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GWR W3 CATTLE WAGON


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Right, here we have a Majestic models W3 cattle wagon. I bought it part built, the build so far is pretty good.

I do need a little help I know nothing of the prototype and my books are in England. The things I need help on are as follows

1 the previous builder has ABS grease axle boxes. not the usual GWR round top oil boxes.

2 for some reason he has filled the slots where the end and side diagonal stanchions are fitted. Where there any of these vans without them? Or is that a bad move by him?

3 Any clue of running numbers as there is none mentioned in the paper work I have.

4 Painting? Grey all over and white inside? Or was the roof white too?

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You can see from the photo's how far the build has got, and the missing stanchion.

I have had this sometime now, so it will be nice to get it up and running.

 

Thanks for any help in advance.

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1 the previous builder has ABS grease axle boxes. not the usual GWR round top oil boxes.

They were built with grease axleboxes. Oil axleboxes were a later addition.

 

2 for some reason he has filled the slots where the end and side diagonal stanchions are fitted. Where there any of these vans without them? Or is that a bad move by him?

Bad move by him. Flat strip diagonals from new, L angle later addition.

 

3 Any clue of running numbers as there is none mentioned in the paper work I have.

Only pic of one I have has running number 38171.

 

4 Painting? Grey all over and white inside? Or was the roof white too?

Grey exterior, white interior, the roof probably started out white. Remember prior to the early 1920's they would have been lime washed.

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1 the previous builder has ABS grease axle boxes. not the usual GWR round top oil boxes.

They were built with grease axleboxes. Oil axleboxes were a later addition.

 

2 for some reason he has filled the slots where the end and side diagonal stanchions are fitted. Where there any of these vans without them? Or is that a bad move by him?

Bad move by him. Flat strip diagonals from new, L angle later addition.

 

3 Any clue of running numbers as there is none mentioned in the paper work I have.

Only pic of one I have has running number 38171.

 

4 Painting? Grey all over and white inside? Or was the roof white too?

Grey exterior, white interior, the roof probably started out white. Remember prior to the early 1920's they would have been lime washed.

 

Thanks for that I can start to rebuild it now.

 

Sorry to be a pain. But any ideas about dates for the change to oil boxes and the adding of angle iron?

 

As there is only the grease boxes in the kit, I will have to make it as an earlier example, unless the boxes lasted for quite some time.

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From Atkins et al., 99 W3 were built in 1888. They were a small cattle wagon 13' 6" inside, 8' 6" wheelbase and were numbered 38102*-200. Their drawing shows it with oil boxes, but they also show a photo of the prototype iron bodied version, 38101, that was built in the same lot. This has grease boxes, single-sided lever brake and curved brake block hangers that hang down from the inner spring mounting pin. Russell has a distant photo of one in a rake with other diagrams.

 

Looks like the previous builder thought the X bracing and vertical T stanchions were alternatives. They weren't, both were used together and were there when built. New build vans were like this into the early years of the 20th century. IIRC, the later style with L angle diagonal braces from the top of the T stanchions to outer lower corners were used on new builds from around 1913. They also appear on some later rebuilds of the earlier pattern.

 

 

Nick

 

* Beware photos of 38102, they are usually of the wrongly-numbered iron bodied prototype large van (W1). It should have been numbered 38201.

 

edit: updated change date for X brace to L angle.

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There is a lengthy letter on GWR Cattle wagons by SC Bromhall in MRJ 26 page 308, where a lot of detail appears on things like the partitions & their locks, numbers, lettering styles, Non common user plates, and filling in slats above the brake lever, presumably to prevent lime from getting on shunters hands.

 

Kevin Martin

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There is a lengthy letter on GWR Cattle wagons by SC Bromhall in MRJ 26 page 308, where a lot of detail appears on things like the partitions & their locks, numbers, lettering styles, Non common user plates, and filling in slats above the brake lever, presumably to prevent lime from getting on shunters hands.

But, note that the W3 was the last small type cattle van produced by the GWR. These were, of course, never fitted with movable partitions with the Wright-Marillier locks. These were only added to W1, W5, etc which were large vans, after about 1903. Again, most of the other modifications to cattle vans would post-date the fitting of oil axle boxes.

 

Nick

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But, note that the W3 was the last small type cattle van produced by the GWR. These were, of course, never fitted with movable partitions with the Wright-Marillier locks. These were only added to W1, W5, etc which were large vans, after about 1903. Again, most of the other modifications to cattle vans would post-date the fitting of oil axle boxes.

 

Nick

 

Perhaps, but the letter is a follow on to the article in MRJ No. 25.

There is also a letter by PJA Taylor that dates photos of 2 Diagram W3 wagons, after discussion with Mr Russell.

 

Neither of these bits of information is available in the MRJ Index, so I thought it may be of interest and perhaps lost to those checking on that index..

 

Kevin Martin

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Perhaps, but the letter is a follow on to the article in MRJ No. 25.

There is also a letter by PJA Taylor that dates photos of 2 Diagram W3 wagons, after discussion with Mr Russell...

Now that is more interesting. What dates are the photos and do they show any detail?

 

Nick

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There is a lengthy letter on GWR Cattle wagons by SC Bromhall in MRJ 26 page 308, where a lot of detail appears on things like the partitions & their locks, numbers, lettering styles, Non common user plates, and filling in slats above the brake lever, presumably to prevent lime from getting on shunters hands.

 

Kevin Martin

 

Would there be any chance a scan of the article please, I have no way of getting to my copies of the MRJ.

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So I need to ad the end vertical tee stanchions, and the angle iron side diagonals. Thats OK I will make those.

The side diagonals may be a little more problematic. There's a photo on the dust jacket of my copy of Atkins et al. and in the original Slinn Great Western Way showing 38126 in left-hand small 'G.W.R' livery (presumably as built in 1888). Also in GWW is one of the large W1 type, no 38580, again probably as built, in the 1890s right-hand small 'G.W.R'. In both cases, the side diagonals are flat. Perhaps these should be compared with the Y2 Fruit van of 1890 which also had flat side diagonals.

 

However, Russell has photos of 38192 and 38195 in post-1921 16" GW livery both showing angle side bracing. 38195 has also received the later pattern upper side doors in this photo.

 

Nick

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Now that is more interesting. What dates are the photos and do they show any detail?

 

Nick

 

OK, PJA Taylor's letter states in part.

 

"I believe I can add to the information given in Table A (this table is in MRJ 25) regarding the dating of two of the Diagram W3 photographs, namely figs 43 & 45, which appeared in Great Western Wagons. In correspondence with Mr Russell, in 1972, he informed me that Fig. 43 stemmed from 1948 & Fig. 45 from 1947".

 

As far as detail is concerned of said photos is concerned, I have no idea. I'm not a GWR fan and so I don't have the GWW book & I wouldn't like to comment on a topic I know nothing about.

 

I hope this info is still of value to you.

 

Kevin Martin

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Thanks, Kevin, that's useful information. In fact, those are the photos of 38192 and 38195 that I referred to above. I'd guessed a mid-thirties date from the livery but, as at least one is marked 'cond' and is next to an iron mink in the later, post-1938, livery, those dates are quite believable. I hadn't realised any W3 had survived that long.

 

Nick

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Thanks for all the help so far.

 

I had a good look at the wagon, and decided as I needed to take the part of the angle strapping, it would be better to take it apart completly. From the photo you will see that it lost its arguement with the blowtorch.

I think it was the right thing to do, I would not of been happy with the way the roof would of sat.

I now have to make the vertical end tee sections. Plus half of the side angle braces. These are not in the parts I have but I have a photocopy of the fret, so I will cut out the appropriate parts and glue to some brass. I can adjust if there is any shrinkage in the copy.

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Just done a little today. It needed a little more remaking than I thought.

 

First off I soldered 3 lots of etch together and glued on the templates. I cut out the the diagonals for the sides the parts for the ends can wait for a while.

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I soldered the vertical door stanchions back in place, along with the diagonals that I made. This is when I found the rivited detail for the diagonals has been cut short by the original builder, so I found some 005" shim, and rivited up four.

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Next jobs will be to add sole bars and the rails either side of the doors. I am thinking this was not as complete as I thought. Mind you it was very cheap and it will look OK in the end ( I hope ).

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Back to the begining. I am now back to where I started, well a little further as all the angles and stanchions are fitted.

 

I am very pleased with the way it is coming together, and so pleased I started it again.

 

First the sides were finished with the rail and sole bar.

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I then fitted the end stanchions.

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Then the body was assembled.

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Now to make the roof detatchable and fit the underframe.

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I have now managed to get all the soldering done. I now think I am ready for a good scrub up and a coat of Acid 8.

 

The guard irons and and axle where lined up and soldered on. You will see that the axle boxes are on are not fixed I thought I would glue them after painting. Just me being lazy and not wanting to clean the treads.

 

The rest of the whitemetal castings where then added. I think it looks a whole lot better than I expected.

 

The roof being alluminium I had to glue some 0.7mm wire to the inside to make the clips to hold the roof on. It is not particulally pretty, but will not show from the usual viewing angle.

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Hopefully next post will be to do with the painting.

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