de Selby Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 As I wish to bring it up to date and continue the story, I have just copied this thread from the old RMweb using Martin Wynne's magical utility. I have recently got back to work on the U Class loco, and am now down to the final few details (sundry lamp brackets, etc.), so hopefully will have the loco complete within the next couple of days, at which point I will post some new photos of it. Once the U is finished, there's a partially completed S Class waiting in the wings, plus a Lough Swilly (3ft gauge) 4-6-2T, likewise unfinished. Plenty to do, then! Alan Here is the old part of the thread: De Selby's Irish Bicycle Works - U Class 4-4-0 by de Selby original page on Old RMweb __________________________________________ ??? posted on Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:49 pm For some time I have been considering starting an Irish thread - as I was born in Ireland I have long had an interest in the railways there. The game was finally up though, when Rob2's eagle eye spotted a tender in the background of a photo I had in another thread, then correctly identified the tender as Great Northern Railway (Ireland). So here's the story of not only that tender, but also what's attached to the front of it. This is a model which I first started many years ago. It lay dormant for long periods while I did things like go to University, move to England, etc. A few years ago I started work on it again and more or less completed it. It is a 4mm scale model of a G.N.R.(I) U Class 4-4-0. So far, this is my only model that is built from scratch, but it hopefully won't be the last. As originally conceived, it was built to 16.5mm gauge and powered by a Triang XT60 motor. This was the smallest I could find at the time but unfortunately the magnet protruded into the cab. The driving wheels were the then newly introduced Stephen Poole items with Romford / Jackson on the bogie / tender. It was in the 1980's (I think) when I was totally blown away and inspired by the Irish models built by Tony Miles. These were built to, effectively, Scalefour standards, but to the correct Irish gauge of 21mm (5' 3"). Tony did things like (famously) building a UG Class 0-6-0 with fully working inside motion. I realised at the time that there was a way forward here, but couldn't hope to come even close to such excellence. I did however modify the superstructure of my U Class so that there was sufficient clearance to accommodate 21mm gauge wheelsets sometime in the future. Fast forward now to about a year ago, and I finally took the plunge to build a new chassis. Apart from being the wrong gauge (if you think 16.5mm looks wrong for 4' 8 1/2" then it's even dafter for 5'3" ) the old mechanism never ran particularly well. This was partly due to pickups only being on the driving wheels, and partly (I have long suspected) to one or more of the driving wheels not being truly concentric. Last March I went on the Missenden Abbey modelling weekend (thoroughly recommended incidentally) at which the new chassis was duly constructed. The driving wheels and motor are carried on a subframe which pivots around the rear axle. A compensating lever carries weight from the front bogie to the front axle, thus hopefully increasing available traction. I'll try to do a diagram illustrating this - it's much easier than trying to describe it! This is the original XT60 based chassis. Not much room in the cab for anything other than magnet! This is the new 21mm gauge chassis. Gibson P4 wheels, High Level gearbox. And this is the loco posed on the new chassis. There will be some detailing to do after the running gear is sorted out. The real U Class were interesting locos. The initial batch of 5 was built in 1915, and were a tender version of the G.N.R.(I) 4-4-2T engines. In 1948 a second batch of 5 were built with minor modifications - a side window cab, and a roller bearing tender of "Stanier" appearance with side sheets turned in at the top. The new engines were turned out in the beautiful G.N.R.(I) livery of Sky Blue with Scarlet framing, and all were named after Irish counties. The earlier engines, up till then black, were also painted blue and given names, after Irish lakes. The class had long association with the Irish North Western route from Dundalk to Enniskillen, and with the "Bundoran Express" workings. The last survivor was withdrawn in 1965. Updates will follow - There's still a fair amount to do to the chassis, then there's the tender to consider...... Alan __________________________________________ Comment posted by Horsetan on Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:18 pm Grand engine there. When might you be having a go at the GNR "S" Class? __________________________________________ Comment posted by gr.king on Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:15 am "Rhapsody in Blue" - at least that was the title of the slide-show covering the GNR(I) that I attended last November. It's satisfying to build unusual models, isn't it? I gather the Bundoran Express was an express largely because intermediate stops would have required a tiresome number of customs examinations on account of the many crossings and re-crossings of the border en route. I feel that a friend of mine will drool over your A2/3 too. It's just what he needs for his proposed Selby layout, if he ever actually makes a start on it........................ __________________________________________ ??? posted on Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:11 am gr.king wrote: It's satisfying to build unusual models, isn't it? It most certainly is, except it normally results in someone producing a RTR version immediately afterwards.. gr.king wrote: I gather the Bundoran Express was an express largely because intermediate stops would have required a tiresome number of customs examinations on account of the many crossings and re-crossings of the border en route. Yes, basically it ran non stop through Northern Ireland to avoid being delayed by customs. Two major sources of traffic were "holiday" type traffic to the seaside town of Bundoran itself, and devout Catholics on pilgrimage to Lough Derg. The railhead for Lough Derg was Pettigo, on the Bundoran branch. There are photos taken shortly before the line was closed of Pettigo station with hundreds of pilgrims, filling all available platform space. Horsetan wrote: When might you be having a go at the GNR "S" Class? Funny you should mention that Horsetan, but in another corner of the workbench (see below) is what will hopefully become S Class 173 "Galtee More" . This is the Terry MacDermott / Studio Scale Models etched kit. Like (I suspect) many modellers I have far too many projects on the go at one time, though I am not planning to do anything further to the "S" until the "U" is complete. Alan TMD / SSM S Class at an early stage of construction __________________________________________ Comment posted by Horsetan on Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:33 am de Selby wrote: Horsetan wrote: When might you be having a go at the GNR "S" Class? Funny you should mention that Horsetan, but in another corner of the workbench (see below) is what will hopefully become S Class 173 "Galtee More" . This is the Terry MacDermott / Studio Scale Models etched kit.... Is this kit still available? I don't seem to have any contact details for Mr. MacDermott or SSM. Ooh look, there's a kit for the GNR(I) "U" Class! __________________________________________ Comment posted by Adam on Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:05 pm A rather nice model of an attractive prototype that, even with the new chassis being the correct gauge there still looks to be a rather large overhang t the front! Does this mean the distant prospect of a layout? It isn't as if Irish P4 layouts are exactly common... Adam __________________________________________ ??? posted on Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:19 pm Horsetan wrote: Is this kit still available? I don't seem to have any contact details for Mr. MacDermott or SSM. I believe it is, or shortly will be. SSM recently changed hands and the new proprietor intends to reintroduce the full range of kits - including a couple that haven't been available for a while. I have the details at home, will post them this evening. Horsetan wrote: Ooh look, there's a kit for the GNR(I) "U" Class! de Selby wrote: gr.king wrote: It's satisfying to build unusual models, isn't it? It most certainly is, except it normally results in someone producing a RTR version immediately afterwards.. or a super detailed etched kit......... Still at least there was a gap of about 20 years between the two in this case! The Worsley Works etches are supplied with the 1948 pattern of tender so build most easily into the later variant of the class (though both types of cab are supplied). Hopefully Allen Doherty will add the older pattern of tender to his range at some point in the future. I have to confess I actually cheated, using a mainframe from one of the Worsley kits as a template to mark out the new frames for 197, above . Adam wrote: there still looks to be a rather large overhang t the front! The front bogie needs to move forward slightly (it isn't attached to the frames in the photo). This will require a small amount of metal to be removed from the wheel arches on the frames. I wish I had realised this before spraying the frames black, but still, not a major disaster. Adam wrote: Does this mean the distant prospect of a layout? Hopefully. But in the medium term, and before I build much more stock, some form of micro-layout would probably be a good idea. This would act as a proving ground for running over trackwork, coupling & uncoupling, etc. Alan __________________________________________ Comment posted by Horsetan on Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:03 pm I did once think about whether it might be possible to have a go at building a model of Bredin's GSR "B1a", but then realised that they were only allowed to work Dublin (Kingsbridge) - Cork because of their weight. Maybe a "B2"? They were not a bad looking engine either, though apparently better when converted from four cylinders to two..... __________________________________________ Comment posted by paudie27 on Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:09 pm That is a georgous Engine. The Loco's of that era were really beautiful and colourful. __________________________________________ ??? posted on Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:25 pm Firstly, here is the info on Studio Scale Models: taken from "New Irish Lines" Nov 2008 "we have good news from our member Des Sullivan" "I am delighted to formally announce that I have taken over Studio Scale Models from Paul Greene as of last July. A big thank you is owed to Paul as he has been most supportive and understanding in helping to get a handle on the various elements of the business. The entire range will be re-released ......... Some models will not be available right away (T2, SG and Brake Van) as moulds need remade for some castings......" The contact given is: dezsullivan@eircom.net The SSM range is : Locos GSWR class J15 0-6-0 GNR(I) class SG 0-6-0 GNR(I) class S 4-4-0 GNR(I) T2 4-4-2T MGWR class E 0-6-0T Coaches GSWR 6-wheeled 5 coach set GNR(I) L12 brake third GNR(I) K15 open third some GNR(I) coach parts e.g. underframe, roof, bogies are available as separate items. Very useful for completing Worsley works etched coaches. Wagons GNR(I) 20 ton Brake Van MGWR Convertible Wagon GSWR Convertible wagon So all in all, quite a good range of kits available. Horsetan wrote: it might be possible to have a go at building a model of Bredin's GSR "B1a"........ .......Maybe a "B2"? They were not a bad looking engine either There have been drawings published of the B1a, and 247 Developments do the nameplates for 800. I'm not aware of any drawings for the 400 class, though I could well be wrong. Building a "400" would be enlivened by the fact that I don't think any two were identical! Certainly agree that the were impressive looking engines, though . paudie27 wrote: That is a georgous Engine. The Loco's of that era were really beautiful and colourful. Thank you. Interesting to note, though, that it was painted black until 1949! So the glorious blue livery (though it first appeared in the 1930s) was about in the same era as B.R. Standards, Ivatt's Flying Pigs and the like. Quite a difference! Alan __________________________________________ Comment posted by Horsetan on Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:02 pm de Selby wrote: Firstly, here is the info on Studio Scale Models:.... Excellent, thanks. The J15 would be a good one to start with, seeing as there are two survivors! __________________________________________ Comment posted by Patrick on Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:11 pm Fabulous locomotive... the GNR's sky blue livery is one of the most handsome liveries ever to adorn a steam loco! There's now a website for Studio Scale Models at http://www.studio-scale-models.com. Hopefully they'll add a couple of photos shortly. Horsetan wrote: I did once think about whether it might be possible to have a go at building a model of Bredin's GSR "B1a", but then realised that they were only allowed to work Dublin (Kingsbridge) - Cork because of their weight. Maybe a "B2"? They were not a bad looking engine either, though apparently better when converted from four cylinders to two..... And if the last surviving B1a was restored to working order, it wouldn't be allowed anywhere near the mainline because it's now out of gauge even for the Dublin-Cork line on which it originally ran! Leinster Models produce an etched kit for the B1a in 7mm scale and, I think, in 4mm scale as well. __________________________________________ ??? posted on Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:31 am Horsetan wrote: Excellent, thanks. The J15 would be a good one to start with, seeing as there are two survivors! It builds into a good model of the saturated version - similar to preserved 184, but with the delightfully archaic double smokebox doors. Edit: Des Sullivan of Studio Scale Models points out that the later pattern smokebox door can be supplied with the kit if requested. Patrick wrote: Fabulous locomotive... the GNR's sky blue livery is one of the most handsome liveries ever to adorn a steam loco! Thanks, Patrick. I can never make up my mind which is my favourite. But it's definitely a toss up between GNR(I) blue and the NCC's version of crimson lake. Patrick wrote: And if the last surviving B1a was restored to working order......... it's now out of gauge even for the Dublin-Cork line on which it originally ran! Wouldn't surprise me. I expect the Civils, and the Disease & Hazard crew might have something to say about the axle loading as well. Alan __________________________________________ ??? posted on Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:54 pm I started to look at the bogie mounting arrangements last night. It became clear that the amount of metal needing removal so that the bogie would sit in the correct position (and the wheels not foul the frames), was rather more than I had initially thought. This is what comes from trying to take shortcuts! I began by carefully unsoldering the overlay frames from the front end. I'll need to repaint the front end once they're put back. The reason for painting the chassis at this stage in construction was so that the areas behind the driving wheels were painted. Redoing the front end shouldn't be a major problem. At least that's my story! With the overlays removed major surgery commenced to allow the bogie to sit further forward. According to the GA drawing, the front bogie wheel at it's furthest forward comes just to the rear of the front buffer beam. It's pretty much in the right place now, though care needs to be taken that it won't foul the buffer beam when going round curves. With the bogie set, the overlays can be reattached and the wheel arches adjusted for clearance. Overlay frames unsoldered, and a considerable amount of metal removed from the front of the frames to allow the bogie to sit correctly. Seems just about in the right place now......... To minimise the risk of the coupling rods fouling the running plate, the crankpin holes are carefully opened out so that the Alan Gibson crankpin nuts can be fitted "back to front" giving an almost flush fixing on the outside of the rods. Opening up the crankpin holes to allow a flush fixing on the outside of the rods. Alan __________________________________________ Comment posted by b1gy1n on Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:05 pm Hi can anyone help i'm trying to locate in O gauge 7mm/ft,2ft dia wheels 8 spoke for some Schull and Skibereen coaches, many thanks regards Marc __________________________________________ Comment posted by Adam on Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:48 pm b1gy1n wrote: Hi can anyone help i'm trying to locate in O gauge 7mm/ft,2ft dia wheels 8 spoke for some Schull and Skibereen coaches, many thanks regards Marc So you mean 14mm, 8 spoke for (presumably) 21mm gauge track? Not sure where you'd get the axles from (I guess the 'S4' Irish modellers have some supplies?) but Alan Gibson do a suitable wheel, the OO type flange probably being about right: http://www.scalefour...#Carriagewheels Adam __________________________________________ ??? posted on Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:25 pm Adam wrote: I guess the 'S4' Irish modellers have some supplies? The Scalefour Society stores - http://www.scalefour.org - can supply 2mm pinpoint axles for 21mm. gauge. These are available by mail order to members or at the stores stand at Scaleforum. Alan __________________________________________ ??? posted on Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:51 pm I mentioned in the original post that I'd try and produce a diagram to explain how I was attempting to build the chassis. So here it is. The motor, gearbox and wheels are carried on an inner subframe. This pivots around the rear driving axle. The outer frames have slots around the front driving axle so it is free to move up and down. The front bogie bears on a plate to which is attached a compensating lever (two, actually). Weight is thus tranferred to the front end of the inner subframe, hopefully improving traction. The tender chassis will be of the "free bogie" type. The purpose is to transfer weight to the rear of the locomotive, again improving traction. That's the theory, now back to the model, and here is the bearing plate / compensating lever assembly. I came to the conclusion that the bogie needed some limited sideplay and therefore cut a slot for the bogie pivot to move from side to side. This was achieved by drilling two holes then carefully joining them together by filing. Bogie pivot and compensating arrangement. The next problem was how to arrange for the pivot to normally return to the centre point of the slot? After much head scratching and some trial and error I devised an arrangement using springy copper wire which seems to do the trick. I really am making this up as I go along, but it seems to be working so far! The completed assembly was then test fitted to the chassis. With centering springs added...... ..... and bogie attached. Test fitted to the chassis. Alan __________________________________________ Comment posted by LaGrange on Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:48 pm de Selby wrote: Funny you should mention that Horsetan, but in another corner of the workbench (see below) is what will hopefully become S Class 173 "Galtee More" . This is the Terry MacDermott / Studio Scale Models etched kit. Like (I suspect) many modellers I have far too many projects on the go at one time, though I am not planning to do anything further to the "S" until the "U" is complete. Alan Whats your opinion of this kit so far? Good or bad? __________________________________________ ??? posted on Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:26 pm LaGrange wrote: Whats your opinion of this kit so far? Good or bad? So far very good . The etches are very nicely detailed, and intelligent use is made of etched grooves, tabs and slots as an aid to construction. There's a few small areas were minor tweaking will be necessary; for example the cast whitemetal smokebox door stands a bit too proud of the smokebox. (The actual GNR(I) doors were completely flush at the edges). I hope to progress construction of the "S" after the "U" is finished, and will post the results. Hopefully this will give an impression of what the kit is like (and any pitfalls I encounter) in some detail. Alan __________________________________________ ??? posted on Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:57 pm With the Thompson A2/3 completed ( http://www.rmweb.co....hp?f=89&t=23818 ), I finally had the opportunity to resume work on this model which I had been shamefully neglecting! The next task in the regauging work was construction of a tender chassis. This was designed to be split frame - each side electrically insulated from the other - in order to have electrical pick up from all the tender wheels. The chassis consists of a PCB base, Alan Gibson brass frames (GER ones if I remember correctly which happened to be the correct wheelbase) and Kean Maygib sprung hornblocks on the front and centre axles. These are quite fiddly to assemble but give good results - I am not sure whether they are still available; I have had the ones which I used for quite some time. The split axles were those supplied by Branchlines. Most of this chassis went together during the very enjoyable Missenden Abbey modellers' weekend back in March, but a slight flaw then came to light. As originally cut, the chassis was just slightly too wide to allow the back to back to be set on the wheels. And of course this allowed no sideplay in the axles whatsoever. So not quite back to the drawing board, but the first photo below shows the chassis disassembled and a chunk crudely hacked off to make it narrower! The edge was tidied up and the brass frame about to be soldered back in position. At which point it became apparent the the joint in the Branchlines axles would sit within the brass axle bearing on one side now the frame was narrower. This would short out across the axle, so I ended up making DIY split axles from surplus Alan Gibson 1/8"" axles araldited into short lengths of plastic tube. This seems to have worked well. The tender chassis has been narrowed to allow the wheels to be set to the correct gauge! The Branchlines split axles and their homemade replacements can also be seen. Setting the wheels to the correct back to back. The original tender outer frames were made from quite thick brass strip which didn't allow enough width for 21mm gauge wheelsets, so a new pair of frames were cut from nickel silver sheet. Tender axlebox castings of the correct pattern were supplied by Des Sullivan of Studio Scale Models. The chassis fitted to the tender body. New outer frames have been cut from nickel silver sheet. The two tender frames unsoldered after cutting out. With the tender chassis assembled attention turned to the loco - tender drawbar and electrical connections. Once these were made the loco and tender chassis were tested under power and - to my surprise - seemed to work well. Loco and tender chassis showing drawbar and electrical connectors. Ad hoc under power test! The idea is that weight from the front of the loco is loaded on to the front drivers by the compensating beam, and weight from the tender on to the rear drivers by the drawbar. Next stage was to fit the loco body and here a further slight problem was encountered. There is very limited clearance between the coupling rods and the frame valance / splashers on these engines. Showing the limited (Well, negative at this point) clearance between rods and framing. Consequently the crankpin washers were foul of the frames, and much grinding and filing (not to mention cursing) was necessary to achieve clearance. It took the best part of a day removing a little material, trial fitting the body, then removing a little more (repeat 4096 times.....) but eventually a free running loco whose rods did not strike the footplate emerged. Result! Finally back in one piece and running sweetly! The wider gauge is very noticeable from this angle and really improves the appearance. With the basic loco complete and working, the remaining tasks is are to add details such as cab interior and brakegear, then make good the paintwork and lining. Alan __________________________________________ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
de Selby Posted January 4, 2010 Author Share Posted January 4, 2010 There's been a whole list of little jobs that I have been working through to complete the loco. Things like loco and tender brakegear, missing lamp brackets, cab details and fall plate. As usual, this all takes very much longer than you (or I) might think...... The loco now complete (he says hopefully.....) except for attention to the paintwork. I will also have to see if I can get some nameplates made. Here the model has been dismantled to its various sub assemblies to allow the new bits to be painted and any damage to other paintwork to be repaired. This is taking almost as long as a complete paint job on a loco! The cab details added to the cab. The camera is very cruel and starkly highlights every minor imperfection - it really looks much better when viewed normally - or at least that's my story! I may touch in some of the painting blemishes with a very fine brush. Nearly there! :icon_thumbsup2: Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0rris Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Lovely, your tender set up looks like quite a piece of minature engineering! Keep up the good work! m0rris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
de Selby Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 Lovely, your tender set up looks like quite a piece of minature engineering! Keep up the good work! m0rris Thank you for the compliment. Engineering may be too grand a description! If it all works perfectly first time, then perhaps. If it does not, then advanced bodgery might be nearer the mark! :icon_lol: :icon_e_wink: Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
de Selby Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 So, finally I think I can now say that this model is complete, and the obligatory "works photos" are appended. Of course by the way of these things, it's not really complete. I still need to source nameplates - there are a couple of possibilities for having them made. I am also mulling over whether or not I should try to tone down the paint finish with some form of satin varnish. To my eye it is too glossy, but I have had bad experiences with that "final coat of varnish" in the past. Like having to completely strip the model I had just spent many hours on painting, lining and lettering back to bare metal and starting again. A tad soul destroying. If anyone can recommend a good satin varnish that won't dry lumpy, or unevenly, or with lots of white streaks, then I'm all ears! There's also the small matter of testing the loco over some proper trackwork (as opposed to the short straight test length of 21mm gauge track which I made). The best solution to this is to build a 21mm gauge micro layout with turnouts and curves - before I build too much more 21mm stock. I have allowed for sideplay, etc. in the model but I'd be surprised If at least some tweaking wasn't necessary. When I was redoing the lining on the tender underframes (which were replaced as part of the regauging from 16.5 to 21mm) I spent more than one moment wishing that the GNR(I) had stuck to unlined black livery!! Strange to think that the first metal for this model was cut way back in the 1970s. Is this a record for a protacted build? Admittedly it was "finished" as a OO gauge model at one point in its career though so possibly can be disqualified for this reason! Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Really nice and an unusual prototype. Makes a refreshing change. Back to the GN Atlantics now? Incidentally, I always use Games Workshop Satin Varnish. The best aerosols you can get, IMHO. I've never had a problem with the results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
de Selby Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 Really nice and an unusual prototype. Makes a refreshing change. Back to the GN Atlantics now? Incidentally, I always use Games Workshop Satin Varnish. The best aerosols you can get, IMHO. I've never had a problem with the results. Thank you. It is also less likely that a superdetailed RTR version will now come out! I've been working away at the GN Atlantics during the recent "intermission" and I'll post an update shortly. Still not finished mind you! There is a Games Workshop near to where I work. I shall investigate further....... Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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