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Ray's 4mm Workbench, Metalsmiths Turntable (end of P.13)


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This is my first foray into chassis building and as a first attempt I decided to try out the High Level 14xx kit. The reason behind this is that Southern42 bought a Dapol 14xx at a recent show (and we all know what the chassis is like on these models) for her 'Great West Road' layout (see Layout section) and muggins got the job of trying to make it run.

We picked up the kit from Manchester Show last weekend along with a set of Alan Gibson Wheels. Despite several attempts at trying to persuade us to build it in P4 from the ScaleFour and High Level stands, Southern42 was having none of it, so OO it is, which is making it look a bit tight to get some of the detail in.

It all looks a bit daunting at present but having read through the manual several times I thought I'd have a crack what looks to be the easier bit, The Gearbox, first.

post-11105-0-01198100-1349889878.jpg

This is as far as I've got today and so far all has gone pretty well. The final shaft is a touch tight but then it was tight in the bushes before they were soldered into the etching, i expect It to free up with a bit of honing. Next job is to cut down the intermediate shafts and assemble the gearing and motor. These have all been test fitted and seem to go together ok.

One thing of concern at present is the width across the final drive shaft bearings. The gearbox housing is 7mm but the bearings take it out to 9mm, with only 12mm between the frames (found by measuring the spacers for oo gauge) I'm wondering if there is room for the Hornblocks? I guess the bearings could be cut back a bit to the gearbox housing but theirs no mention of this in the instructions. Any advice appreciated.

Ray.

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I believe that the instructions will tell you to trim the bearings back so that they are flush with the outside of the gearbox. This is certainly the case with every other High Level gearbox that I have assembled. That should yield more than enough room.

 

Adam

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We picked up the kit from Manchester Show last weekend along with a set of Alan Gibson Wheels. Despite several attempts at trying to persuade us to build it in P4 from the ScaleFour and High Level stands, Southern42 was having none of it, so OO it is, which is making it look a bit tight to get some of the detail in.

.

 

Would love P4 but Sir's not keen on converting all the stuff with outside cylinders...and then there's the track.....

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Hi ray,

 

Having built a High Level pannier chassis and Nielson kit the best advice I can give is to follow Chris's instructions to the absolute letter and do not deviate, also no matter how many bits in the kit and how complex it looks, generally you will only be working on 2 bits at a time.

 

Rules that I follow;

 

1) Read insructions

2) Identify parts

3) Rule 1

4) dry fit

5) Rule 1

6) Check square and true

7) Rule 1

8) Solder

 

I will be following thread with interest and try to give advice where I can, good luck.

 

Chris

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I believe that the instructions will tell you to trim the bearings back so that they are flush with the outside of the gearbox. This is certainly the case with every other High Level gearbox that I have assembled. That should yield more than enough room.

 

Adam

Hi Adam.

This seems sensible but the only reference i can find to this is "For the driven axle you'll need to file the circular boss from the rear of the brass hornblock bearings to allow clearance for the gearbox", so i'll leave the gearbox bearings for now and see what transpires.

 

Hi ray,

 

Having built a High Level pannier chassis and Nielson kit the best advice I can give is to follow Chris's instructions to the absolute letter and do not deviate, also no matter how many bits in the kit and how complex it looks, generally you will only be working on 2 bits at a time.

 

Rules that I follow;

 

1) Read insructions

2) Identify parts

3) Rule 1

4) dry fit

5) Rule 1

6) Check square and true

7) Rule 1

8) Solder

 

I will be following thread with interest and try to give advice where I can, good luck.

 

Chris

Good advice Chris, I totally missed the "use the coupling rods in conjunction with axle jigs" when i was reading through to see what tools I needed. I had it in the back of my mind that axle jigs were used somewhere but totally forgot about them. Looks like an order to Eileens Emporium coming up.

 

I'd have to agree with Chris, deviate from the instructions at your peril. They weren't written as a 'guide' they were written as a 'how to'. Don't ask how I know!

 

Mike

Sounds like you've been there Mike, back to page one.

 

Ray.

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One of the great joys, on this site, is to see threads with 'First foray into ....... building' for it means that another enthusiast has taken the plunge into kit or even scratch building. There are loads of very competent model builders, who read and contribute to this site, so if you have any queries, any problems, even any reservations, post em up and some one will help you.

 

And it might be worth remembering that none of these very competent model builders was born with a soldering iron or boiler rolling machine; they have all had to acquire their skills and learn 'their trade'.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

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Been reading up on axle jigs, co-incedently MRJ had a useful review this month, however there seems to be a disparaty as to which way to assemble frames.

The high level instructions - assemble frames then add hornblocks using the jigs.

Jig instructions - assemble hornblocks in frame sides independently using jig and then make up frames in the jig.

 

The latter seems to make a lot of sense but flies in the face of the advice given above, I.e. follow the High Level instructions.

 

Whichever way I go it looks like an axel jig is a must.

 

Ray.

 

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Been reading up on axle jigs, co-incedently MRJ had a useful review this month, however there seems to be a disparaty as to which way to assemble frames.

The high level instructions - assemble frames then add hornblocks using the jigs.

Jig instructions - assemble hornblocks in frame sides independently using jig and then make up frames in the jig.

 

The latter seems to make a lot of sense but flies in the face of the advice given above, I.e. follow the High Level instructions.

 

It goes like this, if you have the big expensive "Master Chassis" or "Chasis2" jigs which will align all the axles in one go, it can makes sense to fit the horn blocks to the frame sides in the jig, before assembling the sides in the jig, but you can do it the other way round if you insist. If you have the separate single axle jigs which rely on the rods to space out the axles, then you have little choice but to fit the horn blocks to the assembled frames.

 

Mr High-level's instructions are good and reliable but you shouldn't let that be an excuse to stop you thinking for your self, he hasn't necessarily thought of everything.

 

Will - A friendly face from behind the P4 stand

 

P.S. Outside cylinders are no bar to going P4 - didn't you notice the LNER O4 (not Bachmann) and GWR 28xx chassis on the P4 stand both running very nicely? And they are both 2-8-0s.

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Been reading up on axle jigs, co-incedently MRJ had a useful review this month, however there seems to be a disparaty as to which way to assemble frames.

The high level instructions - assemble frames then add hornblocks using the jigs.

Jig instructions - assemble hornblocks in frame sides independently using jig and then make up frames in the jig.

 

The latter seems to make a lot of sense but flies in the face of the advice given above, I.e. follow the High Level instructions.

 

Whichever way I go it looks like an axel jig is a must.

 

Ray.

 

Hello Ray,

 

welcome to this fun filled world of building loco frames.

 

There are one or two thing that are important about the frames,

1] the axles are square across the frames,

2] the frames are parallel to the axle C/Ls.

The above may sound like the same thing, but it's not. One is across the frames, and the other is that the "top" face of the frames is 'flat'. It may have lumps and bumps but at some point you will have two (four) parts of the frames that are all in the same plane.

3] the axle centres have to match up with the coupling rods, dummy axles (axles with a turned end) these normally have a taper on them. Use these to set your axle bearings. It's a good test if your building a set of frame that are ridged as well as building frames that are going to have compensation as well.

4] if your going down the compensated route leave one set of bearings as your fixed datum to work from. Front, middle or rear. It does not matter. All you will have to do later is remove the metal out of the frame to accommodate the horn blocks.

 

I do have one of the expensive chassis jigs, the one called Master chassis? Before I got this I just used dummy axles and straight edges, all on a sheet of glass.

 

All I can say is that your frames have to be flat and square, before you put the body on and that they must be flat and square after the body is fitted to them.

 

I would say that I'd never build one side of a set of frames and then build the other one and expect to be able to get them to line up in all the planes.

 

As my last word, build the frames as a set then start to fit the axles/horn blocks.

 

I hope this helps,

 

OzzyO.

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The need to get everything perfectly level is why it's usually easier to build a sprung or compensated chassis rather than a rigid one!

 

The High Level components are generally superb and do go together without causing much head-scratching or grief, apart from the occasional singed finger! If you make up one of their kits 'by the book' then it will run nicely. I wish this was true of some others I could name....

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Before you do any assembly of the chassis make a decision on which form of pick-up you want to use. The destructions wait until the chassis is all but complete before mentioning pick-ups and are then very non-committal as to their form. The side frames actually have half-etched holes locating plunger pick-up but there is no mention of them. If you want to use plunger pick-ups the holes are best made before the side frames are assembled to the stretchers.

 

Regards

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It goes like this, if you have the big expensive "Master Chassis" or "Chasis2" jigs which will align all the axles in one go, it can makes sense to fit the horn blocks to the frame sides in the jig, before assembling the sides in the jig, but you can do it the other way round if you insist. If you have the separate single axle jigs which rely on the rods to space out the axles, then you have little choice but to fit the horn blocks to the assembled frames.

 

Mr High-level's instructions are good and reliable but you shouldn't let that be an excuse to stop you thinking for your self, he hasn't necessarily thought of everything.

 

Will - A friendly face from behind the P4 stand

 

P.S. Outside cylinders are no bar to going P4 - didn't you notice the LNER O4 (not Bachmann) and GWR 28xx chassis on the P4 stand both running very nicely? And they are both 2-8-0s.

Thanks Will.

On re-reading the High Level instructions I think they they must refer to the single axle jigs which probably accounts for the different technique.

Were you the kind gentleman showing me how easy it was to convert a diesel and 0-6-0 at the weekend? Just pop-in an new set of wheels!

Haven't ruled out P4 totally, but at this early stage in my modelling it might be a case of running before i can walk.

 

Hello Ray,

 

welcome to this fun filled world of building loco frames.

 

There are one or two thing that are important about the frames,

1] the axles are square across the frames,

2] the frames are parallel to the axle C/Ls.

The above may sound like the same thing, but it's not. One is across the frames, and the other is that the "top" face of the frames is 'flat'. It may have lumps and bumps but at some point you will have two (four) parts of the frames that are all in the same plane.

3] the axle centres have to match up with the coupling rods, dummy axles (axles with a turned end) these normally have a taper on them. Use these to set your axle bearings. It's a good test if your building a set of frame that are ridged as well as building frames that are going to have compensation as well.

4] if your going down the compensated route leave one set of bearings as your fixed datum to work from. Front, middle or rear. It does not matter. All you will have to do later is remove the metal out of the frame to accommodate the horn blocks.

 

I do have one of the expensive chassis jigs, the one called Master chassis? Before I got this I just used dummy axles and straight edges, all on a sheet of glass.

 

All I can say is that your frames have to be flat and square, before you put the body on and that they must be flat and square after the body is fitted to them.

 

I would say that I'd never build one side of a set of frames and then build the other one and expect to be able to get them to line up in all the planes.

 

As my last word, build the frames as a set then start to fit the axles/horn blocks.

 

I hope this helps,

 

OzzyO.

Thanks OzzyO

Once again, a lot of good advice. Will be tackling the frames over the weekend. I have a nice thick piece of plate glass that i used for my first attempt at track building so i guess that might come in handy here as well.

 

The need to get everything perfectly level is why it's usually easier to build a sprung or compensated chassis rather than a rigid one!

 

The High Level components are generally superb and do go together without causing much head-scratching or grief, apart from the occasional singed finger! If you make up one of their kits 'by the book' then it will run nicely. I wish this was true of some others I could name....

I'll be building the compensated chassis, everything here is most encouraging.

 

Before you do any assembly of the chassis make a decision on which form of pick-up you want to use. The destructions wait until the chassis is all but complete before mentioning pick-ups and are then very non-committal as to their form. The side frames actually have half-etched holes locating plunger pick-up but there is no mention of them. If you want to use plunger pick-ups the holes are best made before the side frames are assembled to the stretchers.

 

Regards

Quite, i've already picked up on that one (excuse the pun), I have a set of the Alan Gibson plunger pickups, I've not seen any reports on these but they look a neat solution.

 

Today i finished off the Gearbox, cutting down the intermediate axles and giving it a test run with the motor

 

post-11105-0-72576100-1349987993.jpg

 

(sorry about the blurred image)

 

Had a bit of a problem fitting the motor as the fixing screws were right up against the housing, i thought I'd soldered the mounting plate on upside down for a minute, but it's certainly the right way as it's marked 'top'.

A bit of fettling solved the problem, you can just about see the cut away bit around the fixing screw in the picture.

 

Made a start on the hornblocks, which bent up nicely, but the square brass bearing blocks are a little tight getting to the top of the slide. Run out of time today (to much work getting in the way) so will have to investigate tomorrow.

 

Ray.

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High Level hornblocks can be a little tight, when first fitted. Four things to consider/do :-

 

1) Are the horncheeks exactly 90 degress after bending. Best to check under magnification to ascertain this.

 

2) Reverse the hornblocks and check that they slide between the horn cheeks, without the slots engaging. If this fit is tight, then gently polish the sides of the hornblock until they slide easily, still without the slots engaging.

 

3) There can be a little burr on the hornblock slides on the horn guides. A quick rub with a suitable needle file will remove this burr.

 

4) If the horn block is still tight on the guides, when the slots are engaged, try just dressing the slots in the hornblock with the edge of a triangular needle file, again to remove any burr and to slightly ease their travel.

 

Using High Level horn guides and axleboxes, these processes rapidly become 'second nature'.

 

Oh and 5) if there is still a problem, post up another query, on here.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

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Thanks Will.

Were you the kind gentleman showing me how easy it was to convert a diesel and 0-6-0 at the weekend? Just pop-in an new set of wheels!

If you are referring to this gentleman,http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_10_2012/post-3210-0-72117200-1349369937_thumb.jpg then no, I'm not Will, but you may have got the same message from Will on the Society stand.

Best

Keith

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...Quite, i've already picked up on that one (excuse the pun), I have a set of the Alan Gibson plunger pickups, I've not seen any reports on these but they look a neat solution.

Some love them, some hate them. I'm in the former camp, but accept that if you're a bit free with oiling and there's dust on the tracks, then they may pick up a lot of crud. I used them on the one I built a few years ago and they are fine, see photo:

 

post-6746-0-63174800-1349991341.jpg

 

You may also just be able to see why you shouldn't file down the protruding bearings on the gearbox axle shaft. When you come to put the gearbox into the frames, you can then file them down so that there is little or no sideplay on the gearbox between the hornblocks.

 

Today i finished off the Gearbox, cutting down the intermediate axles and giving it a test run with the motor

...

Had a bit of a problem fitting the motor as the fixing screws were right up against the housing, i thought I'd soldered the mounting plate on upside down for a minute, but it's certainly the right way as it's marked 'top'.

A bit of fettling solved the problem, you can just about see the cut away bit around the fixing screw in the picture...

I'm surprised you needed to do that. Perhaps you were holding the motor in place and trying to do everything at once? Use a magnetised screwdriver to pick up the screws, place them throught the holes then bring the motor up to start the screws. You do need some very small screwdrivers to do this easily, though.

 

...Made a start on the hornblocks, which bent up nicely, but the square brass bearing blocks are a little tight getting to the top of the slide...

Yes, they will need some fettling. First make sure that the folded guides are straight, have good right-angle bends and have no rough edges, clean them up with a file and wet/dry paper. Also check for stray solder in the angles. You'll then need to match each brass bearing to its guide. Keep them separate and mark them so that you know which is which. Use fine wet/dry to dress the edges until all fits. I find it easiest to hold the bearing straight by putting an old axle or short piece of silver steel through it when doing this. It's probably also a good idea to run a folded piece of the abrasive along the corners (not the inside faces) of the slots to make sure there are no burrs.

 

Good luck with the next stages,

 

Nick

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I can just about see the plunger pick ups in the photo (at the end of the red and black wire in front of the cog) How are they fitted to the chassis, I have not seen them before, they appear to be insulated?

Does this help?

 

post-6746-0-22124600-1349996126.jpg

 

The white part is a plastic bush that fits through a hole (2mm-ish, IIRC) in the frame. There's a flange on the outside to stop it going all the way through. The plunger is brass, thick and rounded at the outer end, thin at the inner end. A spring is placed over the thin end then this is passed through the bush. The thin end is bent over* to retain it and the wire soldered (quickly so as not to melt the bush) to it. If you're familiar with sprung buffers, it is very similar.

 

Nick

 

* edit: subsequent events with Ray's build reminded me why bending the plungers is not a good idea. Far better to solder on the wire at a point where it doesn't inhibit movement and trim off the excess.

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Thanks Will.

On re-reading the High Level instructions I think they they must refer to the single axle jigs which probably accounts for the different technique.

Were you the kind gentleman showing me how easy it was to convert a diesel and 0-6-0 at the weekend? Just pop-in an new set of wheels!

Haven't ruled out P4 totally, but at this early stage in my modelling it might be a case of running before i can walk.

 

 

If you can build a Highlevel Chassis you can do P4.

 

But I'd be very wary of plunger pick-ups. They make remarkably good brakes and prevent compensation/springing from working properly.

 

If you are referring to this gentleman,http://www.rmweb.co....69937_thumb.jpg then no, I'm not Will, but you may have got the same message from Will on the Society stand.

Best

Keith

 

No Keith he was at Manchester not Scaleforum. And it was Mike A who spent much of the weekend was doing serial re-conversions of his "ready to run" rat. I just watched and smiled nicely.

 

Will

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...

But I'd be very wary of plunger pick-ups. They make remarkably good brakes and prevent compensation/springing from working properly...

That's not a very helpful statement, Will, you make it sound like an unquestionable fact. Perhaps "If not fitted carefully, they may make remarkably good brakes and prevent compensation/springing from working properly" would be more honest. After all, the same could be said of any form of wiper or or other method that adds friction. My 48XX is hardly the only example that runs quite well without such problems.

 

Nick

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Mike Sharman once estimated that plunger pickups in 4mm were like putting a jack between the back of the wheel and the frame of a prototype loco and pumping it up hard!

 

I've used them in 7mm with no problems, but in the smaller scale I do find they exert too much braking pressure, and they seem rather fiddly too, though that may be my fat fingers. Best to try them out and see how you get on; if they don't work for you then there's nothing lost except a modelling session or two!

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That's not a very helpful statement, Will, you make it sound like an unquestionable fact. Perhaps "If not fitted carefully, they may make remarkably good brakes and prevent compensation/springing from working properly" would be more honest. After all, the same could be said of any form of wiper or or other method that adds friction. My 48XX is hardly the only example that runs quite well without such problems.

 

I did say be "very wary" not "don't" and it was late at night I was going for a good one line-er. However if you would like a bit more balance.

 

I had one loco that ran well with them, in rigid OO using one side only insulation (pick ups one side only). It did tend to accumulate a ball of fibres on each pick up but that was not a significant issue.

 

However rigid live chassis locos were not for me so I tried again when I moved on to a dead chassis loco (pick ups both sides) with full compensation. This did not give a happy, or working, result.

 

I'm happy to agree that there is an adjustment issue here, but

1. I'm not at all clear that chopping the right amount of an already very small springs is a process that is going to be achieved reliably

2. these springs operate over quite a short range, so the difference between no contact, a gentle touch and firmly applied brakes is quite small.

3. and then you have to consider the impact on a sprung/compensated axle that moves relative to the chassis. Fitting them anywhere but on the axle centre line risks having a significant impact on the way the springing/compensation works.

 

I'm only too aware that you should equally consider the like impact of ordinary rim scraper pick-ups too. After all I run CSB sprung locs's these days with the pick-ups bearing on the top of the wheels and hence forming part of the suspension! (I've been waiting for somebody to pick me up on that but nobody has, yet). None the less the distance across which a well designed rim scraper pick-up applies a relativity uniform and controllable pressure is huge compared to that available from a plunger pick-up.

 

Oh yes, be careful the electrical connection isn't also effectively part of the spring acting on the plunger.

 

When you can get plungers working then they do make a very tidy solution. But fool proof they are not.

 

Will

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Brasso.

 

High Level hornblocks can be a little tight, when first fitted. Four things to consider/do :-

 

1) Are the horncheeks exactly 90 degress after bending. Best to check under magnification to ascertain this.

 

2) Reverse the hornblocks and check that they slide between the horn cheeks, without the slots engaging. If this fit is tight, then gently polish the sides of the hornblock until they slide easily, still without the slots engaging.

 

3) There can be a little burr on the hornblock slides on the horn guides. A quick rub with a suitable needle file will remove this burr.

 

4) If the horn block is still tight on the guides, when the slots are engaged, try just dressing the slots in the hornblock with the edge of a triangular needle file, again to remove any burr and to slightly ease their travel.

 

Using High Level horn guides and axleboxes, these processes rapidly become 'second nature'.

 

Oh and 5) if there is still a problem, post up another query, on here.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

Many thanks, I'll have a go at sorting these today and report back.

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If you are referring to this gentleman,http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_10_2012/post-3210-0-72117200-1349369937_thumb.jpg then no, I'm not Will, but you may have got the same message from Will on the Society stand.

Best

Keith

 

No Keith he was at Manchester not Scaleforum. And it was Mike A who spent much of the weekend was doing serial re-conversions of his "ready to run" rat. I just watched and smiled nicely.

 

Will

 

I'm sorry here, i'm terrible remembering names and faces, but yes it was at Manchester MRE where I had a chat with some of you.

 

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