Hornby Magazine OO Gauge Brake Tender

[Clive Mortimore]

No Hornby mags in Chelmsford Smifffs yesterday. Must be a rush of people wanting to pre-order the brake tender.

[Steve O.]

Evening All,

 

The tooling work for the diesel brake tender is underway as I type and the model is moving forwards. We (Hornby Magazine) are also now taking pre-orders for the brake tender which will be released in four liveries. The anticipated release date is May 2014 at present.

 

Cheers,

 

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the update, much appreciated.

I found the page for the news:

http://www.hornbymagazine.com/view_article.asp?ID=7114&pubID=38&t=0&s=0&p=1&i=10#continued

...and sent an email but had a 'bounce' from orders@keypublishing.com

Could you check the address?

Cheers, Steve.

[adrianbs]

Hi  All    Just thought I would pass a few comments although unfortunately a bit late because the model does not interest me and  I had not seen it mentioned in any of the mags I read etc.   As the "perpetrator"  of part of the first and the whole of the second model of  a diesel brake tender in 4mm and having read right through the posts I am afraid I have been having a really good laugh at the tangle Hornby Mag seem to have got themselves into.

      Clearly they have not got a copy of a G.A. drawing which I had access to when doing version 2.  I would have thought York ought to have it but a lot of "in service" stuff seems to have been with Serco until recently.  The very first kit was produced about 1971-2 largely by me but under the "MOPOK" label.  When they ceased trading about 1973  I did not want to use the vac form body of the original  so I produced a fully whitemetal body to go on the existing W/M bogies I had produced for the first version.  In those days there was none of this "New fangled" Cad/cam stuff ( I still have problems just using a keebored )  The bogie was tooled up with the simplest of handtools, photos and a load of measurements taken from a preserved bogie stored outside the old Clapham Tram Depot  which was the infant NRM. 

     One of the posts mentions the apparent inaccuracies of the bogies,  surely they could have saved all the bother and bought in either

Bachmann or Hornby ones complete and saved a small fortune on tooling.  I did not have that luxury as in the late 60s there were no really accurate Gresley bogies of any type available, even the original Wills/Kennedy bogies had been discontinued and in any case I could produce them myself cheaper.  My bogies weredesigned with brakeshoes of the correct shape on both sides of all wheels and the springs are pretty much in the correct place both between the wheels and behind the frames.  Even the Double bolster bogie design is fairly accurate from above in spite of the fact you can't see it !!  I did omit all the internal framing and brake rigging, so I have to take that criticsm on the chin.  As the above Cad/cams seem to show, there are no brakeshoes, no springs behind the frames and the centre bolster spring set seems to be far too far out.  Apart from that there seems to be one further major fault but it might not exist because Cad/cams of this low quality  may not be good enough to show it.   Gresley bogies sides, ends and most of the internal structure are made using pressed steel sheet not flame cut steel or steel sections.   I think these may well have come from Leeds Forge Co the originators of the famous FOX bogies  but in this instance the top flange is outward and only the lower flange of the main frame is pressed inward.  When steel of this thickness is bent though 90 degrees there has to be quite a large radius,  about the same as a wagon  corner plate where the outer radius is about   1.5 to 2 INCHES.  If this does not get incorporated the steel cracks on the bend line.  Very few models of Gresley bogies have this VERY noticeable radius to the bottom of the frame and even fewer  the inner radius at the top which is much smaller of course.  I can't see any sign of this on the drawing above but I suppose it could be there if the drawings showed a cross section.  Guess whose bogies do have this feature.     Does seem that unless there is going to be quite a lot of extra design work done, as it stands, the RTR model will not even be as good as a 40 year old kit  and certainly not better apart from being RTR.  The kit is very straightforward but of course, being a kit, obviously has insurmountable problems for most modellers in spite of the fact that probably over 1000 have already been sold and they are still freely available from me.  My kit has been mentioned earlier so I thought the forum might like a bit of background history.           Have fun playing trains while you wait for Hornby Mag to sort things out---hopefully !!    adrianbs

Edited June 13, 2014 by adrianbs

[CloggyDog]

Adrian,

 

it was one of your brake tender kits that was my intro into whitemetal kits many, many years ago.

 

Went together easily enough for a novice and was propelled or hauled by various diesels on assorted layouts for some 15 years and only retired when I shifted to EM gauge (it having been built OO). It's probably still lurking around a box somewhere.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Adrian

 

So your the bloke responsible for the best Gresley bogies I have so far come across, and you bunged them under a brake tender.

 

Like Alan, your brake tender kit is one of the few white metal items I managed to make without any problems.

 

I do hope that Mike can make a decent RTR model.

[adrianbs]

Hi All,   Sorry  about that Clive but read on to find out my real motives.

 

 Just had a trawl through some of Paul Bs photos and confirmed what I was pretty sure about ( After 40 years the old grey cells are not as good as Poirot's).   When I released the Mk 2 kit in all metal I decided to do a second, different version. Not wanting to have to make LMS bogies I decided to use the other LNER bogie kit I had done by then, the heavy-duty double bolster 8' 6" version.   As I thought, there were indeed full size B/Ts with this bogie and a few of Paul's pics show them.  The sides are about 40% deeper than the standard ( Can't be bothered to get out my G.A.s ! )   Not sure if  they are all from one of the batches mentioned earlier or just random as they came up for use. Perhaps somebody could check this as we don't want H/M to fit the wrong bogies  DO WE !!    Actually it would in fact have been a better choice for H/M to have chosen the heavy bogie as there is no RTR one available and I think the Hornby Gresley Buffet and also some Full brakes used this bogie. 

 

There may have been some ulterior by motive by  H/M or Dapol for making a new bogie rather than using an existing one, I wonder what it might have been ??   Could they have planned to do some coaches with it?, but  all are now covered by Bachmann or Hornby or are they??   At that time in about 1971 I was working very very closely with George & Allan the pioneers of modern etched brass kits and after the Siphons and Monsters etc. had been done I was hoping to get them to produce a Quad-art set. I'm sorry Clive that the only thing I used the bogies on was the B/T but that was NOT what I had actually produced  them for.  Alas within a few months of my going full time, G & A  shut down with financial problems.  Having helped  them out with their other products, my plans came to nothing as I was not able to do artwork for etching.

 

With regard to the use of Loco tenders, apart from the 6 wheel problem the good riding qualities of Gresley bogies when properly maintained was probably decisive.

The  B/Ts were made using cut and shut redundant coach chassis so cost very little to produce and the long low body  gave a low centre of gravity when filled with Ready-mix concrete. This idea was probably carried over from the concrete platforms of the late LNER/ Std. BR brakevans etc. The only other disadvantage of Gresley bogies was turned to advantage in this case as they were somewhat heavier than single  bolster bogies such as the LMS and other companies mainly used.

 

I used the heavy bogies on my TRACK CLEANING Version of the B/T as the centre spring had to be omitted for the cleaner pad holders. The deeper sideframes conveniently hide most of the missing springs.  Do hope H/M don't read this, might give them ideas.  If anyone wants a whole fleet of my B/Ts I can always swap the bogie

sides for heavy ones to make a change.  I just wonder if some of those who have posted have actually got the wrong bogies under their models already.  Until the full

fleet number list is available one can only go by PaulBs photos. I am not sure how many he has caught.      

          Time for bed now so will do a read through and post tomorrow     adrianbs

[adrianbs]

  Hi all,  A final PS to the above, if the last Cad./cams are those being used for the bogies it looks like I am going to have great sales for mine as people chuck  the H/M

   ones in the bin. The drawings appear even more inaccurate than the earlier series. So many innaccuracies lead me to believe they were designed without reference

   to any of the available drawings, photos, or full size bogies. I am already rubbing my hands with glee, preorders will have to be placed as I can see my stock

   disappearing like the tickets for the Monty Python revival shows.        Regards  adrianbs.

[adrianbs]

     And a final PPS,  Looking very closely at the drawings which alas do not show a side elevation I have a distinct feeling that the model is going to have a Diagram 556

      body length but with the Gresley bogies found on the 3' shorter Diagram 555, hence all the incorrect running numbers listed for production.  Anybody for 9' LMS bogies??

              Regards  all  adrianbs.

[davefrk]

Good for you Adrian.... but don't shout too loud, they might actually hear you and correct all the anomalies.

 

 

Then again, maybe not.

 

Dave Franks.

[adrianbs]

Hi  Dave,  I have done some more scaling up and the last Cad/cam is quite definitely  a Dia. 556 Body length !!   Alas, although that might please some who

could substitute LMS bogies, they are going to be stuffed too. The body will almost certainly have the distinct tumblehome of the Dia 555 which is absent on

the B/Ts with LMS bogies.

 

  So unless the model can still be changed,  the tooling was supposed to be under way on or before the 14th Nov according to Mike on that date in his

post,  it looks like Hornby Magazine will have a model with a seriously duff body and a useless underframe !!    Now where did I see comments like that

before ??

 

       I suppose the Toy Train brigade will still buy it and it will become a collectors item in due course as well.  I wonder if Dapol are still involved and know

about the problems.  After my other comments about their products it will probably be water off a ducks back, but I am not sure I have the courage to tell

them.!!  Any volunteers ??

                            

                 Sorry to upset all of those who were going to buy one or more but better to know the grisly truth now, rather than after you have spent your

hard earned money        Regards  adrianbs

[250BOB]

I noticed that Mike Wild the editor of Hormby Mag, did ask for constructive suggestions back in post #26 in November 2012.

 

Do I understand that the latest criticisms were mentioned earlier in this thread, then duly ignored by Hornby mag, which would have been foolish.????  

 

OR.....are they new criticisms that have come to light 12 months after Mike had asked for input.??

 

Bob.

[adrianbs]

   Hi  250Bob   Have you actuially read any of the rest of this thread or only the last 3 or 4  posts ??   The last posts only confirm what others have been saying

since Nov  2012 and gives slightly more detail than elewhere.  Quite clearly Mike Wild has not checked or altered hardly anything over the last 12 months in

spite of more than one or two queries as to which Diagram he was working to.  The bogie detail seems to have deteriorated in the later posts even though the

profile and brakeshoes have been mentioned as being suspect.  If you are accusing some of us of not offering assistance until it was too late I am afraid that

won't wash.  I  have no idea who Mike consulted before starting work, nobody has held their hand up and I certainly was not asked and indeed only found out

about the project this week by accident..  I assume there has been some contact with Dapol's own designers  but have no idea if they had any input into the

project.  If they did I am surprised some of the more obvious mistakes were not noticed by them either    Naturally, as a major competitor I would hardly have 

been likely to want to build my own gallows but suitable inducements might have persuaded me otherwise.  Maybe Hornby Magazine wants all its design

work done for nothing,  I am sure you know what paying peanuts gets..  

 

           As far as I can see, having read ALL the posts, those who have offered advice seem to have been largely ignored.  The latest Cad/cams are still

fatally flawed but don't worry, the model will get rave reviews in at least one magazine.    

                     

                              Yours cynically   adrianbs  

 

          PS I would offer a ruler to help the design but I am not sure such a crude way of checking things is used these days.!!

[davefrk]

Snupped>

 

          PS I would offer a ruler to help the design but I am not sure such a crude way of checking things is used these days.!!

 

Ouch!

 

Dave.

[7013]

Nothing like being positive is there! You are obviously a brake tender aficionado Adrian and whilst I applaud your attention to detail, which if you are correct is much more detailed than that of Hornby magazine, you do appear to be on a bit of a crusade with this.

I have ordered one and the fact that it is a diagram. 555 or 556 matters not a jot to me. I am sure it will look good in front of one of my CL22s because the prototypes were so poor they need all the help they can get even though they may be wrong region or never used brake tenders. It may not be right when it comes out but it might just as well be fine, but so many models have problems these days it is almost becoming the norm. As for feeling sorry for us that have ordered one or two, don't bother, you are the one who appears to be getting wound up about it.

The old cliche applies about buying and I am sure for every disappointed person there will be more that are pleased. Let's wait and see what the finished product looks like before we start the stone throwing, you may well be pleasantly surprised.

[Ian Hargrave]

Re : post 85. I suggest you express your obviously passionately held opinions in a more restrained manner.Otherwise,the 'Toy Train Brigade' will come roaring out of the woodwork on a full ( 4mm ) scale offensive.

[Jack]

Re : post 85. I suggest you express your obviously passionately held opinions in a more restrained manner.Otherwise,the 'Toy Train Brigade' will come roaring out of the woodwork on a full ( 4mm ) scale offensive.

 

... and give you a tender behind

[adrianbs]

  Hi All    Don't know why some of you are getting so angry at me,  I'm not the one who appears, at the present time, to be going to con you into

   buying  a seriously inaccurate model.  Far better for you and all those modellers who, unlike you , are waiting for the really accurate model 

   they have been promised,  to raise your voices in protest at Hornby Magazine.   I shall be delighted from a commercial point of view if the

   model is C---P !,    I have no doubt it will give my sales something of a boost when the more discerning decide to buy a kit instead.  I'm not

   spending my valuable time posting on this forum for my benefit but for your's.  I already have a very nice accurate B/T and I could have as

   many more as I like to the same standard.  even though the kit  it is about 40 years old. 

 

        I'm sure 7013 will be quite happy with his model which will be half Dia 555 and half 556  with poorly detailed bogies unless major changes

  are going to be made.   I'm not quite so sure all the other hundreds of modellers waiting for this will feel the same way.  I am sure Jack will be

  more likely to be kicking himself  for not supporting me if the model turns out as shown at the moment.   So far, Ian, gentle persuasion aimed

  at Hornby  Magazine seems to have had little or no effect over the past year, maybe a slightly LESS RESTRAINED  attitude might just get some

  results.  I am sure you are all well aware what sort of reception the LMS "Stove R" received when it finally appeared,  this model will be far 

  less accurate unless the changes recommended are made.   Hopefully it will not keep falling off the track this time but even that is not yet

  guaranteed.       

                                  bye for now  adrianbs

           

[Jack]

   I am sure Jack will be

  more likely to be kicking himself  for not supporting me if the model turns out as shown at the moment.

           

 

I was just making a joke (note the icon)!  I'm not in the market for a b/t and, after the 7mm wagons, won't be buying any items until they have been thoroughly reviewed by people whose opinion I trust ... which does include your goodself.  However, sometimes its not what you say, but the vehemency with which you say it.

[adrianbs]

    Hi Jack,  Sorry if I got the wrong impression of what you posted, I have no idea what that particular emoticon means and it did read  as though you agreed I

     should not make such strong criticism of H/M.  I've been in business now for a long time and it has been clear for most of that time that the mild rebukes

     made to RTR manufacturers by magazine revues etc, because of commercial pressures, have had very little effect.  I have dealt with many projects from my

     customers and I  have found it almost impossible to persuade them that their patterns etc need major redesign unless I put my opinion very forcefully.

     Often this resulted in me rebuilding them for free  ( The old " If you think you can do better " ploy ) but the final model was received with far better reviews

     and subsequent sales to the benefit of all concerned apart. of course, from the opposition.  Just as well you don't need a B/T though !!! 

         

      A case in point in these posts were the ones which ponted out the bogie profile and brakeshoes MIGHT BE SUSPECT. Another mentioned the lack of rear

    springs and the position of the others looked as if they MIGHT be incorrect.   No change has been made at all to improve the bogies which are, as shown

    to date,    APPALLINGLY INACCURATE !!, ( This is real unrestrained criticism ! ) Indeed,, depending on the final body produced, may well be entirely the

    wrong type of bogie altogether.

       

     The use of modern CAD technology is of no value whatsoever  unless correct dimensions  and details  are put into the files and then used correctly as a

     result of some detailed knowledge of the prototype involved.  Human brains are still way ahead of computers and I would pit my aged grey cells against

     a computer on a project like this unless the full size prototype CAD files were available,  Even then many adjustments have to  be made when scaling down

     and the human brain is still the best tool available for that because computers do not have design skills as yet, at least not the ones on simple CAD

     programs.

               

                No doubt early next week we will hear from Mike Wild and maybe the news will be a lot better than at present. 

                       Regards   adrianbs

[Andy Y]

 ( This is real unrestrained criticism ! )

 

It is for you Adrian. You've had your say so there's no need to keep waggling your stick around; it's also worth noting, in internet terms, that use of block capitals is the equivalent of standing in the middle of the room and shouting at people to make them hear you.

[250BOB]

   

               

                No doubt early next week we will hear from Mike Wild and maybe the news will be a lot better than at present. 

                       Regards   adrianbs

 

Hello Adrian,

Personally, I dont think the news is that bad already...!!!!

 

As someone who is NEVER going to kit build stock of any kind....and I'm not alone there......I think that this representation of a Brake Tender will be fine by me and many, many others.

 

I have loads of respect for you, and everyone else that build kits....and all those folk that know the detail of models inside out.

 

But, I think, for the vast majority, something pretty close will suffice......and we shall leave it to the experts to refine on their workbenches.

 

I sincerely hope the criticism hasnt disuaded Mike Wild and Hornby Mag from proceeding with this project........warts and all.

 

Bob

Edited November 30, 2013 by 250BOB

[Andy Y]

But, I think, for the vast majority, something pretty close will suffice......

 

Being honest Bob I'd prefer it if they got it right as it's no more difficult to get it right than it is wrong so in that fact I agree with Adrian (it's just the way he goes about it that bugs me) so I'd hope you can have something that's better than a mongrel to run on your layout.

[BlackRat]

Having built the kit, I can vouch for both it's accuracy and it's simplicity to build.

 

It's only downfall is being made of white metal, as yes it got dropped, damaging one of the bogies beyond repair (I made it snap by trying to straighten it back).

 

Easily sorted with a pair of Bachmann bogies which come as a spare for under a fiver for two.....with metal wheels to!

[250BOB]

Being honest Bob I'd prefer it if they got it right as it's no more difficult to get it right than it is wrong so in that fact I agree with Adrian (it's just the way he goes about it that bugs me) so I'd hope you can have something that's better than a mongrel to run on your layout.

 

Andy,

 

I hadn't fully appreciated it was currently destined to be as bad as you say..."a mongrel", in which case, you are right....the model does need, and deserve, more care and attention to detail.,

 

I think it was more the "bug" I was suffering from.!!!

 

Bob

[stewartingram]

Having built a kit, with my own mods, some time back (Genisis), and a dia 558 from scratch, I was looking forward to this one. I had my suspicions when it was announced and held back from ordering, rather glad I did.

 

Stewart