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Dock Green

7mm layout 1950s ER London O gauge LNER




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#51 chaz

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 10:46

.... the bendability of various bits is definitely on the decrease.
Dave

I have found myself in a restricted position under a baseboard, unable to move....not good. You know you have a problem when you have to move a leg with your hand.... :O

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#52 shortliner

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 10:51

I have found myself in a restricted position under a baseboard, unable to move....not good. You know you have a problem when you have to move a leg with your hand.... :O

Chaz


It's when you are in that awkwardly restricted position and you get a cramp in one or both of your legs - Yeeeeehaaaa! :O :O :nono: You learn awfully quick that it ain't a good idea!

#53 chaz

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:16

It's when you are in that awkwardly restricted position and you get a cramp in one or both of your legs - Yeeeeehaaaa! :O :O :nono: You learn awfully quick that it ain't a good idea!


Oh yes, Jack, been there - hence the stands.....

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#54 chaz

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:27

I've put the canal to one side while I decide on how to do the water so I have moved on to the baseboard at the other end to warehouse. This will have some track inset into a roadway of stone setts. I spent a little time checking through books to find some reference with limited success and then a fortnight ago I went to the "Railway Day" (?) at Amberley Museum and came across this short section...

Posted Image

...nice that it includes two different sizes. I didn't have a rule with me so I put the leaflet/ticket into the picture below giving me a way of scaling and working out the sizes of the setts.

Posted Image

Chaz
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#55 chaz

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 06:55

I am thinking of using DAS for my setts, however I've never used this material before, so I will do some test pieces first. One thing I need to try out is whether to cut the pattern of setts in the DAS while is is still wet or when it has dried, or a mixture of both....There is some useful advice and guidance about using DAS to produce stonework in Dave Rowe's "Architectural Modelling in 4mm Scale" which I will study whilst I do my test pieces. He says that he uses DAS as little as 0.5mm thick. If I glue card between the rails and either side of the track I can economise on DAS - I have quite a large area to cover.

I'm thinking of two jigs to help me apply the DAS. The first a piece of plasticard with notches filed in the edge to clear the chairs which can be used to space the DAS away from the rail leaving the flangeway clear.... and the other a piece with two very shallow notches that will slide along the rail tops and help me get a flat surface between the rails, slightly below rail level - just enough to ensure that wheels are not lifted from the rail. Dave Rowe suggests talc to prevent DAS sticking to tools.

The piece of inset track I photographed at Amberley does not have a "checkrail" - just rectangular setts (they look brick-sized to me, although I have yet to scale the photos) laid parallel to the rails, I will do mine this way. A picture on page 87 of Bob Essery's "Railway Operation for the Modeller" shows this pattern in the goods yard at Heaton Norris. On page 71 of the same book is another picture showing a large area of square stone setts in the goods yard at Stewarts Lane, suggesting that the use of setts was very widespread. Enough encouragement for me!

Chaz

Edited by chaz, 29 July 2012 - 06:59 .


#56 rcf

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 12:06

I have used Das on all my layouts, whether that is a recommendation or not I don't know, but I have always scribed it dry.
Personally I don't think you would get the definition you would want scribing it wet. I lay it and give it at least 24 hours to harden. You can then sand it lightly if necessary and scribe it. You can get it down to a thin layer but Dave Rowe was talking about 4mm, but in 7mm I think you need more definition and deeper joints and if the layer is too thin you will be trying to scribe into the base material if not very careful. I would also be wary of laying it on card as the drying process might cause distortions. It does spread further than you might think, I have used only half a large pack to do all the stonework on Osney. Don,t forget to lay the clay on a thin layer of PVA glue to ensure it sticks down well.

Hope this helps and I'm looking forward to watching your progress.

Cheers Rob

#57 N15class

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 13:41

I have not used DAS but I do not think you need it very thick, mainly because a scribe .053mm deep is an inch. which is more than is required. The used setts to get a fairly smooth hard surface. If made to bumpy the horses and people would forever be turning ankles.
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#58 chaz

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 16:13

I have used Das on all my layouts, whether that is a recommendation or not I don't know, but I have always scribed it dry.
Personally I don't think you would get the definition you would want scribing it wet. I lay it and give it at least 24 hours to harden. You can then sand it lightly if necessary and scribe it. You can get it down to a thin layer but Dave Rowe was talking about 4mm, but in 7mm I think you need more definition and deeper joints and if the layer is too thin you will be trying to scribe into the base material if not very careful. I would also be wary of laying it on card as the drying process might cause distortions. It does spread further than you might think, I have used only half a large pack to do all the stonework on Osney. Don,t forget to lay the clay on a thin layer of PVA glue to ensure it sticks down well.

Hope this helps and I'm looking forward to watching your progress.

Cheers Rob


Thanks for that advice Rob, much appreciated. I will give both wet impression and dry scribing a try - it may be that a light impression from a press tool that marks out an area followed up with the scribing technique will be a good method - I'm a convinced "try it out and see" person. You will notice in my photo that the gaps between the setts (what would be called mortar courses in brickwork) look quite generous.
I note your comment about thickness - I wasn't intending to go quite as thin as 0.5mm but it's reassuring to know that very thin layers will adhere without cracking. I will coat the surface with PVA as you suggest. I will test thoroughly before moving on to the yard surface on Dock Green, and that includes the card packing, which will itself be glued down firmly with PVA. WTS

Chaz

Edited by chaz, 29 July 2012 - 16:20 .


#59 chaz

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 16:24

I have not used DAS but I do not think you need it very thick, mainly because a scribe .053mm deep is an inch. which is more than is required. The used setts to get a fairly smooth hard surface. If made to bumpy the horses and people would forever be turning ankles.


Good point. However, as so often with models, it's often better to do what looks right rather than follow slavishly what is exactly to scale. They are not always the same thing!

Chaz

#60 Phil Traxson

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 16:38

Have to say I cheated with setts for my 7mm scale narrow gauge dockside layout and used Slaters 4mm dressed walling stone. Unfortunately I have no photo's of the painted test piece but I do have one or two of it being laid and ready for filler and painting. Unfortunately due to an impending house move it is now packed away and slow progress has become non at all so painting will probably not happen until next year! But it might just give you some ideas.

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#61 chaz

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 20:17

Have to say I cheated with setts for my 7mm scale narrow gauge dockside layout and used Slaters 4mm dressed walling stone.


I wouldn't say that was cheating Phil. However DAS appeals to me because it allows more variety in the pattern, spacing, etc. I will give it a go but embossed plastic sheet could be a useful fall back.....

Chaz

#62 DLT

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 21:37

I use tile-grout for my stonework; the cheapest stuff in a tub from B&Q (actually adhesive & grout all in one) this sort of stuff http://www.diy.com/n...to-0-8m-9277194
It has certain advantages over modelling clays.

I spread it on up to about 1mm thick with a pallette knife and leave it to start drying. (if you try to form or scribe it when wet you just make a ghastly mess)
When its half dry (firm but not absolutely hard) I rub my fingers over it to give it a rough texture and remove the spreading marks. You can start carving at this point if you wish. The glory of it is that when its really dry and hard, you can wet it slightly and it softens sufficiently to be carved beautifully with a sharp scriber. This means of course that if you have large areas to carve, you dont have to drive yourself mad by doing it all in one go before your material gets too hard, you can do a bit at a time.

If you try and carve it when dry you will just blunt your tools.


Posted Image


A ready-made product is the Wills Scenic series moulded plastic sheets, SSMP204 Granite Setts, see http://www.gaugemast...&strType=#5 sixth item down.
Stated to be 4mm scale they look grossly overscale to me, but perfect for 7mm. I've used them a lot for pavements etc.

Hope this helps,
Cheers, Dave.
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#63 Red Devil

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 21:44

4mm rather than 7mm, but for setts I used plaster, this is ready to use plaster from Wickes, which is grey, it will also take a colour wash quite nicely. I tried air drying clays but found cracking a problem, the plaster hasn't suffered at all even being knocked about.

blogentry-7067-126807968395_thumb.jpg

Generally speaking Granite setts are approx 9x3 inches, but as a natural product can vary considerably, sandstone setts tend to be much larger up to 18x9 inches and anywhere inbetween, not only do I get to scribe them in 4mm, I also lay them in real life.........!

Edited by Red Devil, 29 July 2012 - 21:52 .

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#64 cromptonnut

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:19

Might be....


I assume you've already found http://www.scalelink...ed_figures.html Omen - British policeman - pre 1947 Ref: OMA016P?

#65 chaz

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 15:33

There was a very interesting article on modelling water by Philip Harvey (IIRC) in MRJ some time ago. I wonder if a piece of green perspex could be found whether that placed on a black base would do the trick. PVA or clear silicon could be used to add any details wanted. My experiment with PVA for an area of water was not sucess as it lifted and went milky.
Don


I found the article you refer to Don. it is indeed by Philip Harvey and is in issue #164. It's an interesting read, detailing several attempts (some of them he notes as failures) to portray water. In his closing sentence he says that he intends to redo his canal with a painted surface with several layers of varnish added. In the article he rejects clear acrylic as unconvincing. So next task is to find, or mix, that shade of yellowy green that might be called "opaque canal" :scratchhead:

Chaz

Edited by chaz, 30 July 2012 - 15:41 .


#66 chaz

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 15:38

I assume you've already found http://www.scalelink...ed_figures.html Omen - British policeman - pre 1947 Ref: OMA016P?


Yes indeed, but thanks for the link. Unfortunately his uniform is out of period for Dock Green - late fifties/early sixties - but he might do at a pinch. I'm not an expert on the constabulary in London, so I don't know how much the uniform changed.

EDIT - SILLY ME I just found....

Posted Image
Omen - British policeman, post 1947 Ref: OMA064P

now, he would be ideal.

chaz

Edited by chaz, 30 July 2012 - 15:54 .

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#67 chaz

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 15:44

4mm rather than 7mm, but for setts I used plaster, this is ready to use plaster from Wickes, which is grey, it will also take a colour wash quite nicely. I tried air drying clays but found cracking a problem, the plaster hasn't suffered at all even being knocked about.


That's a huge area of setts, and looks very neat. I'm impressed.

Chaz

#68 chaz

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 15:47

I use tile-grout for my stonework; the cheapest stuff in a tub from B&Q (actually adhesive & grout all in one) this sort of stuff http://www.diy.com/n...to-0-8m-9277194
It has certain advantages over modelling clays.

I spread it on up to about 1mm thick with a pallette knife and leave it to start drying. (if you try to form or scribe it when wet you just make a ghastly mess)
When its half dry (firm but not absolutely hard) I rub my fingers over it to give it a rough texture and remove the spreading marks. You can start carving at this point if you wish. The glory of it is that when its really dry and hard, you can wet it slightly and it softens sufficiently to be carved beautifully with a sharp scriber. This means of course that if you have large areas to carve, you dont have to drive yourself mad by doing it all in one go before your material gets too hard, you can do a bit at a time.

If you try and carve it when dry you will just blunt your tools.


Posted Image


A ready-made product is the Wills Scenic series moulded plastic sheets, SSMP204 Granite Setts, see http://www.gaugemast...&strType=#5 sixth item down.
Stated to be 4mm scale they look grossly overscale to me, but perfect for 7mm. I've used them a lot for pavements etc.

Hope this helps,
Cheers, Dave.


Thanks Dave. I have used the Wills cobbles for a 7mm layout in the past. As the sheets aren't that big I ended up with a lot of joints. Still, I agree with you, they seem to scale just about right for 7mm.

Chaz

Edited by chaz, 30 July 2012 - 15:53 .


#69 DLT

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 16:27

4mm rather than 7mm, but for setts I used plaster, this is ready to use plaster from Wickes, which is grey, it will also take a colour wash quite nicely. I tried air drying clays but found cracking a problem, the plaster hasn't suffered at all even being knocked about.

blogentry-7067-126807968395_thumb.jpg

Generally speaking Granite setts are approx 9x3 inches, but as a natural product can vary considerably, sandstone setts tend to be much larger up to 18x9 inches and anywhere inbetween, not only do I get to scribe them in 4mm, I also lay them in real life.........!

That VERY effective Mr. Devil, how did you scribe it so accurately?
Thanks,
Dave.

#70 DLT

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 16:42

On the subject of still water, I've used the classic varnish method.
The flat plywood bed was painted dark grey, sanded as smooth as pos, and painted again. I then applied several coats of coloured varnish, Dark Oak in this case, which gives a good deep green/brown finish. This was followed by several coats of clear high-gloss varnish till the required finish was achieved. (and in places I can still see the grain....) Its meant to be a slow-moving river, but a lot of people think its a canal; I should have added some pva ripples before varnishing.
I used "proper" varnish, Ronseal Hardglaze rather than this quick-drying acrylic stuff. By the way, I've actually not tried the quick-drying stuff, is it any good?

Posted Image

I found it impossible to keep the dust off while drying, and I still think it could have done with a few more coats.
Although judging by the sticky fingerprints I'm constantly cleaning off, where exhibition visitors have prodded it to see if its wet, it seem to be a success!

Cheers,
Dave.

PS I'll stop hi-jacking your thread now...
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#71 Red Devil

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 20:19

That VERY effective Mr. Devil, how did you scribe it so accurately?
Thanks,
Dave.


Practice! Just done with a steel rule and a darning needle, to be honest if you're modelling a tram system scribing setts is pretty much the same as ballasting, like anything else you don't start off good!
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#72 Donw

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 22:27

Some of the water based quick drying varnishes look somewhat milky in the tin it doesn't seem to affect a thin coat but I do not know about multiple coats. Not only that but it it not a lot of use as a sealant either give me the polyurethane hardglaze for indoor use or one of the yacht varnishes for outdoor.
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#73 chaz

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 07:52

On the subject of still water, I've used the classic varnish method.
The flat plywood bed was painted dark grey, sanded as smooth as pos, and painted again. I then applied several coats of coloured varnish, Dark Oak in this case, which gives a good deep green/brown finish. This was followed by several coats of clear high-gloss varnish till the required finish was achieved. (and in places I can still see the grain....) Its meant to be a slow-moving river, but a lot of people think its a canal; I should have added some pva ripples before varnishing.
I used "proper" varnish, Ronseal Hardglaze rather than this quick-drying acrylic stuff. By the way, I've actually not tried the quick-drying stuff, is it any good?

Posted Image

I found it impossible to keep the dust off while drying, and I still think it could have done with a few more coats.
Although judging by the sticky fingerprints I'm constantly cleaning off, where exhibition visitors have prodded it to see if its wet, it seem to be a success!

Cheers,
Dave.

PS I'll stop hi-jacking your thread now...


I will be happy if my canal looks anything like as good as this!

So a piece of painted board (MDF doesn't have any grain...) with lots of varnish layers it is......but my search is still on for the correct colour shade for an urban canal (yours looks excellent for a river). My part of Hampshire is not blessed wiith canals - it's rather a long time since the Itchen Navigation had any water in it! (or rather the bits with water still in have reverted to being part of the river....) Maybe a Google and a look in the library for canal books.....WTS

Chaz

Edited by chaz, 31 July 2012 - 07:55 .


#74 DLT

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 10:03

Try various canals on Google Maps.
The colour of the water will depend on the area and what's polluting it. My memory of the Trent & Mersey Canal is that its the colour of cold tea, born out by this image http://goo.gl/maps/szqP
Most others are much cleaner!
Cheers, Dave.

#75 chaz

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 18:35

Try various canals on Google Maps.
The colour of the water will depend on the area and what's polluting it. My memory of the Trent & Mersey Canal is that its the colour of cold tea, born out by this image http://goo.gl/maps/szqP
Most others are much cleaner!
Cheers, Dave.


Good suggestion Dave. Not sure what would be polluting the Grand Union in North London, apart from the odd pram and dead moggie.......

Chaz












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