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Hattons Model Railways of Widnes (formerly Liverpool).


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But their return on some of those projects is in the future. Selling Bachmann products at a mark-up to a waiting market now is much better for cash-flow. Unlikely to be the reason for the present impasse.

Given the patchy frequency of new OO introductions (by no means confined to Bachmann), Hatton's decided quite some time ago to substantially increase their involvement in the pre-owned market, precisely to help maintain cash-flow when there is a paucity of new items to sell.

 

Bachmann may have decided that cutting off deliveries to (probably) the biggest retailer in the business is best done when there is little to supply. Doing so may make them less unpopular (overall) than under-delivering on orders placed by everyone else in the trade.

 

That said, it will clearly provide further stimulus to Hatton's in their development of self-originated products to ensure continuity of supply and which may (directly or indirectly) lead them to reduce their future purchases from Bachmann.

 

I don't see there being much leverage towards a resolution of the dispute until [a] Hatton's have substantially run down their existing stock of Bachmann product and what Bachmann can supply exceeds the non-Hatton's demand. So, weeks rather than days, and perhaps even a few months.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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I think lack of supply from the likes of Hattons and Hornby over recent years for a variety of reasons forced Hatton's to look at how they might guarantee a regular supply of new models and we are now seeing the fruits of that work.

 

If Bachmann and Hornby had continued to supply good products in good time and not see endless delays then the likes of RevolutioN, Accurascale, Rapido, SLW and other new entrants would have found it harder to gain a market but now they are here it is clear this is the new reality for Bachmann and Hornby who will need to adapt quickly before they lose any more ground.

 

That sealed beam peak must now be high on Bachmann's list of things that might attract some solid sales because someone else is going to gobble that one up.

 

Do we think Heljan might look again at 47's after it does the 86, will it also look at Peaks seeing as it had them in O, then there is the class 25 as well.

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But their return on some of those projects is in the future. CORRECT

Selling Bachmann products at a mark-up to a waiting market now is much better for cash-flow. CORRECT

Unlikely to be the reason for the present impasse.  WRONG

 

This is a dispute.   You don't act at a time convenient for your competitor, you do it from a position of strength.

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Given the patchy frequency of new OO introductions (by no means confined to Bachmann), Hatton's decided quite some time ago to substantially increase their involvement in the pre-owned market, precisely to help maintain cash-flow when there is a paucity of new items to sell.

 

Bachmann may have decided that cutting off supplies to (probably) the biggest retailer in the business is best done when there is little to supply. Doing so may make them less unpopular (overall) than under-delivering on orders placed by everyone else in the trade.

 

That said, it will clearly provide further stimulus to Hatton's in their development of self-originated products to ensure continuity of supply and which may (directly or indirectly) lead them to reduce their future purchases from Bachmann.

 

I don't see there being much leverage towards a resolution of the dispute until [a] Hatton's have substantially run down their existing stock of Bachmann product and Bachmann's delivery patterns have recovered somewhat. So, weeks rather than days, and perhaps even a few months.

 

John

Looking at the latest availability on the Bachmann website there is very little new due until June / July 2019. There also appears to be quite a lot in stock which needs to be shifted to maintain their cash flow.

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All the arguments about prices/bargain hunting rather miss the point for me.

 

Railway models, unless one is a totally undiscriminating "Rule One" merchant, are simply not commodities in the way that motor fuel or baked beans are.

 

Some years ago, I witnessed an exchange between a father and son in a model shop. The lad had his Xmas money and a desire for a particular Hornby loco (a Duchess, IIRC) which cost somewhat more than his "pot". The shopkeeper, keen to make a sale and the father, keen for the boy not to leave empty handed, suggested a cheaper alternative ( a Lima diesel, I think).

 

I understood later from the shopkeeper that the lad stuck to his guns and came back for his preferred loco a month or two later, having saved up the difference.

 

A "bargain" is only a bargain so long as the item on offer is something you want/need. If not, it represents spending for the sake of spending and I generally follow the example of the youngster.

 

Funnily enough, once I stopped buying stuff that, in all honesty, doesn't really matter to me, I found I can readily afford what does. With or without a discount....

 

John   

Edited by Dunsignalling
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I have my eye on a second Black Motor in the SALE OF THE CENTURYYYYYYYYyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy  

 

But last night I began thinking about my somewhat unused N gauge stock after having found some boxes I thought I'd lost and I was packing up the remaining unboxed N stock I had.

 

I can spend £69 on another loco in OO when I have more than I need already or I can purchase some Tim Horn boards and build another N layout to run the abundance of stock I already have, the latter idea is starting to resonate happily.

 

As you say, a bargain is a bargain if it is something you really want and not just a purchase because it's cheap.

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Hattons are investing in manufacturing, O gauge in particular the A4 and A3,  also in OO the class 66,  perhaps Hattons have prioritised those projects over  Bachmann stock etc

 

 

But their return on some of those projects is in the future. Selling Bachmann products at a mark-up to a waiting market now is much better for cash-flow. Unlikely to be the reason for the present impasse.

 

 

This is a dispute.   You don't act at a time convenient for your competitor, you do it from a position of strength.

I don’t follow what you are saying. Are you agreeing with the first post that Hattons are freezing out new Bachmann models while their own are in gestation? As we have seen, this is doing remarkably little for customer relations.
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I have not always found my local model railway shops all that wonderful. A couple of weeks ago I visited my local shop to see what they had got in stock and the assistant said "You ain't buying anything. Haven't you anything better to do?"

 

This is not an isolated problem. I once visited a well known store in Holborne. I had taken some items to sell but I was having a look round. The assistant went up to me and told me to leave as the shop was closing for lunch. I went back after lunch and told him that I would like to sell some items and they were offering to buy items at 1/3 of the price. He told me to put them on a table. He offered less than 1/3. When I queried this he said they were not in good condition. I asked if he had deducted anything. He said no and added them up again and gave me the amount I had asked for. The store, which had branches in Brighton and other towns closed a long time ago.

 

I am a regular customer of Hattons because they usually give better service. This month I have browsed their site every day but have only bought one item. Earlier this year my local shop had a Hornby Rood Ashton Hall for sale for about £120 which looked nice but I thought was rather expensive so I did not buy it. I found a new one on Hattons' website for about £80 and then asked if they would part exchange it for an Hornby Kneller Hall. Hattons offered £20 for Kneller Hall and sent me a label to post it to them. On receipt of the model Hattons sent me an invoice for about £60 and on payment of this sent me the new Hornby Rood Ashton Hall. Theoretically Kneller Hall is worth £40 but I had tried to sell it for that price at a three day model railway exhibition and at a toy fair without success so selling it to Hattons at a lower price saves a lot of time and money. 

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I don’t follow what you are saying. Are you agreeing with the first post that Hattons are freezing out new Bachmann models while their own are in gestation? As we have seen, this is doing remarkably little for customer relations.

Yes, you are right that it doesn’t make sense for Hattons to be freezing out Bachmann... Try looking at it the other way round, it makes more sense then.
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I don't know what the dispute is about but I cannot understand why manufacturer's object to retailers discounting their products. The retailer has paid the manufacturer for the goods and so what happens afterwards does not affect the retailer.

 

Our model railway club had a talk from Hornby's Marketing Manager and he was very cross with Hattons for selling the new Hornby Pullmans for £25 each. He said that Hattons' discounting was unsustainable but they are still there and have been discounting for at least the last fifty years. As the railway I am modelling did not run Pullman trains prior to preservation I would not have bought the Pullmans at the recommended retail price but the Hornby Pullmans with their working table lamps were works of art and the opportunity to buy them for £25 was too good to miss. The public also likes seeing them on my layout.

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I don't know what the dispute is about but I cannot understand why manufacturer's object to retailers discounting their products. The retailer has paid the manufacturer for the goods and so what happens afterwards does not affect the retailer.

 

Directly, no. Indirectly, maybe.

 

If people see lots of models at deeply discounted prices, they may become more reluctant in future to pay full price.

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Directly, no. Indirectly, maybe.

 

If people see lots of models at deeply discounted prices, they may become more reluctant in future to pay full price.

 

The question is why are models discounted in the first place ? Is it because the manufacturer has produced too many, and/or priced them higher than the market will bear, so the shopkeeper has to reduce the price to shift the stock ?

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If Hattons did not discount their models no-one outside Widnes would buy them. If there was a choice between buying a model at the recommended retail price at your local model shop or paying the recommended retail price plus £4 postage at Hattons the customer would buy the models from the local shop.

 

In the present market Hattons are still not competitive for items costing less than about £40. For instance my nearest shop on the Swanage Railway has sold out of Bachmann 38-526 Mk1 horse boxes at the recommended retail price of £36.95 but is offering a member's discount of 10% giving a price of £33.95. Hattons is offering them for about £31 but has not yet got any in stock and by the time it has got some in stock other retailers may have sold out. After adding £4 postage the Hattons model becomes more expensive than the one from the railway shop.

 

Generally manufacturers need to make about 1,500 models to be viable. In the majority of cases this is much greater than the demand at the recommended retail price so they are priced to recover their costs at a smaller amount which may be between 500 and 1,000. Shops need to discount the remaining models to sell them. All my figures are hypothetical but I think they show the current trend.

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Quite.

My point was that 6 months is a long time for a manufacturer to have no meaningful items to sell. Bachmann need Hatton's and other box shifters more than ever at this point in time to help shift existing stock.

 

Bachmann are heading for a lean time.

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Generally manufacturers need to make about 1,500 models to be viable. In the majority of cases this is much greater than the demand at the recommended retail price so they are priced to recover their costs at a smaller amount which may be between 500 and 1,000. Shops need to discount the remaining models to sell them. All my figures are hypothetical but I think they show the current trend.

 

As limited editions generally are 500 or sometimes 300 (Kernow's recent Hornby ones for example) then it must be lower

 

'The question is why are models discounted in the first place ? Is it because the manufacturer has produced too many, and/or priced them higher than the market will bear, so the shopkeeper has to reduce the price to shift the stock ?' - same with any product really, it gives competitive advantage to retailers doing it when its in demand or allows them to release funds when not selling or when they need cashflow

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Yes, you are right that it doesn’t make sense for Hattons to be freezing out Bachmann... Try looking at it the other way round, it makes more sense then.

Maybe. But I didn’t suggest anything, except that I didn’t think it likely that Hattons was investing in its own models rather than buying stock from Bachmann. So why, in red letters, did you say I was wrong?

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 Bachmann need Hatton's and other box shifters more than ever at this point in time to help shift existing stock.

Why?

Other sellers can shift the stock as well, Bachmann dont NEED box shifters at all, what they do need is shops which will sell the stock in accordance with the T&Cs they signed up to when becoming a Bachmann dealer, and undercutting other retailers is not helpful to those other retailers or Bachmann as a brand.

 

If a model is only available at one shop at one price then people who want one will buy one, but given a choice of a few shops most people would simply chose the cheapest leaving the other retailers with unsold stock, those other retailers will wither and die, race to the bottom is a very apt phrase as people grow to expect discounts on everything.

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My point was that 6 months is a long time for a manufacturer to have no meaningful items to sell. Bachmann need Hatton's and other box shifters more than ever at this point in time to help shift existing stock.

 

Bachmann are heading for a lean time.

What existing stock ? And your prediction? Seven years fat and seven years lean ? Biblical indeed..Some crystal ball this....

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If Hattons did not discount their models no-one outside Widnes would buy them. If there was a choice between buying a model at the recommended retail price at your local model shop or paying the recommended retail price plus £4 postage at Hattons the customer would buy the models from the local shop.

 

 

 

WIDNES MODEL CENTRE

 

Or paying the same price on models at a local shop in Widnes, just saying.

 

It is not as easy or as simple as that Robin. The thing is that Hattons DO discount and £4 postage if you have posted anything that size is very cheap. So even if all the prices were the same, Hattons service and postage charges would still be a better proposition. As we often read not everybody has access to a local model shop. We have customers who cannot physically make it into the shop. We will deliver the item locally if that is the case. I know that Richard Davies MD at Hatton's has also made deliveries on his way home. Not sure how much customers really appreciate that level of service. Are there many shops who would do the same?

 

A lot of posters are drawing their own conclusions as to what is going on at the moment. We don't know what is going on and I for one hope if there is an issue it is resolved sooner than later. I believe this industry needs Hattons in more ways than one.

 

Perhaps we should all draw a breath and let the parties concerned get on with it. Specualtion is never good for employees in this situation.

 

 

 

 

Edited to separate Robin's Comments from mine. How did I manage to box my post in?

 

Edited by Widnes Model Centre
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What existing stock ? And your prediction? Seven years fat and seven years lean ? Biblical indeed..Some crystal ball this....

 

Rock on Ian I've got your back this is one, it's one of the funniest thread for a long time it could be renamed 

how to make an @rse of yourself. :jester:

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Rock on Ian I've got your back this is one, it's one of the funniest thread for a long time it could be renamed 

how to make an @rse of yourself. :jester:

So......what else is new in this world.? Emoticons not at present working on my iPad....but no doubt you get the drift.God Bless Us All as Tiny Tim says....

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