298 Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Here's a poll to judge the modelling answers to what seems to be the most popular question asked of OHLE-prototype layouts, is the overhead live...? If I had a pound for every time I've been asked it, either of the large 4mm scale club layouts I've been involved with, or my smaller HO scale Interurban layouts, I'd have enough money to... (insert topical quip here). The thing that has surprised me is after dozens of pages and a few magazine reviews I've seen of the Bachmann 85, I've yet to notice a single comment refering to the lack of a changeover switch or even the ability to easily wire the loco for it's supposed "authentic" method of current collection. I could understand why It would have been a valuable feature in the days of old (before DCC), and there might be some element of prototypical accuracy to have a sparky running from the overhead (my first OHLE modelling was on a school OO layout with a Hornby 86 running under a length of tensioned single core copper wire that had been stripped of it's insulation), but to be honest, I've found then and since that it isn't reliable enough for it's intended use, and since you can't actually see how power is transferred to the loco, has little benefit. Over to you.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 The same thing happens, but to a lesser extent with 3rd 3rd/4th rail layouts - however unlike OHLE I have yet to see a working 3rd 3rd/4th rail system in 2mm or 4mm. IMO, does it matter as electricity is invisible apart from arcing which can easily be faked with LEDS. Having working OHLE system might have had some benefits before the advent of DCC, however now it would be just a case of I can make it work, so I will and .................? X F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted July 14, 2012 Author Share Posted July 14, 2012 The same thing happens, but to a lesser extent with 3rd 3rd/4th rail layouts - however unlike OHLE I have yet to see a working 3rd 3rd/4th rail system in 2mm or 4mm. IMO, does it matter as electricity is invisible apart from arcing which can easily be faked with LEDS. Having working OHLE system might have had some benefits before the advent of DCC, however now it would be just a case of I can make it work, so I will and .................? X F Graham Clark's P4 "Effingham South" (now owned by Gordon H of this parish) had live 3rd Rail for constant lighting in some EMU's, I recall it worked fairly well but some form of "stay alive" capacitor would have been useful to ensure an uninterrupted flicker-free supply. I remember operating it at a show and hearing a conversation between two punters, saying it wasn't a very good layout because the builder hadn't bothered to conceal some of the wiring under the baseboard (I presume they were talking about the bridging wires between 3rd rail expansion gaps). It just goes to show that some people have more of an opinion than knowledge, hence why I posed the question in the first place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Well the common question asked of me is actually worded, "do the overhead wires work?" It is the most annoying question at exhibitions ever. I always answer "well they work in that they are tensioned correctly and the pantograph runs along them as per the real trains, if you mean does power go into the loco through them then no". You see their face drop and give a look of "well thats just rubbish then" some actually then say, "Why not? It would be much better if they did!" It actually would not be much better it would increase complexity of building the layout (extra OHLE for the fiddle yards where there is none) and wiring (the complexities of making the wire one polarity or the other and having locos only one way around to compensate) and running (both the above reasons, meaning locos can only run one way around and the OHLE getting in the way of stock swopping in the fiddles). All this can be erased without trace by simply having the OHLE dead, which visually makes no difference at all. I wouldn't entertain not running the pan on the wires but passing current through it? No need. Cav Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Well I am old school dc, and my OLE when completed will be live. I will even be using relcos on the OLE to ensure that if there is any genuine sparking, then the sparks will be enhanced as the relco pumps out the higher voltage! Currently about 1/4 of the wiring layout is complete. It also has the advantage of constant lighting in the coaches, as they will all pick up from the track. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted July 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 15, 2012 At shows we just wait for the question, it's even taken over 3 hours before someone asks it! I just explain that it makes it easier to access train in the sidings without having to wire up that too, also that it would need proper tensioning and it would be too much of a liability for a show as damage could stop the layout dead for a time. Most think that makes sense and the occasional one who thinks that makes it less realistic is gently advised that at least they run on electric unlike all the steam and diesel locos on the other layouts and at the end of the day they are models and we are just playing trains! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 It is strange that nobody asks if steam or diesel loco's are prototypically powered, surely an electric loco, wherever it gets the juice from, is more realistic? Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 It just goes to show that some people have more of an opinion than knowledge, hence why I posed the question in the first place. A somewhat arrogant and unnecessarily rude comment! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 A somewhat arrogant and unnecessarily rude comment! XF I think the comment was about some exhibition goers rather than any comments within the topic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted July 15, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 15, 2012 At shows we just wait for the question,......... ...always asked when out with Brian's Quai 87 regarding the shuttle tram...and the triple guage Axalp. We are often obliged to prove it by tapping the pan downwards so it stops! I'd be interested to find out if anyone has live overhead in N / 2mm. I've been contemplating it for an old layout that I'm thinking of resurrecting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 My layout has working third rail. Having live third rail or overhead is an excellent extra source of power for locos, adding to their reliability. I think most don't bother making their catenary live because it takes too much effort to supply a continuous live run around the layout. Having overhead wires with a pantograph not quite touching them looks utterly ridiculous as does having wires and a pantograph in closed position. If it happens on the prototype and it's possible in model form, why not energise your wires? Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I think the comment was about some exhibition goers rather than any comments within the topic. Hi Andy - I am willing to accept that i may have misjudged context of the reply. Thanks XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 My layout has working third rail. Having live third rail or overhead is an excellent extra source of power for locos, adding to their reliability. I think most don't bother making their catenary live because it takes too much effort to supply a continuous live run around the layout. Having overhead wires with a pantograph not quite touching them looks utterly ridiculous as does having wires and a pantograph in closed position. If it happens on the prototype and it's possible in model form, why not energise your wires? Simon I refer you to the comment I made earlier. It actually would not be much better it would increase complexity of building the layout (extra OHLE for the fiddle yards where there is none) and wiring (the complexities of making the wire one polarity or the other and having locos only one way around to compensate) and running (both the above reasons, meaning locos can only run one way around and the OHLE getting in the way of stock swopping in the fiddles). All this can be erased without trace by simply having the OHLE dead, which visually makes no difference at all. I wouldn't entertain not running the pan on the wires but passing current through it? No need. Cav Cav Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 A somewhat arrogant and unnecessarily rude comment! XF My apologies to all for creating the confusion in the first place. Glad its all sorted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted July 15, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 15, 2012 I recall seeing a layout with 'live' overhead that used brass rod or strip in the fiddle yard attached to wood strips that could be lifted out for access. I can't recall where or when but I think it was a tramway layout and it might have been on the continent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Hi Andy I have a standard answer for this, "can't you tell?". Tends to get people flummoxed when they realise they can't and it actually makes no difference. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Scare em away !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 If it happens on the prototype and it's possible in model form, why not energise your wires? I can offer several reasons why I dont It makes dcc more awkward - your locos need to be a certain way round or have some sort of switching. we would have to electrify nearly a km of fiddleyard. Overhead gets in the way making the fiddleyard pretty much unusable (third rail doesn't have this problem) Overhead adds height to the fiddleyard (again third rail doesnt have this problem) almost doubling the storage space it takes up. Overhead has to be continuous while third rail can be (and is) gapped. This means there's no extra considerations in design of a third rail layout, there is in overheard and it can drastically impact set up time Since all of the overhead is connected together (unlike third rail where the rails are isolated) it effectively becomes one massive section. Thus an electrical fault shuts the whole layout down. in my case with 7 scale miles on the scenic section alone that's a huge section with a lot of energy through .25mm wires. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dullsteamer Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Having settled on a simple design for a layout that I can exhibit, I'm going for option #3, dead OHW with pans touching the wire. Partly for the very sensible reasons given by RBE above, and partly because I can see no benefit in having live overhead with DCC. Slightly OT, but my candidate for the "most annoying question at exhibitions ever" relates to my choice of prototype. My club has a generic HO North American-style layout called Kelly River, and late in the day of it's last exhibition outing I was running some Japanese locos and stock for a bit of a change. A bloke asked me where my trains were from, and I told him they were models of JNR and Meitetsu trains. "No, you're wrong", he replied, and proceeded to tell me that EVERYONE knows that ALL Japanese model trains are N gauge, so mine must be something else, probably European... True story. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 We had someone tell us that 150001 shouldn't be on the layout as it was scrapped. He was adamant and when we showed him a picture of it taken that very week he decided it was scrapped then rebuilt! Unbelievable!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dullsteamer Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Oh, I believe it. What did 298 say, "Some people have more of an opinion than knowledge"? Very true, too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Shorting out both rails is fine IF you are not running diesels too. As for isolation sections, I am talking about scale overhead not out of the box stuff. Perhaps you can suggest a wire than can join overhead together that can take the tension required, resist the scraping effect of the pantographs, is non conductive and is is 0.25mm in diameter. If you can perhaps then you can suggest how this is attached bearing in mind those factors need to apply to the joint too and not look out of scale. (factor in also that it turns all of your structures, masts, gantries etc into not something you can solder together but something that requires the same sort of composite construction that also has to withstand the tensions involved.) Once you have figured all that out, ask yourself if all that is worth it to have live overhead? I have done a lot of study and put a lot of thought into this, i can assure you my comment was far from uninformed. I have to admit though I have thought about electrifying the sidings outside of the signal box just so that I can say some is. Having said that a few yards of track and a point doesnt really prove much Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted July 15, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 15, 2012 Before I heard of DCC, I was prepared to have live OHLE and third rail on my layout in order to provide power for train lighting. Using DC, if one makes the OHLE/3rd rail a constant positive voltage then it is possible to return the train lighting circuit via a diode to each rail to avoid shorting and or having locos only one way round. But I do beleive that DCC makes the application of live model OHLE/3rd rail obsolete! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Overhead has to be continuous while third rail can be (and is) gapped. This means there's no extra considerations in design of a third rail layout, there is in overheard and it can drastically impact set up time Jim There was a gap in the OHL at Hitchin recently, there was a video of it on here. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I refer you to the comment I made earlier. Cav I totally disagree for the reasons I stated earlier. Most continental layouts using overhead are wired throughout; if all the major European manufacturers produce locos with working pantographs why not use them? It seems logical to me. You like dummies I like working models; it's as simple as that. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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