georgeT Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Hi, l have got a Fowler 3,500 tender, and it is covered with rivets, l cannot find a photo of one anywhere, l was hoping that someone could shine a light as to what was the loco number was that had one of these tenders fitted ? george Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 There was some variation in the rivetted Fowler 3500 gallon tenders, do you have a photo? Mostly, they were fitted to Stanier 2-6-0s, some Patriots, some later 2Ps and 0-8-0 7Fs, and I've seen a claim that some found their way on to 4Fs in later BR days Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 (edited) Also Crabs and Jubillees, but you'll need to check photos to see which locos had rivetted or welded rivetted (but not visibly) at any particular time. Edited August 5, 2012 by stuartp Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulleidnutter Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Im sure they found their way behind some Stanier 8fs as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 (edited) Im sure they found their way behind some Stanier 8fs as well. They did but my understanding is that these were a rather different type. A batch of ten, initially paired with Jubilees, and described by Jenkinson & Essery (with some justification) as "hideously ugly" went first to some 4Fs, then some were transferred to Patriots and 8Fs. See pp161-2 of their Illustrated History of LMS Locomotives, vol 1. Nick Edited August 4, 2012 by buffalo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjnewitt Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Also Crabs and Jubillees, but you'll need to check photos to see which locos had rivetted or welded at any particular time. Im sure they found their way behind some Stanier 8fs as well. They did but my understanding is that these were a rather different type. A batch of ten, initially paired with Jubilees, and described by Jenkinson & Essery (with some justification) as "hideously ugly" went first to some 4Fs, then some were transferred to Patriots and 8Fs. See pp161-2 of their Illustrated History of LMS Locomotives, vol 1. There were four different types of Folwer or 'old standard' tender. Flush riveted (note not welded), riveted beaded, riveted unbeaded and then there were 10 modifed with high straight sides (this is the one you're thinking of Nick). The last type came up in this section of the forum recently. I don't think they're ugly at all, just different! They all were 3500 Gallon capacity. They did indeed find their way behind 8Fs, at least 53 of them. They swaped their Stanier 4000 gallon tenders for Folwer ones with Jubilees in the late fifties/early sixties. There is a list in LMS Locomotive Profiles No.8 of which ones had the Folwer tender and which of the types they had. There was only on 8F that recieved the high straight sided type and that was 48600 between 1958 and 1964. There are also lists of Folwler tender allocations in 'The Book of the Jubilees' and 'The Book of the Patriots' both by Irwell Press. All 'unrebuilt' Patriots had Fowler tenders and a large number of Jubilees. Both classes used all four types. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Also Crabs and Jubillees, but you'll need to check photos to see which locos had rivetted or welded at any particular time. (Pedant mode 'on' - purely in the interest of accuracy you understand) Surely all Fowler tenders were riveted Stuart. Just that a lot of them used countersunk rivets and several pounds of filler to give a flush effect which could be taken to 'look' like a welded job. (Pedant mode 'off') Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanley Melrose Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 (Pedant mode 'on' - purely in the interest of accuracy you understand) Surely all Fowler tenders were riveted Stuart. Just that a lot of them used countersunk rivets and several pounds of filler to give a flush effect which could be taken to 'look' like a welded job. (Pedant mode 'off') I understand that John Jennison is preparing an article for the LMS Journal on the topic of Fowler tenders. On the evidence of his previous writings, I feel sure this will provide the definitive information on the subject. ATB, Stan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steves17 Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Does anyone know if any Fowler tenders were built without the standard water scoop aspect to them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Blandford1969 Posted September 11, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 11, 2017 There is of course the last version, which is also the first Stanier fitted to 936. with sides raised up and over in the style of a Stanier 3500 gallon tender, but at the width of a Fowler tender. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Does anyone know if any Fowler tenders were built without the standard water scoop aspect to them? Yes. There is a photo of a domeless tender attached to 44330 in the Wild Swan Pictorial Supplement to LMSLocomotive Profile No.10 on the 4Fs.44330 was one of a batch (4312-4331) built at St. Rollox in 1927/28. The photo caption suggests that provision was made to fit scoops if required. Tank vents are fitted within the coal space. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steves17 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 (edited) Thanks Bruce. I don't own that particular Vol of the excellent series but good to know and i'll see about seeking out a copy, cheers. There is of course the last version, which is also the first Stanier fitted to 936. with sides raised up and over in the style of a Stanier 3500 gallon tender, but at the width of a Fowler tender. You're referring to the high sided series I trust? Those all had the standard water scoop and dome set up as far as I know. Edited September 12, 2017 by steves17 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Blandford1969 Posted September 12, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 12, 2017 Yes, that's the one. A rather interesting tender, which I hope to replicate one day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steves17 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 (edited) Good choice, something different from the norm and plenty of room for DCCsound and any other paraphernalia As the 10 strong series were otherwise still basically just standard Fowlers you might be able to use the beading as a cutting away point and then, using the inside tank area you could glue/solder a backing board onto it for securing on a high rise section. Said strengthening joint could be hidden away under a coal load. Edited September 13, 2017 by steves17 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted September 13, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 13, 2017 Thanks Bruce. I don't own that particular Vol of the excellent series but good to know and i'll see about seeking out a copy, cheers. You're referring to the high sided series I trust? Those all had the standard water scoop and dome set up as far as I know. There was only one of these, coupled to 40933 and 40936 in BR days. The series of 10 you are thinking of had straight sides. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 The series of 10 you are thinking of had straight sides. Like this one? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Hartford_railway_station_2096755_60938971.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted September 13, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 13, 2017 That's the one, mostly ran with Jubilees, 8F, Patriots and 4F. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steves17 Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 (edited) Ah sorry about the mix up there, found the bit on the one off rebuild in Vol 1 of 'An illustrated History of L.M.S. Locomotives'. The 4F pictorial supplement has proved most enlightening in general so thanks for the recommendation Bruce One thing i'm wondering about the St Rollox's scoopless builds though is why they were built with the breathers? Surely they would of been redundant without them so the only reason I can think of why they were included was out of force of habit/for possible conversion convenience down the road. I've been trying to brush up on the Fowlers in general so i'm wondering if anyone in the know might be able to confirm or correct the following. 4F No.4027, which entered service on the 30th of November 1924 was the first engine to have a Standard Fowler. 4F No.4410, which entered service in December 1925 was the first LMSR engine built with coal doors over a solid bulkhead. 7F No.9660, which entered service on the 22nd of April 1932 was the first engine to be built with snap head rivets and this also coincided with the introduction of the coal grill. Also not strictly a Fowler tender but does anyone know of any plans/dimensions/kits for the three 4000 gallon Stanier prototypes? Regards Steve Edited September 25, 2017 by steves17 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 Yes. There is a photo of a domeless tender attached to 44330 in the Wild Swan Pictorial Supplement to LMSLocomotive Profile No.10 on the 4Fs.44330 was one of a batch (4312-4331) built at St. Rollox in 1927/28. The photo caption suggests that provision was made to fit scoops if required. Tank vents are fitted within the coal space. I should have added that the hybrid tender preserved with Somerset and Dorset 2-8-0 No.88 apparently has a scoopless tender. The Bachmann model is sans dome so I presume they have it right. 4027 was the first 4F to have a standard Fowler tender. To quote from the Wild Swan book "Derby N0s. 4027-4056 to O/6213 were originally to have new 3,500 gallon tenders and O/6215 was issued for their construction in April 1924. This was amended the following November to just twenty and shortly afterwards to ten, the remainder being diverted to new compounds. Thus 4027-4036 were the first Class 4 goods engines to receive the new pattern tenders." It therefore depends when the compounds those tenders were transferred to got onto traffic. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 Breathers may have been fitted to prevent any chance of creating a vacuum in the water space as the loco uses the water. Gordon A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted September 25, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 25, 2017 Ah sorry about the mix up there, found the bit on the one off rebuild in Vol 1 of 'An illustrated History of L.M.S. Locomotives'. The 4F pictorial supplement has proved most enlightening in general so thanks for the recommendation Bruce One thing i'm wondering about the St Rollox's scoopless builds though is why they were built with the breathers? Surely they would of been redundant without them so the only reason I can think of why they were included was out of force of habit/for possible conversion convenience down the road. I've been trying to brush up on the Fowlers in general so i'm wondering if anyone in the know might be able to confirm or correct the following. 4F No.4027, which entered service on the 30th of November 1924 was the first engine to have a Standard Fowler. 4F No.4410, which entered service in December 1925 was the first LMSR engine built with coal doors over a solid bulkhead. 7F No.9660, which entered service on the 22nd of April 1932 was the first engine to be built with snap head rivets and this also coincided with the introduction of the coal grill. Also not strictly a Fowler tender but does anyone know of any plans/dimensions/kits for the three 4000 gallon Stanier prototypes? Regards Steve All the drawings for these tenders are in the Wild Swan "Locomotives No4 - Princess Royal" book. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Blandford1969 Posted July 10, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2018 A question on the experimental Stanier tender fitted behind 40936 and later 40933. Does anyone know, or have any photo which shows what type of frame strengtheners were fitted on this tender (visible between the frames). Standard Fowler tenders had plain plate, where as the Stanier frames had the cut outs in the frames. I cannot see what type is fitted in either and I have now cut out the sides and back ready to start putting this together. Sadly no drawings appear to have survived for this tender. Any help really appreciated. Duncan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted July 10, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2018 I can't see this on any of the photos I have but the rivet pattern is the same as on Stanier tenders. I've never seen any drawings either but I made this one to build 40936. 049A.PDF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandhole Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Jidenco did a kit for the high sided Fowler tender. A clear case of if you want one get it!!! I didn't and, despite what is thought of Jidenco, I still regret it! have to scratch the thing to go behind Australia now!! C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Jidenco did a kit for the high sided Fowler tender. A clear case of if you want one get it!!! I didn't and, despite what is thought of Jidenco, I still regret it! have to scratch the thing to go behind Australia now!! C. I had planned to get one the very day that the Falcon Brassworks argument happened and the website closed. As well as a Stanier 3500 and a GWR eight wheeler. I know they were only etchings, but all the other parts are available from other sources. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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