Andy Y Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 N Gauge Society Goes West with its 5th Ready-to-Run Model The N Gauge Society is producing a model of the Hawksworth BG coach as its next ready-to-run model, set for launch in 2013. The model will be the NGS’s 5th R-T-R product, following on from its popular Stove R, Queen Mary Brake Van, LMS Inspection Saloon and BR Independent Snowplough (Model Rail "Model of the Year" 2011.) In the final days of the GWR its last Chief Mechanical Engineer, F W Hawksworth, designed a selection of 64' bogie passenger coaches that are arguably among the most attractive ever produced. After nationalisation, between 1949 and 1951, 45 Guard’s Brake coaches to the same design were produced. The full brakes, or BGs, allowed parcels or passenger luggage to be conveyed in fast trains with the other front-line Hawksworth or BR Mk1 rolling stock. During the late 1960s they were cascaded into parcels and departmental service, before withdrawal in the late 1980s. Several have survived into preservation. The NGS model will be produced by Dapol and will feature a wealth of separately fitted detail, expanding close couplers with NEM sockets and flush glazing. We are grateful to the Didcot Railway Centre who have agreed to allow us to measure and examine "up close" a preserved Hawksworth BG. The model is due for launch at Warley 2013 and is expected to retail at around £25. For tax reasons it will be available to members only. Exact liveries are yet to be decided but are sure to include GWR chocolate and cream, BR carmine, BR carmine and cream, BR maroon and BR blue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 And to go with this - note that as the N Gauge Society have cloned another Ultima model this has two effects 1. With the BG now released RTR it's no longer commercially sensible to do the refurbishment on the Hawksworth tooling. So all the Ultima Hawksworths are 'when they are gone they are gone'. If you wanted a non BG sorry, talk to the NGS. 2. I'm changing policy on avoiding duplicating any one elses kits. Any NGS kit I can do better or cheaper or in a way that will sell outside the NGS is fair game. Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveArkley Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Go for it Alan, the more competition the better the choice for us modellers. Best wishes Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiteswan Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 They look really smart, does anyone know whether these coaches will be "light bar ready", can't see any mention in the first announcements. Caz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim H Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I can understand Etched Pixels' frustrations. I think it's a reasonable assumption that having tooled for the 64' BG Dapol will go on to produce other Hawksworth vehicles as part of the own range. Like many modellers I've got plenty of unbuilt kits that got superseded by RtR models before I got my round tuit. Still got a part-built Ultima BSK, and don't have the confidence I can complete and paint the model to a standard that matches that of the recent RtR stock from Farish and Dapol that it would have to run alongside. Saying that, I'll be putting my name down for BR maroon and BR blue versions. What's the blue/grey version, BTW? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 . . . . . . the N Gauge Society have cloned another Ultima model . . . . . . . . . Yep, I do share your frustration. It is a big shame that they have chosen to duplicate an existing Ultima kit (albeit as a RTR model) as I was following the RMblog on building it. It looks rather good and I was considering that I might get one as a project, but now . . . . . a choice; kit or RTR? And to be fair, Farish do seem to be picking off the NGS kits as RTR models so it does seem like open season. The unfortunate thing is that smaller suppliers are likely to get squeezed and in the end it is the hobby (and the modellers/enthusiasts) who will suffer long term. G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted October 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2012 Hello all, Thanks to Andy Y for ensuring this announcement went live when it did. The final livery selection for this model is not yet determined, so I appeal for anyone with definitive data on liveries to advise us. For example; I am aware of only one Blue/Grey Hawksworth BG on Robert Carroll's site - were there more? Also, I can find very little mention of departmental liveries such as olive, red or yellow - were there any? My understanding is that the chassis/bogies will be light-bar ready. I am not sure how useful light bars will be for a brake coach though - thoughts, anyone? I will be carrying out more research to ensure that in BR Blue days, those vehicles with the gangways removed will be correctly modelled. I can understand the frustration of cottage manufacturers who see products in their ranges superceded by RTR items and I sympathise, but there are some counter-points: 1) The NGS's primary function is to do the best for its members, and they tell us verbally and with their wallets that what they want more than anything are RTR models. 2) Between them, the cottage industries offer such a comprehensive range that it is increasingly difficult to find something that will appeal to our members that does not clash with a pre-existing kit. 3) The advent of rapid prototyping and similar technologies offers the smart cottage industry ways of develping new or niche items that are far faster and cheaper than available previously. 4) Where possible, the NGS does support the cottage manufacturer: our next kit is being produced jointly by Parkside Dundas and TPM, and we have a policy of making available bogies and (for the Stove R) chassis to enable our expensively tooled underframes and running gear to be available for others to benefit from. 5) Some of the cottage industry ranges are now getting a little long-in-the-tooth and as standards from the RTR manufacturers improve it is inevitable that they will become defunct. Please note this is a general observation and I am not referring specifically to any one range or product. If anyone has any suggestions, questions and other comments about this product please feel free to ask! cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Maroon & blue for me then, wonder if this will lead to any other Hawksworth stock???? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Maroon & blue for me then, wonder if this will lead to any other Hawksworth stock???? I too was wondering whether this announcement might lead to Dapol announcing a range of Hawkesworth coaches using this underframe. I guess a lot depends on the nature of the agreement between the NGS and Dapol. As I understand it, for the two NGS RTR models Dapol have thus far produced the NGS own the tooling. For the two NGS products Bachmann have thus far produced, Bachmann have given the NGS a period of exclusivity but retain ownership of the tooling. If the NGS own the tooling, I do not necessarily think one can make the assumption. As to the product itself, as with the Stove "R" and Inspection Saloon especially, I think it is a choice that will hopefully do very well. I shall certainly support the undertaking with a preorder of at least one BR Maroon one myself. I hope that the preorder profile of the Inspection Saloon is looked at when considering where to target the main volume of liveries given that one of the BR Maroon inspection saloon variants is fully subscribed on preorder already. Having said I will support the project, I can though understand Alan's issue, especially when he has thus far done the honourable thing and not sought to encroach on the NGS's "turf" when making product decisions himself. Maybe there could have been alternative model choices for the NGS which wouldn't have impacted on his Ultima range, and this could be especially relevant if the NGS DO own the tooling and no Dapol range of Hawkesworths actually appears! Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted October 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2012 Hello Roy, With the NGS range, one factor we were conscious of was region. So having done the LM Stove and Saloon, the SR brake van and the LNER full brake (albeit "semi" RTR with rolling chassis but kit body) we felt that it was the turn of the WR modeller. Having decided this, a Hawksworth becomes the obvious choice. The deal the NGS has with Dapol is commercially confidential, and we are not privy to Dapol's plans, but I can say the NGS will do all it can to encourage Dapol to look favourably at other Hawksworth items. And if they do not, then we may consider supplying unpainted vehicles that can be fitted with, say, etched sides. It would be nice to find a model that no one has previously done, that will appeal to large numbers of our members, and which builds on our previous range.... unfortunately ticking all of those boxes is a big ask! cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Hi Ben I like the choice , but it is a shame that it does not reach back to GWR livery like the others that do go back to LMS and Southern. That said it does cover a good period. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I like the choice , but it is a shame that it does not reach back to GWR livery like the others that do go back to LMS and Southern. I believe that the first batch of Hawksworths were painted in chocoloate and cream. Although not delivered until just after nationalistion, it took time for BR to settle on the Carmine and Cream livery. Some Hawksworth vehicles were therefore still turned out in pre-nat liveries during this period (albeit without the Great Western crest) and survived for some years before being repainted. I do not know if any BGs are in this category but I am sure the NGS will do their homework on this one. Hornby have produced their 00 gauge version in chocolate and cream so I assume (perhaps niavely) that it is a valid livery for this vehicle. http://www.google.co...29,r:2,s:0,i:72 P.S. I am seriously excited about this choice of model for RTR 5! I have bought previous NGS models but as a Great Western man at heart, this one really floats my boat. I will be buying at least one of each of the steam-era liveries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted October 20, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 20, 2012 Shame about your's Alan as they are lovely models. but This might be enough to make me join the n gauge soc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I do not know if any BGs are in this category but I am sure the NGS will do their homework on this one. Hornby have produced their 00 gauge version in chocolate and cream so I assume (perhaps niavely) that it is a valid livery for this vehicle. The K45/K46 brake is a British Rail vehicle. They in crimson by the time they were produced. The GWR livery is a bit of preservationist make believe. Your period is basically 1949 - ~ 1978, although only one vehicle had gangways by the mid 1970s and that was not in anything like the blue shown but deeply deeply faded and weathered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 The K45/K46 brake is a British Rail vehicle. They in crimson by the time they were produced. The GWR livery is a bit of preservationist make believe. Your period is basically 1949 - ~ 1978, although only one vehicle had gangways by the mid 1970s and that was not in anything like the blue shown but deeply deeply faded and weathered. More limited than I thought, I take reservation forms will be in the next journal, as liveries have not been tied down yet? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted October 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2012 Hello all, Thanks for all the support so far - very much appreciated. Re chocolate and cream GW livery - I am inclined to think that Alan is right. The books I have seen so far are black and white, but judging from the number style (Gill Sans) I think they are probably crimson and cream. What I am not sure of is whether any received Chocolate and Cream to run with Mk1 stock so painted by the WR a little later. As has been said, in preservation Chocolate and Cream has been used, and given sales of the Pullman Stove R (another preservation livery) I strongly suspect that many GWR modellers will support our choice and apply Rule 1. As for BR Blue, at some point (late 60s?) they were freshly painted and ours will be pristine. It is certainly the case that some vehicles lost their gangways at this time, though not all, and we'll need to choose our numbers carefully! cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 As has been said, in preservation Chocolate and Cream has been used, and given sales of the Pullman Stove R (another preservation livery) I strongly suspect that many GWR modellers will support our choice and apply Rule 1. Yup, count me in that category. Some Hawksworth stock certainly received chocoloate and cream (both with and without GWR crests). Whether this included any of the BGs, I am not sure. The topic was hotly debated on the yahoo GWR-elist when horby started releasing their Hawksworth stock but I am not sure what the consensus was. I think that Swindon started applying blood and custard livery in mid-1949 with the last example of chocolate and cream being released to traffic in late 1949. If the first batch of BGs were in 1949 they might have carried chocolate and cream livery but I do not know for sure. The first K45 released to traffic was W290 in 1949. If any are candidate for chocolate and cream livery, it would be these early ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Hello Roy, Having decided this, a Hawksworth becomes the obvious choice. The deal the NGS has with Dapol is commercially confidential, and we are not privy to Dapol's plans, but I can say the NGS will do all it can to encourage Dapol to look favourably at other Hawksworth items. And if they do not, then we may consider supplying unpainted vehicles that can be fitted with, say, etched sides. cheers Ben A. Hi Ben I appreciate (of course) that Dapol's future plans are commercially confidential and that is entirely normal, I wouldn't expect the NGS committee to comment on these even if they have been told. Clearly this is not the place as it is a Public Forum open to non-members, but presumably in due course the NGS membership will be told a little more about the nature of the agreement with Dapol as regards this specific vehicle as we have with the previous? I am sure I am not alone in wanting to know! Regards Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted October 21, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2012 Hello Roy, Sorry for seeming cryptic!! I think while the figures are confidential the terms need not be: As you say, the NGS will own the tooling for the BG we produce. However, the CAD work and tooling is being done in the same factory, and I imagine by the same people, who do that work for Dapol. In the future, if Dapol wish to produce Hawksworth vehicles and wish to use any of our components (roof, chassis, bogies, whatever) then I can say the NGS would look very favourably on that request. Indeed, there is a balance between "sweating the assets" to the financial benefit of the NGS (and our members) and doing our best to "make the numbers work" for Dapol so our members (and all of N Gauge) benefit from an ever wider range of products. Of course, it is also fair to say that having produced our BG, the designers at Dapol will also have a head start when it comes to drawing up CAD designs for any other diagrams of coaches to the same basic bodyshape. Rest assured that if other Hawksworth vehicles do not appear, it will not be due to the NGS being overly greedy! cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted October 21, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2012 Hello Richard Yes, the liveries are still being debated. We're ordering 3000 models, and any one livery is subject to a minimum order of 250; in effect giving us 12 options. We will obviously be doing Chocolate and cream, crimson and cream, plain crimson, BR lined maroon and BR Blue. At least one received blue grey too. Almost undoubtedly there will be two or three different running numbers of the most popular liveries; taking Chocolate and cream as an example it seems sensible to produce the doyen W290 as mentioned above as there appears to be a likelihood this may have been released into service in this livery (perhaps with a little understandable wishful thinking!) as well as 316 which is definitely in this livery, albeit in preservation. For BR Maroon, I have photos of one with just the lining, another (W310W) featuring the lettering "Parcels Train Brake Van - Return to Paddington" so it makes sense there to offer both with the lettering providing some variety. Similarly, we will be careful with any blue ones to match gangway detail with numbers. But I will readily admit that my knowledge of these prototypes is patchy and I would be more than grateful for any definitive data to ensure the liveries we offer as as accurate as possible - albeit with the proviso that we will be doing chocolate and cream on more than one!!!! I have already received some very helpful information via the N Gauge Yahoo chat group; more is welcome. cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixie Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 What's the blue/grey version, BTW? I presume DW150354 - used as a generator car for DW150353 (Mk.1 RSO - possible from a Farish Mk.1, but a lot of cutting!) Converted '63 from W297W, out of use by 1983 and now preserved on the Northampton and Lamport. Pix Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Given the NGS has done two batches (2 different numbers?) of the Stove R in crimson/cream, despite there only ever being one in preservation days in that livery, I think it would be reasonable to assume the demand exists for non-authentic versions. While following the preserved example is the obvious way to go with one choc/cream, why not do the other in the late GWR livery (double waist lining, Gill Sans lettering and crest) as it might have appeared had Nationalisation not taken place? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 As for BR Blue, at some point (late 60s?) they were freshly painted and ours will be pristine. It is certainly the case that some vehicles lost their gangways at this time, though not all, and we'll need to choose our numbers carefully! cheers Ben A. Ben I have the following colour slides from Tony Dyer. All three have their gangways, 309 is partial picture only, but is newly painted - still in shops. Paul Bartlett 5 W301W Hawksworth FB Bogie Swindon 1950 K45 1740 Lined Maroon Southall 19.2.70 6/6a W303W Hawksworth FB Bogie Swindon 1950 K45 1740 Rail blue Clap:Jnct 12.12.69 7 W309W Hawksworth FB Bogie Swindon 1950 K45 1740 RailBlue Swindon Wks May-71 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted October 21, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2012 Hi Paul Thanks for that - useful to know! cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveArkley Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 And to go with this - note that as the N Gauge Society have cloned another Ultima model this has two effects 1. With the BG now released RTR it's no longer commercially sensible to do the refurbishment on the Hawksworth tooling. So all the Ultima Hawksworths are 'when they are gone they are gone'. If you wanted a non BG sorry, talk to the NGS. 2. I'm changing policy on avoiding duplicating any one elses kits. Any NGS kit I can do better or cheaper or in a way that will sell outside the NGS is fair game. Alan Does this mean the Thompsons will be reworked sooner? Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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