The future of loco kit building

[JeremyC]

To be honest I am not bothered one way or the other whether people want to build loco kits or not. I am not interested in dumbing down kits to encourage them. There is far to much pandering to people who can't be bothered to learn how to do anything. <snip>

 

I'm sorry I cannot agree with you; in fact I think this this is the sort of attitude that is very damaging to the hobby by putting people off kit building. It's not a case of pandering to anybody, there needs to be some simple 'dumbed down' kits so people can learn the skills without too much of a loss if it's a disaster. No one is going to start by building a Malcolm Mitchell or similar kit. With help and encouragement some people will try kit building. At the club I'm a member of 2 or 3 members kit build on club nights with more experienced people giving help and advice when required.

 

I wonder if the move to etched kits is part of the problem, cast kits were nearer the plastic kits kids started with in that the parts were ready formed. Metal working from the flat is a skill that takes some learning to do well and needs some workshop facilities that a lot of people probably don't have [or have room for].

 

Given that plastic moulding is very expensive [for the moulds] the material I think may 'save' kit building among the younger generation is resin. My sons both model [not railways] and their choice of kit materials is plastic mouldings, resin, or metal if there's no alternative.

 

 

It seems to me that any decline in kitbuilding (as regards to new entrants) is partly about a lack of easy starter kits, e.g. "bodyline" on r-t-r chassis. <snip.

 

I think this is a valid point, but I don't think starter kits need to fit on RTR chassis. When I started kit building in the 1970s Nucast were regarded as one of the top ranges. The chassis on these were the now much derided 'lump of cast metal', but the fact was, in my experience, you cleaned it up, painted it, put in the wheels and motor, threw on the coupling rods etc and they ran. Good chassis of this type were very simple and gave you confidence to try something more difficult.

 

I've never met the perfect kit, but the nearest has been a Weinert HOe loco. The chassis came ready assembled with motor, wheels and pick ups [you could run it], all you had to do was fit the cylinders and valve gear [supplied part assembled]. Body was good clean whitemetal castings. Even glazing cut to the correct shapes to fit the cab windows was supplied. It was expensive €200+ about 5 years ago, but it was quality all the way, no cost cutting.

 

Jeremy

[Jol Wilkinson]

 

I think this is a valid point, but I don't think starter kits need to fit on RTR chassis.

 

I've never met the perfect kit, but the nearest has been a Weinert HOe loco. The chassis came ready assembled with motor, wheels and pick ups [you could run it], all you had to do was fit the cylinders and valve gear [supplied part assembled].

Jeremy

 

Doesn't that amount to the same thing?

[jjnewitt]

No one is going to start by building a Malcolm Mitchell or similar kit.

 

I did! My first loco kit was a Mitchell Grange. It still needs some work on it and bits of it have been rebuilt several times as a testbed for different ideas but I learnt so much doing it. I think it advanced my education by a few years building it. The most important thing for anyone considering their first loco kit is chosing one that fits together properly regardless of complexity. I can't think of anything more disheartening for a first time builder than starting with something simple that's a swine to put together.

[Clive Mortimore]

 

I know from my job in the trade that a lot of people did buy loco kits "to be built at a later stage". Trouble was, folk didn't realise how quickly time passes and sadly some some passed away leaving their families lots of unopened kit boxes to dispose of.

 

Hi Larry

 

Wasn't you who commented on my post of "Doom" many pages back

[JeffP]

Given the costs of production and marketing, a 5% discount is probably equal to a reduction of between 20% and 25% in their profit. How would you feel if your boss comes to you today and asks you to take a 25% reduction in your salary?

 

Pretty sick. But IF I were in the same position as the trader I spoke to this weekend, I'd rather sell TWO kits and make 75% of the profit, than sell neither, and make none.

 

Don't forget that income = price x volume, so that at each price point there will be a volume that can be expected. Which means that costs etc can be adjusted to give the necessary profit at the projected volume.

 

I put that thought to my trader, and his answer was that it doesn't work, he reckons there is a finite number of kits to be sold and price has no bearing.

 

I further suggested that manufacturers could lower the price of some models once the R&D costs have paid themselves, but he maintains that everyone would wait for the lower price. Everyone? I'm not so sure. I am on a low fixed income, so I DO tend to watch my pennies. I have been waiting for the price of a Lumix TZ30 to drop from it's entry price of £330 to below £200. It shouldn't be long now. Yet it has, apparently, been selling steadily at prices from £330 since it's introduction, so NOT everyone waits.

[Metropolitan]

It seems to me that any decline in kitbuilding (as regards to new entrants) is partly about a lack of easy starter kits, e.g. "bodyline" on r-t-r chassis.

 

But is also about easy availability. I was lucky enough to grow up living close to a specialist model railway shop (Hobbytime, West Wickham). In addition to r-t-r, they stocked loco kits from K's, Wills, Stephen Poole, Jamieson (and no doubt some others as well). They stocked PC coach kits as well as their own extensive BSL range. And there was a drawer of Romford wheels, pick-ups, etc.

 

Not many of this sort of shop exist now as they have been killed off by the discounters. Apart from these bits being readily available, the big advantage was that the proprietor, Denis Hextall, liked to encourage new young modellers and would take time to talk through problems (so long as you didn't go on a busy Saturday morning).

 

Hi Joseph

 

The term "Starter Kit" is a misnomer I believe. Any kit can be a starter kit so long as it is well designed for simple construction. That does not mean lack of detail or fidelity necessarily. I know plenty of examples of what I believe to be good "starter kits" which most would regard as absolute "Finescale" although I dislike the term. The plain fact is that if a kit, be it whitemetal or etched, is properly designed it should be easy to build given a soldering iron, a file and a pair of scissors. There are still those who have a vested interest in making out that some godly amount of skill is involved when there isn't unless you are one of those types who is not happy with anything less than an exhibition masterpiece. And that should not be the point. Not at all.

[Guest Natalie Graham]

Interesting thread this. I can't help thinking the idea of simple 'beginners' kits is a bit of a red herring. Enthusiasm is one of the biggest factors in achieving a successful build. If you really want to build a pacific with Walshaert's valve gear in a fully lined livery (or Justin's Mitchell Grange) then building a generic industrial 0-4-0 is likely to seem more of a chore than a pleasurable introduction into kit building. It isn't as if there isn't a wealth of available wagon and coach kits in all materials, or even platform seats or barrows on which to practice one's kit-building techniques. Not that they really need that much practice, there really isn't anything that difficult, or shouldn't be assuming the kit is of a reasonable standard. It is more about taking it one step at a time and sticking with it. I think the perception of difficulty is more of a barrier to kit building than the actual difficulty of building. Finding a kit you really want to build, is, I feel, more likely to lead to a life of enjoyable kit building than choosing one because it is easy.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Pretty sick. But IF I were in the same position as the trader I spoke to this weekend, I'd rather sell TWO kits and make 75% of the profit, than sell neither, and make none.

 

 

 

I put that thought to my trader, and his answer was that it doesn't work, he reckons there is a finite number of kits to be sold and price has no bearing.

 

I further suggested that manufacturers could lower the price of some models once the R&D costs have paid themselves, but he maintains that everyone would wait for the lower price. Everyone? I'm not so sure. I am on a low fixed income, so I DO tend to watch my pennies. I have been waiting for the price of a Lumix TZ30 to drop from it's entry price of £330 to below £200. It shouldn't be long now. Yet it has, apparently, been selling steadily at prices from £330 since it's introduction, so NOT everyone waits.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Pretty sick. But IF I were in the same position as the trader I spoke to this weekend, I'd rather sell TWO kits and make 75% of the profit, than sell neither, and make none.

 

 

 

I put that thought to my trader, and his answer was that it doesn't work, he reckons there is a finite number of kits to be sold and price has no bearing.

 

I further suggested that manufacturers could lower the price of some models once the R&D costs have paid themselves, but he maintains that everyone would wait for the lower price. Everyone? I'm not so sure. I am on a low fixed income, so I DO tend to watch my pennies. I have been waiting for the price of a Lumix TZ30 to drop from it's entry price of £330 to below £200. It shouldn't be long now. Yet it has, apparently, been selling steadily at prices from £330 since it's introduction, so NOT everyone waits.

 

If this selling well for Panasonic, why would they reduce the price? As sales start to slow, much better to issue a new (slightly improved model) and keep the price high.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Interesting thread this. I can't help thinking the idea of simple 'beginners' kits is a bit of a red herring. Enthusiasm is one of the biggest factors in achieving a successful build. If you really want to build a pacific with Walshaert's valve gear in a fully lined livery (or Justin's Mitchell Grange) then building a generic industrial 0-4-0 is likely to seem more of a chore than a pleasurable introduction into kit building. It isn't as if there isn't a wealth of available wagon and coach kits in all materials, or even platform seats or barrows on which to practice one's kit-building techniques. Not that they really need that much practice, there really isn't anything that difficult, or shouldn't be assuming the kit is of a reasonable standard. It is more about taking it one step at a time and sticking with it. I think the perception of difficulty is more of a barrier to kit building than the actual difficulty of building. Finding a kit you really want to build, is, I feel, more likely to lead to a life of enjoyable kit building than choosing one because it is easy.

 

That ****** Belgian's valve gear has got a lot to answer for when it comes to uncompleted kits!

[Jol Wilkinson]

Pretty sick. But IF I were in the same position as the trader I spoke to this weekend, I'd rather sell TWO kits and make 75% of the profit, than sell neither, and make none.

 

 

 

I put that thought to my trader, and his answer was that it doesn't work, he reckons there is a finite number of kits to be sold and price has no bearing.

 

I further suggested that manufacturers could lower the price of some models once the R&D costs have paid themselves, but he maintains that everyone would wait for the lower price. Everyone? I'm not so sure. I am on a low fixed income, so I DO tend to watch my pennies. I have been waiting for the price of a Lumix TZ30 to drop from it's entry price of £330 to below £200. It shouldn't be long now. Yet it has, apparently, been selling steadily at prices from £330 since it's introduction, so NOT everyone waits.

 

Jeff,

 

quoting consumer electronics retailing is completely irrelevant in this context. It is a much more competetive market with what are effectively continual upgrades of the same product to ensnare the consumer. My two and a half year old Canon G11 has been replaced by new versions twice and the current ones (choice of two, G15 or G1X) are 35% dearer.

 

The relationship between the kit manufacturer and his customers (even those that don't buy anything but think still they are customers) is also quite different. Much closer in fact than the far eastern based electronics brands, who having got your money don't seem to give a stuff about after sales service. At least not as far as Minolta or Canon are, in my experience.

 

It's also my experience that very, very few customers of the "smaller supplier" ask for a discount. They usually understand that the kit manufacturer is operating a low volume, low income business, but are happy to be able to buy the products that they want/need (and which the big multi-national manufacturers don't produce) and enjoy being part of a mutually beneficial relationship.

 

Offering a discount to shift the product may seem logical but it doesn't really apply for most kit manufacturers who, for reasons I have explained earlier in this thread, don't hold large stocks unlike the better known RTR retailers. If you are having a poor show then it might seem tempting, but it can lead to a slippery slope. Other customers might also feel sore that they paid the full price, which may affect their loyalty to that manufacturer in future or make them demand a discount too.

 

I would agree too with the trader about impact of pricing on sales volume. Firstly we aren't talking huge sales volumes, but if you reduced the price by 10% and that reduced your margin by one third, you'd have to sell 50% more to get back to where you started. I don't think that is very likey that reducing a £200 kit to £180 would raise sales by 50%. If someone wants a kit they'll buy it. Whether it costs (in 4mm) £00, £110 or £120 isn't going to make a lot of difference. Having said that, I believe that most kit manufacturers are very conscious of pricing and keep their prices at reasonable levels.

 

The retail margin for off the shelf products sold through retailers is also sometimes inflated to allow for discounting while retaining a reasonable retail margin. Have you ever noticed how many discounted prices are very similar? Usually because the list price is discounted by a common figure (e.g.knock the VAT off).

 

You may not agree, but the smaller manufacturers need support and nurturing, so that the unique products they make will continue to be available. In 4mm in particular we (or at least some of us) are dependant on just a few people for what we want.

 

Jol

[JeffP]

If this selling well for Panasonic, why would they reduce the price? As sales start to slow, much better to issue a new (slightly improved model) and keep the price high.

 

Now that, i don't know, but the price HAS steadily come down, since it's introduction about a year ago, see here:http://www.camerapricebuster.com/Panasonic_Lumix_DMC-TZ30_pc.html

 

Yet loco/wagon/coach kits never do, depite R&D costs being already covered, they go UP due to materials costs. Then kit manufacturers talk about bot selling many.....maybe they would if the kit were cheaper?

 

For example, I'd LOVE a JLTRT Western, and a Peak. I have so far bought neither since at £500 for the kit, a further £300 for power bogies, they are out of my price range.

 

Yes, I am grateful to Pete Waterman for the range of kits he now offers. I just wish I were in a position to take advantage. sadly, I am unlikely EVER to be so. Yet, were he to lower his prices so that the R&D costs of a loco kit were covered by the sale of, say 500 locos, instead of however many he needs to sell now, who knows how many he'd sell? I would certainly buy........

[JeffP]

Jeff,

 

quoting consumer electronics retailing is completely irrelevant in this context. It is a much more competetive market with what are effectively continual upgrades of the same product to ensnare the consumer. My two and a half year old Canon G11 has been replaced by new versions twice and the current ones (choice of two, G15 or G1X) are 35% dearer.

 

The relationship between the kit manufacturer and his customers (even those that don't buy anything but think still they are customers) is also quite different. Much closer in fact than the far eastern based electronics brands, who having got your money don't seem to give a stuff about after sales service. At least not as far as Minolta or Canon are, in my experience.

 

It's also my experience that very, very few customers of the "smaller supplier" ask for a discount. They usually understand that the kit manufacturer is operating a low volume, low income business, but are happy to be able to buy the products that they want/need (and which the big multi-national manufacturers don't produce) and enjoy being part of a mutually beneficial relationship.

 

Agreed, and I ONLY did so because I was prepared to buy TWO whole kits, (kit, all wheels, motor and gearbox, pickups and couplings), in one transaction.

 

I did once ask another kit manufacturer if I could get a discount for buying FOUR kits at once, and got one. Not much, but worth my while asking. It bought me the wheels for an 0-6-0 kit. At THAT time, I'd probably have bought anyway, having been left some money, but now? Not so.

 

You may not agree, but the smaller manufacturers need support and nurturing, so that the unique products they make will continue to be available. In 4mm in particular we (or at least some of us) are dependant on just a few people for what we want.

 

Jol

 

Oh, but on the contrary, I DO agree, most strongly. I would not expect small items discounted, nor would I even think of asking for any discount off a kit on it's own. But bought with another kit? And all the wheels, etc etc? yes, I think I would, again.

 

In the past I have berated some manufacturers for buying up kit ranges, then NOT re-issuing them. I HATE to see stuff disappear, usually because it's something I would like, and I usually find out it existed JUST too late: the ex-MMP Class 07, and the ex-Impetus Ruston DE165 are two that spring to mind: bought by different manufacturers YEARS ago, neither now available. What was the point in buying them, then? yet those manufacturers would go to the wall without OUR continuing support.

 

And as for supporting smaller manufacturers: absolutely! I wish i could have afforded to take over Home of O Gauge........

Long may those people prosper.

[Paul Cram]

In the past I have had discounts from etched kit suppliers when I have purchased more than one item. I have also had substantial discounts from one manufacturer before the business was sold on. If you don't ask you don't get and they can always say no. Whether you continue to buy after that is up to you. The laws of supply and demand will always mean greater sales at a lower price but income isn't profit and profit is the important factor.

[James]

For example, I'd LOVE a JLTRT Western, and a Peak. I have so far bought neither since at £500 for the kit, a further £300 for power bogies, they are out of my price range.

 

Yes, I am grateful to Pete Waterman for the range of kits he now offers. I just wish I were in a position to take advantage. sadly, I am unlikely EVER to be so. Yet, were he to lower his prices so that the R&D costs of a loco kit were covered by the sale of, say 500 locos, instead of however many he needs to sell now, who knows how many he'd sell? I would certainly buy........

 

From what I understand a lot of the R&D was written off by the great man himself - so if you paid the true cost it would be even higher.

[MarkC]

That ****** Belgian's valve gear has got a lot to answer for when it comes to uncompleted kits!

That ****** Belgian's valve gear has got a lot to answer for when it comes to uncompleted kits!

 

 

Good point - it's not for the beginner, for sure.

Still, look on the bright side - suppose, a lá 44767, that Stevenson's valve gear had become de rigeur - we'd be truly doomed!

 

But we digress...

 

Back OT, this has been a fascinating thread to follow. Are we any further forward though? We've had a big mix of opinions - some prefer RTR bodies with better chassis, some are happy with RTR chassis with a variety of body kits, we have arguments about various forms of suspension vs simple 'fixed' chassis, plus, inevitably, issues about track gauge etc . As experienced modellers this is all good stuff, but I fear that for a newbie this can all get too complicated. Thanks to all who have contributed so far;it's been fascinating.

 

Mark

[artisan100]

On the subject of discounts (although I agree we're off the thread a bit here), if someone comes along and asks to buy, say, 100 coach dynamos in bulk then I haven't had to sit and count out those castings into individual packets, so saving my time and packing costs - which can be reflected in a discount. On the other hand, if someone were to want to buy 100 coach kits I would still have to spend all the time picking the individual components and then have the associated packaging costs, so what saving could I pass on in a discount? And if I haven't made a saving, why should I receive less income?

 

Geoff

Comet Models

[JeffP]

Which is a fair enough comment.

 

I can't argue with your logic, but wonder if selling TWO kits at slightly less profit is better than selling none at all?

[James]

I can't argue with your logic, but wonder if selling TWO kits at slightly less profit is better than selling none at all?

 

If you can afford to wait to get the full price for both then it's not.

[billbedford]

Guys on the DJH stand are likely to be just employees, with no incentive to make extra sales.

[t-b-g]

Which is a fair enough comment.

 

I can't argue with your logic, but wonder if selling TWO kits at slightly less profit is better than selling none at all?

 

That is based on an assumption that if you don't buy them that they will remain unsold.

 

I don't know what you do or did for a living but imagine if your employer said "Your wage should be £100 per day but as you are working 5 days this week I expect a bulk discount and will only pay you £90 per day and keep the other £10 for myself".

 

That is basically what you are asking the seller to do. You seem to think that some of the seller's income/profit belongs in your pocket not his.

 

I have been offered discount by some model railway kit producers, for bulk purchases and because I give them a fair amount of repeat custom. That is their choice and I am most grateful but I don't get upset if I am not offered any.

 

There is no harm whatsoever asking for a discount but being upset because the kit seller didn't want to take a cut in their income is a bit much. That 5% or whatever would pay a chunk of the stand rental and the seller would then have to find it from elsewhere. If they sell the two kits at full price later on, then that income is there and doesn't have to be found from elsewhere.

 

From speaking to many traders, I am pretty sure that nobody gets rich from model railways and we should be greatful that so many folk are willing to put their time and effort into producing all the things we need for so little reward.

[Guest Natalie Graham]

That is based on an assumption that if you don't buy them that they will remain unsold.

 

 

And the assumption that the seller has already covered the cost of buying the stock. Sellers don't make a profit on every item they sell, they only start to make a profit once they have sold enough to cover the costs of stocking them. It the seller has bough in say 10 kits then he probably needs to sell six at full price just to get his money back, another couple to account for a proportion of the fixed costs of running his business and then if he's managed to shift the first eight he can start to earn a return on his money and his efforts. If, for example, he hasn't sold any yet then if he gives a discount on the first two he puts off the point he breaks even on the deal. What happens then if the customer shows off his new purchases and tells all his mates (or posts on RMWeb) that you get a good deal from this trader he will give you a discount if you buy two? He sells out quickly at the discounted price and ends up making no money for his effort. The seller has already calculated the price that makes it worth his while stocking them, You are essentially asking the trader to give you some of his income. You may as well start asking people in the street to give you a fiver..

[JeffP]

Now this is going a bit far, isn't it? Asking people for money in the street? My employer telling me I have to work for 10% less?

 

Come on.

 

For a start, if you never ask, you never get.

Secondly, I was not "upset" not to get a discount, I just feel that the supplier in question's prices are quite high, so, if I were buying an all-in deal, which I was, then doubling it, I asked for a discount. Even a tenner or so, offered, would have clinched the sale. When none was offered, i politely declined to buy, which is also my right.

 

Some on here may feel I'm now moaning. Not so. I'm trying to establish just what the relationship IS between volume of kits sold and profit.

 

So far, I seem to be in a minority of one in believing that some model prices are too high. But when inflation is running at, what? 2.7%, how come models and materials go up by 10%? Note: NOT 9.9% or 10.1% but EXACTLY 10%.

 

I came across much the same this year with a certain purveyor of Fish-Oil capsules. The price went up by 10% EXACTLY 10%

Three months later, it went up by ANOTHER 10% including 10% of the original increase. And lo and behold, three months later, ANOTHER 10% increase.

 

Each one was EXACTLY 10% too. E-mailing them produced the expected blather about materials costs, but to someone with qualifications in maths, THREE increases ofr EXACTLY 10% isn't really feasible.

 

I feel that some of the larger manufacturers do it a bit brown in Railway models too.

 

I appreciate that not everyone will agree. This IS Britain, where we stoically accept whatever price anyone tells us to pay, no matter what.

 

But can we, at least, move away from personalising it? I am as unlikley to ask anyone for money in the street as the next man........although I have been asked to take pay-cuts and pay-freezes in the past.

[queensquare]

Now this is going a bit far, isn't it? Asking people for money in the street? My employer telling me I have to work for 10% less?

 

Come on.

 

For a start, if you never ask, you never get.

Secondly, I was not "upset" not to get a discount, I just feel that the supplier in question's prices are quite high, so, if I were buying an all-in deal, which I was, then doubling it, I asked for a discount. Even a tenner or so, offered, would have clinched the sale. When none was offered, i politely declined to buy, which is also my right.

 

I appreciate that not everyone will agree. This IS Britain, where we stoically accept whatever price anyone tells us to pay, no matter what.

 

But can we, at least, move away from personalising it? I am as unlikley to ask anyone for money in the street as the next man........although I have been asked to take pay-cuts and pay-freezes in the past.

 

I must admit I do have a bit of sympathy with Jeff here. Whilst I wouldn't expect to get a discount or get upset if turned down I would certainly have no qualms about asking for one - particularly if spending the thick end of two grande.

 

Jerry

[t-b-g]

I agree, no harm in asking but likewise no harm in the seller saying no!

 

I wonder of the kit asking price had been higher by £20 per kit (not a lot on the sort of kits we seem to be discussing) and a discount of £30 for buying 2 was offered, would a deal have been done?