Horsetan Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Branchlines do, or at least did in 2005 when my catalogue was printed, split axles, both 2mm and 1/8" diameter. There was a small selection of wheels available as well, two Manning Wardle types, Terrier, and industrial Garrett. Not sure if they are still available, I can't make head nor tail of their webpage/bloggy thing. The 2011 list I had last year suggests they're still available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted December 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 5, 2012 Someone was doing them in 7mm to suit slaters wheels but it left you having to connect the tyre and the axle ends. Typically people drill troung the boss and solder a wire down the back of a spoke. Doing this and various ways of making split axles has appeared in the Gazette over the years. In general using either wipers or the sprung type pick-ups is easier for the less skilled. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted December 5, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 5, 2012 I find this thread strange. Bill has posted a well thought out potential chassis idea to make life easier for kit builders. Within a few post someone asks about split chassis, so the discussion has began about chopping axles in half, shorting out the insulation on the backs of wheels etc. Surely if this about the future of kit building we should be encouraging any idea that makes chasssis building easier for those who wish to make kits than adding in more complications. Anyhow aren't split chassis useless for DCC? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold queensquare Posted December 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 5, 2012 I find this thread strange. Bill has posted a well thought out potential chassis idea to make life easier for kit builders. Within a few post someone asks about split chassis, so the discussion has began about chopping axles in half, shorting out the insulation on the backs of wheels etc. Surely if this about the future of kit building we should be encouraging any idea that makes chasssis building easier for those who wish to make kits than adding in more complications. Anyhow aren't split chassis useless for DCC? Hi Clive, I don't think you understand what split chassis are. Essentially it is a means of pickup whereby the two sides of the chassis are electrically isolated from each other, including the axles. The wheels are live to the chassis. This has numerous advantages; all wheels pickup, there are no wire pickups to fit and adjust, brake gear and other details can be soldered to the chassis sides without any fear of shorting as it is all live to that side of the chassis. This method of pickup is standard in 2FS where reliable pickup is probably the most important factor in obtaining a reliable loco. The down sides are that the body must be isolated from the chassis - easily acheived with a slip of paper/5thou plasticard and that axles need to be split . In 2mm we have wheels on stubb axles which are joined by isolating 'muffs', in the larger scales it is often a case of adapting wheels designed for wiper pickups to split axle which is where the perceived complication comes in. This thread is currently discussing ways to make chassis building easier for the beginner. Split axle, with its simple and reliable pickup, is potentially very simple although to get the most from it chassis and wheels need to have this designed in from the start. A quick look here should make the 2mm approach clear http://www.2mm.org.uk/standards/locochassis.htm As for DCC compatability, split chassis is as compatable as any other form of pickup. Jerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Spot on, Jerry. The only thing missing is commercial wheelsets and then this cast approach has everything going for it. The speed of assembly of a chassis depends on two things: it has to be simple to put together in perfect alignment and has to have as few moving parts as possible. Pickups are arguably the most troublesome part of a chassis with regard to reliable running. Alignment issues are caused by the folding of spacers, and frames out of true. The metal brake shoes result in shorting and /or placement too far from the wheels. The only other main problem with assembling a running chassis is the meshing of motor and gears - much improved by some of the excellent boxes available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckjumper Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 It would HAVE to be simpler than the present method with drill, piercing saw and Araldite, mind...... I'm a bit perplexed: What isn't simple about drilling two 1mm holes and making three small cuts with a piercing saw? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckjumper Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 The down sides are that the body must be isolated from the chassis We don't even have that issue in 7mm, Jerry. Slaters sell insulated hornguides with brass axleboxes so the chassis remains electrically dead. Solder a wire from axlebox to motor and off you go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold queensquare Posted December 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 5, 2012 We don't even have that issue in 7mm, Jerry. Slaters sell insulated hornguides with brass axleboxes so the chassis remains electrically dead. Solder a wire from axlebox to motor and off you go. Like I say, you don't know you're born you 7mm boys........ Jerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 We don't even have that issue in 7mm, Jerry. Slaters sell insulated hornguides with brass axleboxes so the chassis remains electrically dead. .... I think Kean-Maygib (used to) make a 4mm version of that. Not exactly user-friendly, in the sense that you never knew how long your chosen glue would last...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted December 5, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 5, 2012 Someone was doing them in 7mm to suit slaters wheels but it left you having to connect the tyre and the axle ends. Typically people drill troung the boss and solder a wire down the back of a spoke. Doing this and various ways of making split axles has appeared in the Gazette over the years. In general using either wipers or the sprung type pick-ups is easier for the less skilled. Don Certainly, wipers are easier if you have less highly developed skills. But I don't think that there is nothing intrinsically difficult about split frames if you have a few basic modelling skills, including being very quick with a soldering iron on a wheel tread. I bet there are a few folk out there who can build a kit but would think twice about soldering a shorting wire to the steel tread of a plastic centered wheel, then working out how to insulate brake hangers/cross shafts and the body from the frames. I did build one loco with split frames. I even did the saw cut & fill with araldite trick on a 2mm pony wheel axle. It all worked perfectly well but took me three times longer than fitting wipers. The loco performs no better or worse than any other on the layout. There are enough perfectly good running locos with wipers and plunger pick ups for me to not be sold on the idea of split frames. Not on the skill level involved but on the work done versus reward scale. I prefer simple wipers as sprung plungers seem a bit of a headache if they get muck in them and start sticking. I have seen locos which had to be completely stripped down to fix one dodgy pick up. They also tend to act like brakes on the wheels unless the springs are very fine. Some of the cleverest pick ups I have seen (on locos that work superbly too) are those done by the late Chris Matthewman. As an example, on a 4-4-0 tender loco, he used a combination of the "American" system plus conventional wipers. He used Romford/Markits driving wheels (depending on how many years ago it was built!). On one side, the loco drivers and the bogie wheels, which were made live to one side, picked up. On the other side, the loco drivers plus the tender wheels (live to the other side). So we have 4 wheels one side and 5 the other picking up and only two wipers in sight. Dead simple and highly effective. The only complication was an insulated bogie pivot, which was a bit of plastic tube and a couple of slivers of plasticard around the bogie mounting pin. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I'm a bit perplexed: What isn't simple about drilling two 1mm holes and making three small cuts with a piercing saw? Well now: that depends on whether you have the required drill bits, drilling machine, saw and SKILL to actually do it. I know for certain that many people find it very difficult to keep a piercing saw going where they want it to. And practising on Slater's axles ain't cheap! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 The problem is that there are no products available not that the there is no theoretical gain by going split chassis. I have to admit my one and only attempt at splitting an axle and making wheels non-insulated failed miserably. both the drilling of hardened steel on a curve and the cutting proved near impossible, but the final keeping the parts glued together in a straight line even harder. Not to mention the destruction of a perfectly good set of wheels. I'm not sure if a split axle could be developed as a product, but un-isolated wheels shouldn't be that difficult. While it remains a scratch builder's skill or involves sophisticated tooling it will remain niche and unpopular. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Well now: that depends on whether you have the required drill bits, drilling machine, saw and SKILL to actually do it. I know for certain that many people find it very difficult to keep a piercing saw going where they want it to. And practising on Slater's axles ain't cheap! The problem of keeping a piercing saw going straight is the blades, people insist on cheap blades and not changing one that does not. They keep going saying to themselves it is a new blade it must be me. Then trying to use the wrong choice of blade for the job. It is certianly easier to use a bench press for drilling the holes but it is not the only way. I think some try making up lots of reasons why they can't do something rather than thinking of different ways of doing it that suits them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckjumper Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I think Kean-Maygib (used to) make a 4mm version of that. Not exactly user-friendly, in the sense that you never knew how long your chosen glue would last...... Well the sensible way is belt & braces; Araldite 24 or Devcon2 plus two 14BA bolts. a little forward thinking by marking and drilling the holes on the centre line of the ride height makes set up child's play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 The problem is that there are no products available not that the there is no theoretical gain by going split chassis. I have to admit my one and only attempt at splitting an axle and making wheels non-insulated failed miserably. both the drilling of hardened steel on a curve and the cutting proved near impossible, but the final keeping the parts glued together in a straight line even harder. Not to mention the destruction of a perfectly good set of wheels. I'm not sure if a split axle could be developed as a product, but un-isolated wheels shouldn't be that difficult. While it remains a scratch builder's skill or involves sophisticated tooling it will remain niche and unpopular. If you file a small flat on the axle you then drilling on a flat not a round. Most axles I think are silver steel, yes harder than mild, but not hardened. You also only do one cut at a time so the axle is never in two parts unless you are sleeving them. Agian most things do not need sophisticated tooling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 The problem is that there are no products available not that the there is no theoretical gain by going split chassis. I have to admit my one and only attempt at splitting an axle and making wheels non-insulated failed miserably. both the drilling of hardened steel on a curve and the cutting proved near impossible, but the final keeping the parts glued together in a straight line even harder. Not to mention the destruction of a perfectly good set of wheels. I'm not sure if a split axle could be developed as a product, but un-isolated wheels shouldn't be that difficult. While it remains a scratch builder's skill or involves sophisticated tooling it will remain niche and unpopular. Exactoscale seem to have done it. Albeit at a price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold queensquare Posted December 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 5, 2012 I must admit that all my 2mm stuff uses split axle as all our chassis components are designed for that and I find it much easier than fitting pickups. Everything I have built in the bigger scales has used wipers, simply because that is the system the components are designed for. I find split axle much easier but, as I said thats because its designed in. Modifying components to suit would certainly add another layer of complication. I agree with Tony regarding plungers - fine when they work, a pain when they get bunged up or need adjusting. Jerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted December 5, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 5, 2012 If you file a small flat on the axle you then drilling on a flat not a round. Most axles I think are silver steel, yes harder than mild, but not hardened. You also only do one cut at a time so the axle is never in two parts unless you are sleeving them. Agian most things do not need sophisticated tooling. I did mine in 4mm scale without drilling the holes. I cut an L shaped slot, filled it with Araldite, let it cure and then cut from the other side of the axle until the cut went through the araldite, then filled that side. For the driven axle, I did it twice, each side of the gearbox. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckjumper Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Well now: that depends on whether you have the required drill bits, drilling machine, saw and SKILL to actually do it. I know for certain that many people find it very difficult to keep a piercing saw going where they want it to. And practising on Slater's axles ain't cheap! Seems like you're building up a wall in your mind that it's a difficult operation - it really isn't difficult. I use standard 1mm (and smaller) drill bits from the cheapo multi packs in a hand-held mini drill - you can even file a small flat and pop mark the axle if you're concerned about a wandering drill. You're not trying to cut the decorative splashers for a GNR Single; three short cuts of about 5mm each with a 1/0 blade from Squires of Eileen's (I find they run true) - will go through the axle like a knife through butter and is over in seconds, with little opportunity for wandering. Is 450mm of 3/16" mild steel rod on ebay for £1.25 to practice on cheap enough? And I bet you'd only practice on it the once before realising how simple it really is. It's easy to convince yourself it can't be done. If you try it I think you'll be surprised at just how easy it really is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted December 5, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 5, 2012 Hi Clive, I don't think you understand what split chassis are. Essentially it is a means of pickup whereby the two sides of the chassis are electrically isolated from each other, including the axles. The wheels are live to the chassis. This has numerous advantages; all wheels pickup, there are no wire pickups to fit and adjust, brake gear and other details can be soldered to the chassis sides without any fear of shorting as it is all live to that side of the chassis. This method of pickup is standard in 2FS where reliable pickup is probably the most important factor in obtaining a reliable loco. The down sides are that the body must be isolated from the chassis - easily acheived with a slip of paper/5thou plasticard and that axles need to be split . In 2mm we have wheels on stubb axles which are joined by isolating 'muffs', in the larger scales it is often a case of adapting wheels designed for wiper pickups to split axle which is where the perceived complication comes in. This thread is currently discussing ways to make chassis building easier for the beginner. Split axle, with its simple and reliable pickup, is potentially very simple although to get the most from it chassis and wheels need to have this designed in from the start. A quick look here should make the 2mm approach clear http://www.2mm.org.u...locochassis.htm As for DCC compatability, split chassis is as compatable as any other form of pickup. Jerry Hi Jerry Split chassis, I have built a Ratio MR 2-4-0 class 1. I have toiled with many a Mainline/Bachmann 204 hp 0-6-0 shunter chassis when the axle insulator decides to fatigue. It is not very encouraging to a new kit builder to say to him you need to cut your axles in half with tools you possibly will not have. To ease chassis building Bill has designed a cast one piece chassis, with a nylon keeper plate http://www.mousa.biz/info/2012/12/a-little-closer/Bill has read what some have seen as a discouragement to chassis building by potential new kit builders and come up with something different. If there is going to be a future in kit building then ideas on improving the product need to be encouraged. If you go back through this thread you can see Bill and I are not mates but I think his chassis idea will be good for the hobby. Clive Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelester Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 The problem is that there are no products available not that the there is no theoretical gain by going split chassis. I have to admit my one and only attempt at splitting an axle and making wheels non-insulated failed miserably. both the drilling of hardened steel on a curve and the cutting proved near impossible, but the final keeping the parts glued together in a straight line even harder. Not to mention the destruction of a perfectly good set of wheels. I'm not sure if a split axle could be developed as a product, but un-isolated wheels shouldn't be that difficult. While it remains a scratch builder's skill or involves sophisticated tooling it will remain niche and unpopular. Items required: (1) Branchlines 1/8" split axles: £8.25 for three; (2) Branchlines split axle jig: £10.50; (3) 24 hour epoxy glue; and (4) Vaseline. Assemble axles (don't forget plastic washers), filling female parts with epoxy. Smear vaseline over perspex jig. Place axles in jig and tighten screws. Using multi-meter from toolbox to check that axles are not shorting, squeeze ends of axles together. Wait 24 hours. Job done. Three lovely split axles for 4mm locomotive construction. No Machine tooling required. ... if you do have the lathe, then you can save on the £8.25 recurring costs for axle parts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Are Branchlines still going then, their last update http://branchlines.blogspot.co.uk/ is 2008. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 For all the talk of the alleged ease of producing split frame pick up, it doesn't have a particularly good reputation when a applied to commercial RTR locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Are Branchlines still going then, their last update http://branchlines.blogspot.co.uk/ is 2008. Regards They had a stand at Warley a couple of weeks ago. Mike Wlitshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metropolitan Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Split Chassis?? Again a rediculous nonsense that only goes to further overcomplicate things! Who ever comes up with these ideas??????? Does some-one have a death wish for loco kitbuilding? Bachmann tried it with serious consequenses. Forgive me if I am repeating myself but there is nothing wrong with a simple well built rigid OO chassis with PB pickups. If you dont like pickups then with a tender engine just make the loco live on one side and the tender live on the other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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