A small problem??.now in the paintshop

[burgundy]

After a lengthy diversion to finish another project, I am happy to report that the Sharpie successfully passed the initial "rice pudding test" this afternoon.

 

The recipe for the drive train has been a Nigel Lawton 12v 10mm x 12mm mini motor, linked by rubber bands to a Mousa gearbox (half of the pair that you get as a set). The gearbox hangs vertically behind the axle and the motor is attached to it sitting vertically in the firebox. The result is surprisingly frisky and despatched three whitemetal wagons without difficulty.

I need to do some more work to improve the balance of the chassis and figure out how the brake (singular) was actuated, then on to the body.  

Best wishes

Eric

[Velopeur]

This looks a fascinating project. What is the origin of the castings, please?

[burgundy]

This looks a fascinating project. What is the origin of the castings, please?

They are a trial set for a forthcoming release from 5 & 9 models. Chris Cox (aka 5 & 9 Models) had only finished the loco castings when he sent them to me and his plan is to have a tender drive mechanism. I believe that work on that is still ongoing. 

I was unable to resist the challenge to build it as a tank engine and therefore have to fit a motor into the loco.

Best wishes

Eric   

[Velopeur]

Thanks. Maybe he should develop the tank version too - those Sharp singles did get around a bit!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The trouble with the rebuilds into the tank loco form is that from the limited photographic evidence I have seen there may well have been no two the same.

 

Where a brake can be seen, the block is at the driven wheel rear, actuated by a push rod from a crank bracket underneath the footplate, and might well be one side only. Difficult to see at all on some photos due to poor quality, and variations in the outside framing and/or provision of a balance beam between the driven and trailing axleboxes.

[burgundy]

The trouble with the rebuilds into the tank loco form is that from the limited photographic evidence I have seen there may well have been no two the same.

One of the interesting aspects of anything from the very early period is that you are not only exploring the earliest days of steam power - but of photography as well!

The 5 & 9 castings are based on a drawing which is of a Sharp product for another company and, given the relative concept of "standardisation" in that period, it can be virtually guaranteed to be different to the locos sold to the Brighton. Indeed there were several successive iterations of design sold to the Brighton so it is probably a moot point whether any two were identical, although there was clearly a strong family resemblance - curved frames, dome just behind the chimney, etc.

Rebuilds, in turn, introduced a whole new set of variables, as the concept of a tank engine was still in its early days and engineers were still working out how to get a useful quantity of coal and water on board, without a tender. J C Craven seems to have built/rebuilt similar locos, but with side tanks, saddle tanks, well tanks or wing tanks until he finally resigned in 1870 - I have yet to find any rationale for the choices.  

The nearest prototype for this project introduces a third set of variables, as the only known photo shows the loco after it had been sold to the Colne Valley and Halstead Railway. The bunker appears to have been extended by an enthusiastic (but aesthetically challenged) blacksmith and we shall probably never know what else had been "improved".  

This is a long way of saying "I agree", but the castings, when available, will provide a useful starting point for your creativity - and there is a good chance that it will be some time before you find one of these appearing in the list of Hornby's forthcoming releases!   

Best wishes

Eric

[burgundy]

For those to whom the idea of a Sharpie is appealing, I attach pictures (with Chris Cox' permission) of a tender loco that he has built from the castings. Currently there is no chassis for either loco or tender, nor provision for motorising, but if anyone is looking for an interesting challenge, they might like to contact 5 & 9 Models.

Best wishes

Eric      

[Porco Rosso]

I agree it looks very appealing indeed.

[burgundy]

Despite the lengthy silence, this project is still moving slowly forward and I have been fitting out the footplate. I have fabricated a filler for the well tank, a regulator handle and a weatherboard, which will have to be mounted in association with the salter balance that links to the safety valve column.

But the bit, that is causing me to pause for thought just at the moment, is the arrangement of the brakes.

Note from the drawing that the brake wheel is mounted like a ship's steering wheel, so it is presumably turning a rod that is horizontal and running alongside the firebox. My question is how this might be converted into a movement that will apply the brakes? Either it must be a simple ratchet arrangement, which would not appear to generate much leverage - or a screw thread which might generate fore and aft movement. 

If you look at this loco, it appears to have the same brake wheel and the picture also shows the arrangement of the brakes. There appears to be a (more or less) vertical rod, which actuates a crank between the driving and trailing wheel. The two leading blocks appear to be linked, as do the two trailing blocks, with the actuation forcing apart the rear driving and front trailing wheel blocks. This appears to require vertical movement, rather than horizontal. So I am still struggling to work out what the "ship's wheel" is doing to generate the necessary actuation.

Can anyone help please?  

Best wishes

Eric      

[billbedford]

From the 'ships wheel' there was a horizontal shaft ending in one of a pair of bevel gears. The second of the gears was fitted to a vertical shaft which had a screw thread cut on its lower part. On the screw thread the was a long rectangular nut, on each end of the nut there was a link to the brake hangers. So as the brake wheel was turned the nut moved down the screw thread and the links forced the brake hangers apart.

 

I've seen this arrangement used on early brake vans, but can't find the drawings at the moment.

[burgundy]

From the 'ships wheel' there was a horizontal shaft ending in one of a pair of bevel gears. The second of the gears was fitted to a vertical shaft which had a screw thread cut on its lower part. On the screw thread the was a long rectangular nut, on each end of the nut there was a link to the brake hangers. So as the brake wheel was turned the nut moved down the screw thread and the links forced the brake hangers apart.

Bill

Thank you; that is brilliant. 

I don't think I would have come up with that solution, no matter how long I sat thinking about it!

Best wishes

Eric

[burgundy]

One of the challenges with locos of this vintage is that everything on the footplate is fully exposed to view. On the other hand, the controls in this era tended to be rather more rudimentary, so there are rather fewer of the knobs, levers and gauges than you would find in these new fangled cab thingies. The last episode of this project was a request for information on how the brake wheel might have actuated the brakes. Bill B kindly came up with a suggestion that has now been built into the fireman's side of the footplate, attached to the firebox and partly concealed by the fender. Unfortunately, it makes clear that my footplate cutout is slightly further forward than it should be, so that the fireman is going to do himself an unfortunate injury every time he tries to step past it. The location of the reversing lever on the opposite side is also not going to make it any easier for the driver, if he leaves it in the wrong position.

The backhead itself now sports a regulator and a couple of Salter balances (which gave the crew full opportunity to hang a couple of spanners on the levers to get a bit more oomph from the boiler). The levers attach to the tops of the balances, go through the weather board (in this case helping to hold it in place) and attach to the safety valve casting. Squeezed between the levers, weatherboard and safety valve, is a whistle, which makes the area a bit crowded.

At the back of the footplate, I have had to use a bit of creativity. There must have been a means to fill the water tanks and drawings of other locos suggest a single filler in the middle of the bunker. There must also have been some way to contain the fuel in the bunker, or the crew would have spent their working lives ankle deep in coke, so I have fashioned up something to look like a couple of pieces of timber with an opening at the bottom. Quite how the fireman extracted coke past the water filler downpipe, I find it hard to imagine – but, on the model, that bit will all be buried deep in coke.

Elsewhere, springs and hangers stand above each of the axleboxes. The two over the rear carrying wheels, located to maximise the hazard to the footplate crew, are easy enough to fabricate, since they are in a fairly dark corner – but therefore virtually impossible to glue in place. The driving wheel springs can be conveniently braced against the wheel splasher. Which leaves the leading axle springs. After some thought, I added some push rods, which locate in the underside of the spring and into a hole in the footplate – and through the opening in the frames below - so that they are a little more firmly located.

The final photo goes even further off piste for a thread under the “motors and gearboxes” heading, by showing the effect of a quick coat of rattle can red to highlight the undesired lumps and bumps. In this case, the most obvious need is for a bit more work to smooth out the seam along the top of the boiler.

Best wishes

Eric

PS This thread started off as a query about finding a motor that would fit into a rather small space – which is why it is under this topic. It has rambled through “kitbuilding and scratchbuilding” territory and is about to lurch into “painting and weathering”. Is it appropriate to keep a coherent story under one thread or is it correct to split the story across three discrete threads?

 

 

[Oldddudders]

I am reliably informed that it is within the OP's gift to change topic titles at will, so you might care to update the title to reflect the latest developments.

[Penlan]

... If you look at this loco, it appears to have the same brake wheel and the picture also shows the arrangement of the brakes....

There seems to be two brake blocks in front of the driving wheel, as if the braking arrangements are for a much larger diameter wheel, and the space(s) filled with another blake block.

Although highly unlikely, but one wonders if the brake blocks were pulled upwards to effect a braking action rather than the linkage pulling them together in a horizontal way - we were still in the age of innovation!!!!

[Armchair Modeller]

I wonder if the brakes were a later addition, as braking was usually tender-only on early tender locos - which your model would have been originally. Loco engineers were worried that brakes on the loco - and the driving wheels in particular would damage the valve gear etc. Also, driving axle failures were moderately common in those days, with the poor quality materials available. The operating system and the brakes themselves could then be different on each loco converted - an interesting proposition!

 

Some locos of this period only seem to have had brake blocks on one side of the loco - some early Fairbairn tanks, like the one preserved in South America certainly seem to have been so. That might explain why you don't see brakes drawn on some side elevations of tank locos of the period - including your own drawing. The well tank and firebox presumably made cross-loco connections problematic.

 

I would suggest that the brake gear was operated by the rod just below and slightly to the left of the RH man's hand in the Colne Valley photo. It seems to terminate in a small triangular or V shaped lever. The movement of the horizontal brake rods connecting the brake shoes would be fore and aft, so the brake arms would swing in the normal way. At the very rear of the loco is a mechanism to reverse the movement for the rear brake block. This is similar to other locos of the period.

[billbedford]

There seems to be two brake blocks in front of the driving wheel, as if the braking arrangements are for a much larger diameter wheel, and the space(s) filled with another blake block.

Although highly unlikely, but one wonders if the brake blocks were pulled upwards to effect a braking action rather than the linkage pulling them together in a horizontal way - we were still in the age of innovation!!!!

 

I don't think so.

 

What I can see is a trough fitted to the brake hanger, with the wooden brake blocks bolted into the trough. You can see a similar arrangement on the rear wheels. 

[burgundy]

Thanks for all the comments! Sorry for the delay in reply, but it has taken a little while to get this photo to load.

This is one of those pictures where the more you look, the more you find. Bill B previously suggested how the “ships wheel” arrangement translated “rotation” on the footplate into “lift” below the footplate and thereby push and pull on the brake rods. As Armchair Modeller has pointed out, you can more or less see all of the linkages, starting with the pivot below the right hand man's right arm and then linking fore and aft to either side of the driving wheels. Brakes of any kind would almost certainly have been added as part of the conversion, as early drawings seem to show brakes on the tenders only. Putting four blocks, bearing on two wheels, probably seemed plenty! I was only intending to model one sided brakes and I had not even thought through the practical problem of routing any rodding across the loco when there would have been a well tank in the way.

However, Penlan's original point is an interesting one. I don't recall seeing anything like this arrangement for mounting brake blocks before and I am sure that I have seen the suggestion that the driving wheels had been replaced. The original drivers would have been 5' 6” and the suggestion was that the replacements were somewhat larger. I wonder whether this suggestion has arisen because of the slightly odd design around the splasher? There seems to be an added crescent shaped section, that is not exactly concentric with the lighter semi circle. I cannot make sense of this, as I would have thought that any enlargement would need to be at the level of the footplate as much as anywhere else?

The other feature that intrigues me is the bunker. Why does the footplate have that step in it, with a rod or pipe apparently protruding out from under it? None of the drawings of Brighton rebuilds into tank engines seem to include this feature, but have a flat footplate, continuing along the level of the original. There also seem to be some patches around the rear axlebox, where one might have expected flat sheet metal. The rear of the bunker looks very much like an afterthought - relieved only by the scrollwork, between the tops of the two sections. I wonder if we are seeing the effect of the repairs following a collision that damaged the rear of the loco sometime during its life on the Colne Valley?

Finally, have a look at the angle crank on the smokebox. It looks as though it might operate the sandbox on the footplate, but if you follow the rod back, you can see where it runs down inside the handrail and comes out in a looped handle on the footplate.

Best wishes

Eric

[Armchair Modeller]

This is the best version of that photo I have seen and does show lots of detail.

 

The odd-shaped splasher over the driving wheel is surely an illusion based on the lining. Ignore the lining and it looks just like a normal splasher to me. I would have thought the drivers and splasher are the original size.

 

I think Mr Bedford's analysis of the brake blocks is a good one. Wooden brake blocks wore very quickly, so had to be very generously proportioned when new.

[burgundy]

With the sun shining, it seemed a good chance to take some photos. The basic colour scheme is complete and a coat of Klear has been applied to help the lining. After that, it will need varnish and weathering (not forgetting a footplate crew). The chassis still needs the balance to be adjusted and then the brakes fitted.

     

Best wishes

Eric

[Donw]

What a fascinating project this has been.

Don

[burgundy]

Since the last photos, the lining has been completed, following that shown in the drawing from Burtt. Choice of numerals was a bit limited, but the fender is pretty tiny and so I found some carriage numbers that fitted. The whole loco, in ex-works condition looks like this.

For those of a nervous disposition, please look away now. I have been trying to give some of my locos a more “livid in” look – without resorting to “end of steam grunge” condition, which strikes me as entirely inappropriate for this period. The loco is intended to look well cared for by a small army of cleaners – but nonetheless to look as though it has been earning its keep. I have made the area around the bunker (which is painted in red oxide) much dustier and generally darkened down. The frames have come in for some weathering, in that they have had a light wash of black ink to lowlight the crevices, and then some dry brushing with a slightly lighter shade of red/brown, to highlight the rather prominent boltheads and other details (incidentally, the boltheads on the extended rear frames were done with Archer S scale bolthead transfers). The top of the boiler has been drybrushed with matt black to create a sooty effect (largely invisible unless you look carefully at the white bit of the lining on the boiler bands!) and the smokebox and footplate have been drybrushed with dark grey to highlight the edges and to kill any shine. The axleboxes were given a bit of Klear around them as though there were some oil about. I am coming to the conclusion that much of the effect that I would like to achieve is less about applying “dirt” and more about contrasting finishes – some bits are glossy from water and oil, some bits are matt from traffic film and scorching of the smokebox paint, other bits have a sheen as they were painted. Until someone builds a replica of a loco of this period and allows it to build up a meaningful amount of “dirt”, I am afraid that it is down to my imagination rather than photographic evidence – which is always a risky way to do things.

The chassis needed a little final work and, in the course of getting the balance right, a bit more metal was ground out of the footplate where it fouled the carrying wheels. Some brakes were added – on the fireman's side only

(no point in overdoing it)

– and finally a crew. They are in blue overalls, as I can find little photographic evidence to illustrate footplate crews in “street” clothing and advice from Paul Edwards - have a look at the Brighton enginemen's site - suggests that the arguments with management were about who paid for uniform clothing.

And that is pretty much it, apart from finding somewhere at each end to attach a pair of Alex Jackson couplings.

Thanks to Chris Cox of 5 & 9 models for the set of castings (which he now knows can be motorised) and to all those on this thread, who have come up the the helpful suggestions that have made it possible.

Best wishes

Eric

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The red oxide frame contrasting strongly with the body colour produces the effect so often seen in photos of these machines that the whole thing isn't quite square, or less formally a little skew-whiff. Lovely outcome, what impossible challenge follows?

[Velopeur]

With all that water slopping around behind the rear wheels, it must have been very rough riding.

 

Beautiful model though!

[burgundy]

 Lovely outcome, what impossible challenge follows?

There is a serious risk that Vintner's Yard may start to get some attention!

Best wishes

Eric

[Killian keane]

Really pleasant to see someone else modelling the classical era, it may be of interest that one of these was given a short saddle tank between firebox and dome, need I say at boultons siding