scot6p Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 I tried lining one of my 4mm loco's in BR using fox transfers but I made a right mess What is the best way to line them? Thanks. Len Cattley Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 40-something Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I havent lined a loco yet but done a few Maroon coaches. When I get round to doing a loco I plan to do the following, for instance on a tender: Add the corners first and leave to dry overnight Add the vertical parts, leave over night to dry Add the horizontal lining, cutting in to 2 or 3 lengths to make it more manageable Leave to dry overnight then varnish Hope this helps Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I recommend practice-practice-practice with draughtsman bow pens rather than dilleying about wth transfers. Everyone starts at the begining and once mastered you can pick and chose which railway to model......Try lining Beatrice with transfers with V's on the end of every wheel spoke! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 40-something Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 That is superb Coachmann, truly 'awesome' as the kids say! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Someone said it only took 10,000 hours to master any subject, so how hard could lining be? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted June 19, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 19, 2012 Complex lining isn't impossible with transfers. On the N Gauge Society website you'll find several LSWR + LBSCR locos which have been lined with transfers - over a 100 individual transfers in some cases: G Class Single C Class O2 Class G Class Terrier D3 Class D Class LSWR ? Class Happy modelling. Steven B. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Someone said it only took 10,000 hours to master any subject, so how hard could lining be? Grandad left me an elderly brass draughtsmans bow-compass when he died in 1962. One of his sons was also a draughtsman and took the rest of the equipment. Gran told me to put ink in it but I tried Humbrol paint and started lining out mine and other folks models straight away. Hard to believe it is 50 years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I line with transfers and it is not too hard. Patience and practise as always will help. Here is an N gauge auto tank that I have lined as per 1470 (the Ashburton engine for many years). Numberplates to follow once the NGS has them back in stock. It is not quite perfect in "cruel enlargement" but it is pretty good for a first attempt and looks good at normal viewing distance. Using Fox transfers, here is my procedure. 1. Prepare the area with a couple of coats of gloss varnish (prefferably johnsons klear) and allow to dry thoroughly. 2. Apply masking tape to give you a straight edge to work with. Lining transfers are floppy things, especially in N gauge. By applying masking tape just beside where the line will go, you can brush the transfer up against the straight edge. This is particularly important on lnog horizontal lines. 3. Apply the lines one at a time and aim to come up just short of the corners (this is for Fox who supply seprarate corner pieces). 4. Once the straight lines are in place, seal with another coat of klear and then allow to dry. 5. Next add the corner pieces. I leave these till last so that you can use the existing straight edges to ensure that the corner pieces are in the right place and are square (it is easier to get everything square if the corners go on last rather than first in my experience). 6. Seal again with varnish 7. If using lining that has 2 layers (e.g. the BR mixed traffic lining), apply the second layer in exactly the same way as the first, edges first and then corners. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
burgundy Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Karhedron suggested "Patience and practise as always will help." The third likely "p" is for profanity. Things do go wrong; with transfers it is usually fairly straighforward to undo the damage. 4mm scale Dapol Terrier bodies, given a makeover using lining transfers. Best wishes Eric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I would go along with coach on lining and use a bow pen. Although I am not as good as he. The colours, width and shapes are limitless. I have struggled with transfers, if you do get the corners lined up there is a tone difference due to the double thickness. I if but jointed there is shrinkage and the gap shows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 It's like a lot of things - you need the knack. I can't get on with Fox transfers as they just disintegrate on me. Others get excellent results as seen above. Mick B does a superb lining job on his LNER locos with transfers. I have a lining pen and am getting better with each vehicle I try. You need to find what suits you and stick with it. Just don't ever expect to be as good as Larry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 You need to find what suits you and stick with it. All of modelling perfectly summed up in a simple sentence. Often there is more than one way to good results so don't be afraid to experiment with different techniques. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I read this thread hoping I might find some comments specifically on using Fox transfers. No, mainly advice to use lining pens instead. I can line LNWR carriage livery using a bowpen (and tubular nob pens), but have never attempted a loco. I have been rather daunted by doing the curved bits, especially the charper corners. This despite reading Ian Rathbone's excellent book. I have had satisfactory results in the past with SMS and Kemco waterslide but SMS are no longer available. I thought that Kemco were also NLA, but a quick search has turned them up. HMRS Pressfix (ex PC) seem to have a shelf life, after which I find them difficult to use, but I'm not that keen on them anyway. Waterslide transfers have good "adjustability" when handled with care (some professional painters make their own w/s transfers for boilerbands for that reason). So some definitive information on the Fox transfers would have been good, but I'll order some new Kemco for old times sake. Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 So some definitive information on the Fox transfers would have been good, but I'll order some new Kemco for old times sake. Check out my first post to this thread. It has a guide to my experiences using fox lining transfers on a loco and a picture of the finished article to give an idea of what can be acheived. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Personal experience of Fox transfers (my own only and to be taken as such): Coach lining very fragile and snapped at even the slightest attempt to pull it straight if it deviated or wrinkled; Coach lettering (LNER) out of register and looked way too pale. Loco lining; was going to buy a loco pack for the B17 but had been put off by the previous coach lining episode and then noted that the cab lining in the pack allegedly fitted both B17 and B2, which had quite different cab sidesheets. So I went no further. Their awful website also puts me off. I now use a lining pen and HMRS pressfix (which you can use as Methfix if they deteriorate, but I have sheets over 10 years old which still work fine). Now can someone else with a positive experience of Fox step forward to give a balance? The results shown above in 2mm are certainly very good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I used some Fox transfers in the 1990's when doing modern image diesels for various projects in conjunction with Rail magazine, Regional Railways and others. I will just say they did the job - in the end. As soon as they were slid off their backing sheet they curled at the edges. They were difficult to apply and merely strenthened my opinion that the Brits are useless at producing waterslide transfers. I say this because I used American Microscale waterslide decals with no problems whatsoever when I was into the Santa Fe and Union Pacific railroads in the late 1980s. If this country had decals of the quality of Microscale we would be racing. I should add that this is a reference to waterslide. Peter Chatham's/HMRS 'Methfix' transfers know no peers as they are simply the best, but waterslide transfers are useful for covering large areas and for lining if produced properly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I read this thread hoping I might find some comments specifically on using Fox transfers. No, mainly advice to use lining pens instead. I can line LNWR carriage livery using a bowpen (and tubular nob pens), but have never attempted a loco. I have been rather daunted by doing the curved bits, especially the charper corners. This despite reading Ian Rathbone's excellent book. I have had satisfactory results in the past with SMS and Kemco waterslide but SMS are no longer available. I thought that Kemco were also NLA, but a quick search has turned them up. HMRS Pressfix (ex PC) seem to have a shelf life, after which I find them difficult to use, but I'm not that keen on them anyway. Waterslide transfers have good "adjustability" when handled with care (some professional painters make their own w/s transfers for boilerbands for that reason). So some definitive information on the Fox transfers would have been good, but I'll order some new Kemco for old times sake. Jol For the lining with pen you can make a plasticard template to draw around. For boiler bands I prefer not to have them on the model and to use magic tape by scotch. If you lightly sand with fine wet and dry then paint and line on this. After cutting out these fix on very nicely. Less hassle than water slide. If you can line coaches with a bow pen I am sure you could do a loco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jukebox Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Now can someone else with a positive experience of Fox step forward to give a balance? The results shown above in 2mm are certainly very good. I used Fox's loco specific pack for my 4mm DJH Duke of Gloucester last year. I agree with the other posters who say they are very fragile decals, and that Microscale (from the USA) are a benchmark which others should be aiming for. The footplate lining with its large carrier-film-to-lining ratio was a challenge - but cut into shorter sections, I was able to get it where it needed to be. The late BR logo definition was disappointing - but at normal viewing distances makes no difference, and the thin carrier film settled down wonderfully over the tender rivets. Plenty of water, a nice soft paintbrush, and a fine pointed scalpel knife certainly help get things in place, too. For what it's worth, the Fox product did the job, there was enough spare material to allow me to have a learning curve, and they look, to my eyes, a good match when parked next to a Bachmann 9F, for instance: They are not state-of-the-art, but can be made to work with good surface preparation (a gloss finish to minimise the risk of frosting), use of decal setting soloution, practice and patience. My advice would be to keep trying and you will eventually get the knack. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 40-something Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I've used Fox lining on coaches as said above and have had great results. The trick I found was to cut them into short strips about 40mm long and lay them that way. A well prepared surface helps no end though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atso Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I've been playing with a lining pen based on previous posts on the subject by Coachman and others. I have to say that after a few hours practice (mainly on some repainted Dapol Gresley coaches) I went on to tackle the red lining on my K3 build. The boiler bands were made using the Scotch tape method but thanks to N15class for the tip on lightly sanding the tape, that'll make it easier not to remove the previous paint while lining them (they're only 0.4mm wide!). I'm quite happy with the results, the picture is a rather crule enlargement - this is N gauge! The numbers are Fox Transfers... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted June 21, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 21, 2012 There are alternatives to Fox - Model Master for example. Happy modelling. Steven B. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 There are alternatives to Fox - Model Master for example. ModelMaster have the advantage that you do not need to overlay multiple layers. The downside is that I find the carrier film is thicker and more obtrusive than the Fox offering (although this might actually be an advantage in terms of keeping the lining straight). I believe it is possible to remove the ModelMaster carrier film once it has fully dried and leave the transfer behind but I have not tried this myself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scot6p Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 Just lined the boiler which was pretty good, mind you I think that was the easy bit. The hard bit is going to be the tender, just have to mark it out then cut it out in parts and line it up as I go along. I think you have to go very carefully and make sure you line up all the lines as you go. If you could get hold of descent lining pens I would have a go at that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyC Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 I've never used Fox transfer lining as I buy Model Master. When using waterslide lining I follow the method given in Ian Rathbone's book on painting and lining to avoid double thickness at the joins. This is; overlap them, then carefully cut through both layers using a scalpel rolled over the lining. Using a damp brush carefully tease out the cut ends and you should have a perfect butt joint. To help with the rolling up problem I lay the dry transfer on the model and dampen it with Micro Scale 'Micro Set' using a brush, it doesn't stop it trying to curl, but it's more controllable. Below is an A2/1 tender lined using Model Masters 8870 'Finescale Lining' Jeremy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scot6p Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 Here is my finished loco, let us know what you think. Regards Len Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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