would be consistent with late LNW / early LMS as they had got up to about 2100 by the beginning of WW1, although frame numbers are probably more indicative of the sequence of orders than commissionings. There were also instances of where equipment destined for one job ended up on another due to change of priorities. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) For Dave, Eric and anybody else interested in Norton Junction I have had some more clarification from Ian: "In answer to the question, it must be understood that prior to 1927 there were only two boxes at Norton Junction; No.1 and No.2. As you can see below the old No.2, which itself seems to have arrived on the scene around 1902, was replaced by No.3 and became the shunter's cabin, while a "new" No.2 was introduced to serve the new "Down Empty Sidings". No.2 box was "new" at Norton Junction by 1927. The down empty sidings (13 in total) at No.2 were all new and included a small hump; there is a note “cabin top and apparatus transferred from Rugby Loco Cabin”. It was a 25 lever frame, girders for 15+10, with 20 working. and girders were provided. On the up side, the new sidings 7 to 16 and the existing 1 to 6 were fed from a remodelled fan. In all the “Up” loaded sidings now comprised of 1-15 loaded sidings, 16 crippled wagons. As was the norm, the sidings were numbered outwards from the running lines. The old No.2 SB, which was a signal cabin north of Highbridge, together with a ground frame (located where the new Norton Jcn No.3 was to be), was replaced by a new No.3. The lever frame was new, tappet frame no.2284 ordered 28.7.26 from Crewe Works. It was a 25 lever frame, girders for 15+10, with 20 working. Both boxes looked to all intense and purposes LNW, but they were constructed by the LMS. They had brick bases and timber upper frames with out side loos. The new No.2 box was signed off on the 22.9.1927, and the Down empty sidings from 12.10.1927. The extended and re-modelled Up loaded sidings followed on 17.10.1927. A further letter dated 31.12.1927 confirms completion of the "sidings accommodation" and so I think it is realistic to say that by Ocotober 1927 the works were complete and by January 1928 they were fully operational." So it seems that the latterday Norton No.2 was an LMS box but with stong LNWR origins.... Hope that's of interest Regards Mike Edited October 19, 2012 by mikeh 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted October 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 19, 2012 Sounds very much like it was similar to the Ellesmere Port project, probably(/possibly) planned by the LNWR and actually built by the LMS, no need to alter the signal boxes as the LMS hadn't come up with it's own standard yet. I have indirect access to original LNWR records, I will try and see what can be found, the frame for No.3 should be documented, as should a new No.2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mark Forrest Posted October 19, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 19, 2012 The only issue would be having an approprate CAD drawing, as a one off laser cut job in 1/32 ply I would have thought it would come out between £10-15, our complete Midland signal box kits in 10mm scale start at only just over £100 Your quite right about mainstream etched brass, it would be killed on price by the cost of the photo tool, but there are other ways, a single sided etch produced using the laser to cut through a mask can produce a great scratch building aid (you would still need to cut the outline) or for a simple etch like the lower parts of the box home electronic type pcb etching methods can be used with great effect. Andy Mould Woodbury Models Thanks Andy there are a few bits I've been considering looking at getting laser cut, etched or 3D printed either for BCB or for my next project. I really need to have a look at learning to use CAD. However, I bought a sheet of Evergreen 2mm planking this afternoon from KS Models in Stevenage - great shop and highly recommended (seriously the lengths/distances we go to for this project though!). Spacing looks to be a very close match, although I may run a cutter along the grooves to open them out a little to give a better match to the brass. I'm hoping the news here might simplify the next signal box I'll be building after this one: Wolverhampton Low Level station Autumn 1969 by loose_grip_99, on Flickr 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 19, 2012 The down empty sidings (13 in total) at No.2 were all new and included a small hump; there is a note “cabin top and apparatus transferred from Rugby Loco Cabin”. It was a 25 lever frame, girders for 15+10, with 20 working. and girders were provided. Thanks for the additions Mike. The frame number 1280 in my notes would have been consistent with being built in 1895, as I had 1203 as 1893, 1245 as 1894, 1326 as 1896 and 1373 as 1897. The box top at No.2 could well have been an LNW Type 4 from 1895 as I had recorded, but moved to its new location on a new base c1927. Regarding the old No2 box, was that the cabin that stood by the low hump on the other side of the road bridge from No.3? I also had a feeling that there was a crossover in the vicinity that wasn't on No.3 box, but I'm now trying to recall shunting a train there in about 1973/4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 19, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 19, 2012 ......... No.1 has oversail ... Norton Junction No.1 was a bit of a strange animal. . It did have an oversail, the sidings in front of it were very close. The "Clayhanger" or Walsall Wood Colliery Branch curved off immediately to the north of the box on the Up side. I think at least one of the sidings may have been a later addition, possibly part of the 1927 remodelling? Anyway, the front of the box base was set back about a foot behind standard. I don't know if that was original or a later alteration, but it meant that there was no room to get round the back of the locking. IIRC there were removeable panels in the front wall so that the back of the frame could be accessed from outside the box. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Sounds very much like it was similar to the Ellesmere Port project, probably(/possibly) planned by the LNWR and actually built by the LMS, no need to alter the signal boxes as the LMS hadn't come up with it's own standard yet. I have indirect access to original LNWR records, I will try and see what can be found, the frame for No.3 should be documented, as should a new No.2 Anything you can dig out Dave would be much appreciated Regards Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Thanks for the additions Mike. The frame number 1280 in my notes would have been consistent with being built in 1895, as I had 1203 as 1893, 1245 as 1894, 1326 as 1896 and 1373 as 1897. The box top at No.2 could well have been an LNW Type 4 from 1895 as I had recorded, but moved to its new location on a new base c1927. Regarding the old No2 box, was that the cabin that stood by the low hump on the other side of the road bridge from No.3? I also had a feeling that there was a crossover in the vicinity that wasn't on No.3 box, but I'm now trying to recall shunting a train there in about 1973/4. Certainly looks like that was the case. The old No.2 would have been the other side of the bridge. Regards Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2012 The story continues That journey in January 1966 was no train spotting trip, I can't remember much about the actual journey except that I copped a couple of brand new 86s at Crewe on the return. I was off to an interview to train as an Engineering Student in the CS&TE Department. I had received a letter telling me to report to the DS&TE Offices in Gresty Road and enclosing a free ticket. The principal gentlemen on the other side of the table were Harry Birchenough, an A.F. Bound recruit and sometime Chief S&T Draughtsman of the LMS, and Jim Fews who was in charge of resignalling for the electrification from Euston to Manchester. Someone must have tipped them off about me as they seemed to know quite a bit more than I put in my application letter. I suspect it was A.E. Matthews, ATA at Rugby, who was my Grandfather's boss and whom I had met on a couple of occasions. After about 15 minutes Mr Birchenough said “I think we've heard enough, (Mild panic)... when are you available to start?”...(Relief followed by euphoria). A few weeks later there was a medical, then I got the letter confirming the offer of employment with British Railways. 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted October 20, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 20, 2012 I can see a book coming on Eric! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chubber Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 More please, soon! Doug Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Anotheran Posted October 23, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 23, 2012 Thanks your help guys. and with clamps removed.... Looks really good, though I too am looking forward to seeing the curved one. What are the fascia boards actually glued to? I only see the PS, or are there some ply "tabs" in there or something like that that gives the fascia a harder link to the boards? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indomitable026 Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Looks really good, though I too am looking forward to seeing the curved one. What are the fascia boards actually glued to? I only see the PS, or are there some ply "tabs" in there or something like that that gives the fascia a harder link to the boards? There's some 3/4 by 3/4 timber screwed/nailed to the fascia and the top of the boards to give support. The curved bits are a bit of a non priority for me compared with all the lights/ light fascias and fiddle yards i've got to build for February, however when I get round to them they will just be thin ply laminated to the shape the curve. They are both at the back so they are non critical. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Anotheran Posted October 23, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 23, 2012 There's some 3/4 by 3/4 timber screwed/nailed to the fascia and the top of the boards to give support. Thanks Damian. I'm more of a wires person myself, but having seen the detailed step by step approach (and fantastic workmanship) on this thread (only brought to my attention by this month's BRM) I've decided to give the baseboards a go myself following this approach completely rather than part with more cash to get someone else to do them for me! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indomitable026 Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Thanks Damian. I'm more of a wires person myself, but having seen the detailed step by step approach (and fantastic workmanship) on this thread (only brought to my attention by this month's BRM) I've decided to give the baseboards a go myself following this approach completely rather than part with more cash to get someone else to do them for me! That's great news !! Let me know how you get on. Any questions - just shout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted October 24, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 24, 2012 Bill Bedford used to do etched name boards, not sure if he still does though, Mark couldn't find them - myself and a friend supplied Bill with the correct font information and he prodiced an etched name for our LMS BLT (Sacre Bleu !! - an LMS BLT) Stockton Heath Through the kind offices of Robin Whittle, York Modelmakers produced a set of laser-cut Romark signal box name boards for Callow Lane, and very nice they are, too. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 26, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2012 Sorry haven't had time to look back in the thread, but has the Smethwick Level Pump House at Galton been mentioned? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianb3174 Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 I wasn't born in the Black Country but come from Tipton and Gornal parentage. My Granddad worked at Dudley Port station LNWR/LMS/BR and is pretty much responsible for my interest in railways and my interest in this project. I consider the accent to be my mother tongue, having heard my parents roaring out loud to Aynuk & Alyi. Just don't associate us with Brummies 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted October 28, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 28, 2012 Any use: http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevewilliams7/4123359792/in/set-72157622725603897 http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevewilliams7/4123337514/in/set-72157622725603897 http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevewilliams7/5101902315/in/set-72157622367503506 Steve, the Lewis Street building is looking good for a spot at the front and we've someone keen to build it. http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevewilliams7/4123359792/in/set-72157622725603897 http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevewilliams7/4123345250/in/set-72157622725603897/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevewilliams7/4122580305/in/set-72157622725603897/ Love the gate area, the lovely green paint and the very basic box construction. Would you be ok if the photos were used in a build thread? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iL Dottore Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 STATUS REPORT The package of supplies arrived safely (thanks, 2manyspams) and I have started building the Oldbury Road structure. I have completed the internal framework and have already cut out the two long sides for the shell, with gable ends and lean-to to be done tonight. I'm using 60thou for the shell, which although a right PITA in regards to cutting out windows, will make for a very solid structure indeed. Unfortunately, no pics as of now, as I have misplaced the camera I use for model photos, but I promise pictures by tonight ('onest, Guv!) iD 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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