LMS Corridor push pull sets

[chris45lsw]

For anyone interested in building a Stanier Push & pull conversion, this is a standard D1851 built using Comet sides and Dapol roof and interior on my underframe. A driving trailer would simply have the the guards end replaced with a 3-window end, plus of course an extra window would need to be cut where the ducket is. The Dapol parts come in a CKD kit and save a bit of trouble....

 

WEB LMS D1851 A.jpg

Lovely model in my favourite livery, red & cream.  Given that so many renderings of BR 'red' are to too dark camn I ask what you use for your red?

 

chris45lsw

[coachmann]

Hi Chris451sw, It is a cellulose Alfa Romeo car colour but is very close to Railmatch No.311 BR Crimson (blood). I never alter the colour but can make it look lighter or darker depending on the undercoat. Weathering it with much-diluted acrylic black darkens it. On corridor stock, the blood goes on top of the custard and so it comes out bright. On non-corridor stock it used to go straight onto red oxide primer and so it looked slightly darker. Since changing to gret etching primer I have to use undercoat under the blood.

 

Regarding the D1851 corridor brake third push pulls, I am unsure when th conversions actually took place. If after 1956 it is certain the would have missed blood & custard and carried lined maroon instead.

[11B]

Page 143 of Jenkinson and Essery E LMS Coaches:

BTK D1851 Torpedo vents 5476/5491/ 5496 -converted and renumbered to 3497-3499 which looks very like the leading vehicle in the three car set -the one at the other end could well be a non driving fitted BTK so could be different especially as the roof vents don't appear to be the same.

 

 

Hi all,

 

I have just found this thread whilst looking for some information regarding push-push coaches, and maybe looking to do a conversion!!!

 

A simple question (if you know the answer!!!).... Are the numbers above the ones for BR days?

 

Many thanks

 

Ian

[Leander]

Hi all,

 

I have just found this thread whilst looking for some information regarding push-push coaches, and maybe looking to do a conversion!!!

 

A simple question (if you know the answer!!!).... Are the numbers above the ones for BR days?

 

Many thanks

 

Ian

Yes but prefixed with the owning region (e.g. M or Sc most commonly) and suffixed by the letter M denoting the region responsible for maintenance.

[11B]

LMS Journal no 12 is what you need for this!  This is a set that I have been in the very slow process of modelling for quite some time...

 

The set in the photo in this thread is D1851 BTK/D1999 TO/D1851 BTK

 

They also used a period 2 D1807 TO on the branch, and to quote the said article . "The D1915 conversion, which was undertaken at the same time as that of the D1999 vehicle, could also have been undertaken for use on the same service although I have not seen any evidence of its use there".  He also had not seen any photos of the D1692 conversions.

 

edited to replace TK reference with TO!

 

Hi Jub45565, and everyone else,

 

Hope you could help me out a bit please? How much information is in the book you mention, and are there a good photos or diagrams or both? Or to put it the other way, will this book provide me with all the information needed to make this set of coaches?

 

Many thanks and kind regards

 

Ian

[PhilipT]

Having stumbled across this topic and also being the author of some of the articles mentioned I thought I'd better register with RMweb and post a reply. I got into article writing by accident - Bob Essery wrote an article on Midland Railway motor train (ie pull & Push) carriages in the Preview Issue of Midland Record which contained some errors. On pointing this out to Bob I was asked (Bob can be very persuasive) to write an article setting the record straight and this turned out to be the start of almost 20 years of research and article writing. Beware of putting your head over the parapet!

 

I have written three articles about this RMweb topic:

"LMS standard coaches fitted for motor operation" in LMS Journal No 12 pp12-20

"D1692 coaches for motor train use" in LMS Journal No 22 pp43-45, which fills in a gap in the info I had for the earlier article (with thanks to coachman for giving me the lead to the info)

"Motor trains and the Worth Valley Railway" in Midland Record No 35 pp73-91 (jointly authored with David Pearson and is a case study of motor train operation on the branch where there was probably a greater diversity of stock used than on any other LMS branch worked by such trains)

 

All of these were published by Wild Swan (and may well be still available) and have accompanying photographs but no drawings. Types of coach are listed in the general articles, including running numbers. If your interest is the Worth Valley branch motor trains the last on the above list is the one to have and includes around 20 photographs of the very varied train formations over the 27 years of motor operation. It includes running numbers for some coaches, eg the gangwayed ones, but not specific ones for the non-gangwayed thirds and brake thirds etc.

 

To answer a couple of questions from the posts so far, the only photos I have seen of the D1851/D1999/D1851 motor conversions show them to be painted in unlined BR maroon and the coaches are believed to have been in this formation from mid-1959 until dieselisation in January 1960. The photographs also show various amounts of beading over the steel panel joins, presumably to repair edge rusting at the panel joins.

 

Someone mentioned the letter prefixes and suffixes to the running numbers. At least one of the D1851 driving trailers carried an E prefix whilst retaining the M suffix as a result of the Worth Valley branch becoming part of the North Eastern Region in May 1957.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Phil Tattershall

[Jub45565]

Thanks Phil - I wasn't aware of the Midland Record article so will get myself a copy!  I've had various push pull coaches, and locos, floating around my workbench for ages. I really need to get on with finishing them...

[PhilipT]

Me too.........

[Jub45565]

Thanks again Phil, especially with signing up specifically to aid this topic. My Midland record arrived today and at first flick through there is a whole wealth of ex MR & LNW stock used on the line & around half of the photos are new to me too. Definitely a good addition to my library!

 

Cheers, Pete

[Jub45565]

Hi Phil,

 

The only thing I can add to your research, is a photo I have in:

Steam in the West Riding

J.S Whiteley & G.W. Morrison

D&C

ISBN 0 7153 7121 5

3rd page from the back.

 

This photo shows D41325 in September 1959 leaving Keighley up the worth valley at the head of a D1851/D1999/D1851 set.  This shows one of the D1851s to have a fair amount of raised beading as you note (and the number looks like M3498M), but also clearly shows the D1999 to be lined (neither D1851 is).

 

I looked at this photo again while looking for photos of Stanier/Lemon 2P 0-4-4s. I dont think I have ever seen photos of their use, but know they were - there are definite references to 41902 & 41904 being loaned by Lancaster for use on the branch in 11/50 to 3/51.

 

(edited to remove erroneous note of 41904 later being at Royston, which it never was!)

[PhilipT]

You've beaten me to it, Pete! I was about to own up to my mistake when I saw your post.

 

Have bought a copy of Gavin Morrison's "The Last Decade of British Railways Steam" and found an excellent colour photo on page 30 confirming that the D1999 TO was indeed lined. The date of the photo was 3 June 1960.

 

Humble apologies.

 

It also confirms the E prefix to the number of the leading BTO(Driving) and I'm virtually certain that it's E3499M.

 

Phil

[Covkid]

(Snip)

 

I looked at this photo again while looking for photos of Stanier/Lemon 2P 0-4-4s. I dont think I have ever seen photos of their use, but know they were - there are definite references to 41902 & 41904 being loaned by Lancaster for use on the branch in 11/50 to 3/51.

 

(edited to remove erroneous note of 41904 later being at Royston, which it never was!)

 

 

Just read this thread as a distraction to non corridor motor train coaches.

41902 wasa bit of a traveller then because it was a Ryecroft (Walsall) engine in 1955. 

My modelling timeframe has slipped and I am considering the Walsall - Dudley "Dudley Dasher" in it's pre DMU operation, using the 0-4-4t, an LNWR radial and an Ivatt 2MT tank.  Plenty of variety eh !!!

The benefit in this is an afterrnoon Dudley-Walsall service pushed to Walsall but also hauled a bogie parcel van behind the loco.

 

Thanks for the info 

[PhilipT]

The benefit in this is an afterrnoon Dudley-Walsall service pushed to Walsall but also hauled a bogie parcel van behind the loco.

 

A well known example of LMS motor trains working with tail traffic was on the Buxton branch where the 5.54pm (or thereabouts) service was pushed from Millers Dale to Buxton whilst also pulling a through coach (BCK) which had been removed from the 2.25pm St Pancras to Manchester. Several E R Morten photos exist showing this arrangement.

 

Uniquely, the Buxton branch was worked for most of its motor train period with the loco pushing from Millers Dale and with its smokebox next to the Pull & Push set.