Wright writes.....

[jacko]

I bet the layouts with lots of flashing lights and sounds etc are very appealing to children,

 

 

Wives too.  While I'm talking to the operators about boring technical stuff, Mrs J will be enjoying the layout - she especially likes the fairgrounds and fire engines and is always the first one to spot the 'special cameo' (at this years's modelrail Scotland it was a boss giving his secretary some 'exercise' over his desk on a layout which I won't name).

 

Graeme

[St Enodoc]

Thanks Steve,

 

It was really good to speak to the two of you as well. Meeting friends is a large part of my enjoyment at exhibitions. 

 

With regard to the weight of my locos, I've never given much (scientific) thought to how heavy they might be. There must be a formula (for clever folk) dictating how much a model locomotive should weigh, but my approach is entirely unscientific. Before any fiddly valve gear is erected and fixed, I try the 'complete' loco on the heaviest train on LB it might be expected to haul. If it takes it (with ease) then I add no more ballast (if it's a white metal kit like the O2 you mention). If it needs more weight, then I just keep on adding more until it'll take the heaviest train. Weight is either Liquid Lead or little chips of lead held in place with low-melt solder (if I can get at it) or epoxy (NOT PVA, because that'll expand in time and burst through seams!). Because I have no need of DCC and its space-wasting characteristics by needing to fit a decoder, then there's usually enough space inside most loco bodies for extra ballast. That's it, really. Because my kit-built locos (even those made from sheet metal) are so much heavier than RTR equivalents (you lifted up that brass B17 at Warley), then, axiomatically, they'll pull much, much more. Not only that, because the mech's are far superior (motors/gearboxes), then they're more reliable and long-lasting. Of course, they have to be made, and building complex locos might be beyond many (not you). That means, to some extent, hand-made/kit-built motive power is not the normal prime mover on many 'mainstream' layouts. 

 

Speaking of mainstream layouts, I don't know whether I'd class Horsted Keynes as that. It certainly wasn't a 'typical' N Gauge layout. My comments were more directed at (some) layouts where no real observation of a prototype seems to have taken place, resulting in the likes of RTR RA9 motive power running over much-lighter lines than would be allowed. That said, the hobby is a broad church and if that's what folk wish to do, then that's up to them, and making things is far broader than just locos. 

More than 50 years ago, in the old MRN, Jack Newton described how he weighted his locos to 1 ounce per 3 tons of the prototype's adhesive weight. I try to do the same (but not always successfully) although my own experience with shorter trains than yours tells me that anything up to 1 oz/5 tons works well. Unfortunately, many recent RTR locos are much lighter than this and there is often little room inside to add more.

 

Incidentally, most of Jack Newton's locos had card bodies.

[Focalplane]

I don't visit many shows, last year just one, so far this year only one but maybe two by the end of December. Because of my whereabouts I tend to visit suppliers rather than layouts as a priority and when I finally do get around to the layouts there are usually only a few that inspire. Just like the real thing, many layouts seem to have no trains running for long minutes, then one will rush around those tight curves.

 

I do like the cameos, in fact model people make layouts, for without people there would be no trains. Lighting, if subtle and well done, can be very effective, particularly if lighting up the gloom of a steam shed, a brazier under the water column, or the detailed interior of a shop (why add the detail if it can't be seen?)

 

But flashing lights on this that and everything else really isn't realistic and can be very annoying. But if the modellers of tomorrow like them, as Tom says above, then who am I to judge?

[Andrew P]

Not having gone to the GCR event this year, (Sorry to have missed you Tony), I cant comment on the Layouts, but one thing that really gets my goat, other than Front hook couplings, is the lack of Crew in Steam Locos. I was at a show about 4 years ago, and the chap was running open cab GWR Victorian Locos with no crew, but had scratch built working signals, when I mentioned this, the owner replied that he couldn't find suitably Victorian Gents, TWO years later, and at another show with the same Layout nothing had changed.

 

There is also TWO big O Gauge Layouts on You Tube, again, superb, but NO CREW in the Steam Locos      

[cctransuk]

Not having gone to the GCR event this year, (Sorry to have missed you Tony), I cant comment on the Layouts, but one thing that really gets my goat, other than Front hook couplings, is the lack of Crew in Steam Locos. I was at a show about 4 years ago, and the chap was running open cab GWR Victorian Locos with no crew, but had scratch built working signals, when I mentioned this, the owner replied that he couldn't find suitably Victorian Gents, TWO years later, and at another show with the same Layout nothing had changed.

 

There is also TWO big O Gauge Layouts on You Tube, again, superb, but NO CREW in the Steam Locos      

 

Andrew,

 

But what's the alternative - crew frozen in time? For my money, the perpetually bending fireman looks worse than nothing.

 

I know that it's possible to find figures in more static poses, but non-moving humans, be they on the platform, in the coaches or in the streets, will always require us to imagine the movement.

 

Imagining the presence of moving figures is only a tiny step removed from that scenario - and one many of us believe is more realistic than a host of humans, frozen in time.

 

Each to their own !!

 

Regards,

John isherwood.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I prefer layouts that are based on real locations or, if fictional, follow actual railway practice. Something where you can see that the builder(s) have tried to model the railway in miniature.

 

I get no enjoyment at all from those layouts where the builder has apparently just raided the various manufacturers catalogues to create every cameo scene he can cram in. The bus on the bridge, modern small factory unit with impossibly small access for the delivery trucks, church with wedding/funeral, burned out house/shop, pub with brawl outside, road traffic incident, workmen digging up road, etc. etc. As these appeal to the general public it may be appropriate for local club "family" orientated exhibitions to have one such layout alongside the Thomas layout, but they don't have a place in many exhibitions. Even the "finescale" shows such as Railex can still attract a significant number of families without these cameo layouts.

 

Do such layouts generate sufficient interest in youngsters to bring them into the hobby when older? I doubt that it does for very many. I think it is more likely that their fathers (perhaps I should say parents) are more likely to do so when the children are off their hands. So the recruitment value of such layouts have is to get the family to the show.

[Tony Wright]

 

 

The Big Bertha build is now complete, and the loco is ready to go to Geoff Haynes for painting. An article on its construction will appear in BRM in the autumn. 

 

Whenever I take pictures of my locos after they're completed, I'm appalled at how scruffy they look. Granted, this one has yet to be cleaned, but the camera will seek out any blemish, however small. 

 

Picking up on a couple of recent themes..............

 

Concertina gangways are essential in my view on gangwayed stock, even if they bridge a gap that's far too great. As for springing carriage couplings, I've tried that, but the maximum rake I've achieved is seven (kit-builds) before the leading couplings stretch (most unrealistically). I know more modern RTR carriages have a sort of extending collar surrounding the bogie pivot which increases the distance between cars on bends. I dislike this because, on a very heavy rake, adjacent cars can 'bounce' under load, resulting in derailments. The only way to tow carriages (in my experience) is via the headstock, just like the prototype. 

 

'Annoying' layouts? 'Kitchen sink' ones, as a friend puts it, where there is nowhere for the eye to rest. These include a church with simultaneous weddings and funerals, a car crash in the road outside, a fox hunt galloping across an adjacent field (part of which is on fire - the field, I mean - either that, or a building is on fire), part of a road has been dug up, complete with flashing signs, furious activity is taking place in/near every building including pub brawls, garage welding, blacksmith's forge, etc, a whirling windmill, waterfall, rock climbers (one having fallen, so an ambulance is rushing to the scene), and so on, and so on..........................Most are just made up locations, and they can be great entertainment for kids/families, so they have a place at 'general' shows. 

 

Am I being a modelling 'snob' here? I always advocate modelling a prototype, stringently examining prototype pictures as one does the research. Having taken thousands of prototype railway pictures, other than most of them showing locos/trains, nothing is really happening. Though I've included churches in the scene, I've never seen a wedding taking place (or a funeral) at the same time. Neither have I photographed simultaneous road accidents, buildings ablaze, pugilism or any of the other 'irritants'. The most 'exciting' picture was of a pair of Class 20s derailed in Sheffield. 

 

That such multiplicity of things going on can appeal to the young, there's no doubt. Will they eventually become 'serious' railway modellers, though? 

 

No crews in operating 'steam' locos? A huge 'no-no' from me as well, so thanks Andy. All my locos have crews and are fully lamped-up for the duty they're on. 

 

On LB itself, abstracting the trains, very little is 'happening'. There are a few figures (all in repose) and very few road vehicles (none of which has crashed). Despite universal coal fires, none of the buildings is blazing (neither is the embankment/cutting), and, though St. Medart's is represented on the backscene, no wedding bells or funeral dirges can be heard. It's just as it is in the prototype pictures................................... 

[grob1234]

Misquoting a couple of recent responses to the effect "do layouts with light and sound etc generate sufficient interest in the young viewers to turn them into modellers of the future"?

 

I would say what it does is plants the seed, that perhaps might grow into someone following up with the hobby in later life, or being inspired to getting a Hornby train set for Christmas.

 

We all start somewhere in the hobby, and I doubt there are many kids less than say 10 years of age who want to recreate a particular branch line station in 1934 in P4 with a correct track plan! All they want is Trains going by, and good for them I say!

 

My personal preference is now for prototypical layouts, however that's not always been the case, and as my knowledge about the subject has improved so my tastes have changed. I don't see any issue with layouts that have lights and bells and whistles etc, as long as they are not claiming to be an accurate portrayal of a location. A little fun in the hobby, and a little broad appeal to families who may not be "trainiacs" is a very good thing in my opinion, seeing how the hobby is still clouded with a rather poor reputation for being uncool.

 

Like others not every layout appeals to me when I visit shows, however I do remember very fondly a layout a saw when I was a child which was an American one with big trussed bridges etc, a million miles away from what I like now, but as a child I remember being inspired.

Edited June 20, 2017 by grob1234

[Focalplane]

I should not have used the word "cameo" in my recent post as I now realize that is taken to mean some "activity" rather than a simple addition to the scenery.  My favourite Philip Hawkins painting demonstrates what I had in mind (note the trainspotter near the foot of the steps):

 

http://warwickshirerailways.com/misc/ph13.htm

[grob1234]

I should not have used the word "cameo" in my recent post as I now realize that is taken to mean some "activity" rather than a simple addition to the scenery.  My favourite Philip Hawkins painting demonstrates what I had in mind (note the trainspotter near the foot of the steps):

 

http://warwickshirerailways.com/misc/ph13.htm

I have that picture on my model railway wall, I love the evocative nature of an era that has long gone so accurately portrayed, and the light... lovely.

[Focalplane]

I should add that steam loco figures are important to me as well.  Jim McGeown includes white metal figures in his Connoisseur kits, is he alone in doing this?

 

Some of my own figures, ordered from Modelu, appear to have gone astray in the mail.  They are probably wandering around La Poste Roissy, carrying the engine lamps that are in the same package!!!

 

And, Tom, just seen your post - me too, I have a framed print of Snow Hill Saturday above my Legge lane layout.

 

Paul

[grob1234]

As an addendum to my previous waffelings, I have to state that for me, the best layouts are the ones that depict alomost nothing. That wonderful sense of calm that you get in the English countryside after the train has passed. It takes real restraint to achieve that, and great modelling skills as there is nothing to hide behind.

[Torper]

But what's the alternative - crew frozen in time? For my money, the perpetually bending fireman looks worse than nothing.

 

So often it's the "human!" figures that let a layout down.  I've seen pictures of layout when I've marvelled at the realism only for it to be spoiled by human figures, so often utterly unrealistic.  Fortunately I model a 1950s rural Scottish branch so I don't need many figures and those that I will have will be in stationary poses..

 

Passengers in coaches?  Fine in a train that's in service, not so good in coaches that are parked up in the carriage sidings.  Again, in my situation passengers in a coach would probably be unprototypical!

 

Crew on locos?  A bit like in coaches - fine if the loco is working, but what do you do with the crew when it's not?  I don't think that missing crew is too bad when the cab is fully or largely enclosed.

 

And there's the question of road vehicles.  I hate seeing road vehicles placed on the road as though they were actually moving when in fact they remain blissfully stationary while the trains whizz past them - it destroys the moment.  Road vehicles, if used, should be parked or at least prototypically stopped.

 

DT

[APOLLO]

"Annoying layouts" - I've never seen one.

 

Variety (at a model railway exhibition) is the spice of life. I like large layouts like Tony's, small layouts, layouts stuffed with electronics, computers, lights & sounds, cameo features, plain layouts, modern image, 70's, 60's, 50,s and older. You name it. Big O gauge layouts are my favorite though (Gifford Street especially). Exhibitions would be boring if all layouts followed a constant theme of any description.

 

As to working "gimmicks" I have just one on my O gauge American layout, a Walthers motorised "Nodding Donkey" oil pump, nobody has yet noticed it is placed over a tunnel !!!, I have, however "over egged" the colour light signals a bit, I am a fan of US "red over yellow over green" multiple head signals !!!!!.

 

Brit15

[Focalplane]

It's raining (first time in weeks) so I am enjoying being indoors.  This is an unrehearsed photo that depicts my recent post and a very untidy layout / work bench / loco testing area, otherwise known as Legge Lane.  Philip Hawkins' Snow Hill Saturday looks down, pouring down inspiration on the chaos below!

 

 

The photo includes:

 

Lee Marsh RTR Jubilee Polyphemus

Modern Outline Kits 14XX 1459

Assorted weathered Dapol wagons

Midland Railway Centre 60ft Turntable

 

Out of the field of view is a scratch built engine shed:

 

 

Legge Lane is total fiction and I now realize that modelling an actual prototype (in my case Penmaenpool) is more of a challenge and offers much greater rewards, should I ever complete it!

Edited June 20, 2017 by Focalplane

[Atso]

Hello Tony,

 

My, you have been busy with Big Bertha since I saw her on Saturday and I'm glad that you didn't get bored or think 'oh no' when we showed up!

 

Given that weight and inertia does not scale properly then I think the most scientific way of getting a locomotive weighted correctly is as you describe - keep adding weight until the locomotive does the job required of it. My comments relate to the difficulty in achieving this in N gauge and, as a result, I'm very much in the pro traction tyres camp.

 

Regarding coach gangways, again I'm grateful for the trade providing us with close coupling systems in N gauge - although your comments about bouncing and uncoupling are correct but I find this with quite a bit of stock fitted with Rapido couplings whether they have a close coupling system or not. While I do also find that my Dapol Gresleys do have a tendency to pull apart under load (eight coaches plus), the resulting gap is still less than other gangway stock not so fitted and the problem seems to disappear once the train is moving.

 

Gimmicky cameos: These annoy me too however, as others have stated, the to attract the attention of the uninitiated so, while not to my taste, I believe they do have a place at exhibitions. I once read or was told that if I couldn't model something convincingly it was better not to model it rather than have it stand out like a sore thumb - i.e. very bright flashing lights, although moving figures in the larger scales can be very effective if carefully done with restraint.

 

I did toy with the idea of having moving vehicles on the roads but a lot of traffic would still have been horse drawn and I'm yet to see a convincing moving horse in any scale (it has been attempted).

 

For me a better cameo would be to model an historic train which is noticeably different from the normal operation of the layout. My own interests span from 1925 until the outbreak of war so, while the bulk of my stock is 1930's based, I can (eventually) include a representation of the 1925 locomotive exchange with the GWR, the testing of the River and King Arthur classes by Gresley in 1928 and the rail tours pulled by Stirling's No. 1 in the late 1930s. Funny trains as David Jenkinson put it and a method to indulge my occasional tastes in the designs of the other members of the big four.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Atso

[Andy Hayter]

It is a long time since I have been to a UK exhibition, but here in France there seems to have been a sudden discovery of flashing LEDs.  Up to a point I can see their attraction and sensible use, but there is one layout that contains the following:

 

Level crossings with red flashing stop lights (fair enough I suppose)

Police motor cycles (gendarmes always ride in pairs in my experience) with blue flashing lights

Police car chasing (at such a slow pace no motion was discernible)  the bad guys also with blue flashing lights

Fire engines rushing in a stationary manner to a fire with flashing lights

Road works with lane coned off and yellow flashing lights the full length of the supposed works

Building site with several vehicles from concrete mixers to JCBs all with yellow flashing lights

At least two buildings where arc welding is going on inside and the "necessary" blue/white flashing.

Several fires - one house fire and bonfires - needing red/orange flickering LEDs.

 

Don't these people know when enough is enough?  and don't they realise that some people suffer from light sensitive epilepsy.  I could well imaging that an attack could be brought on with that lot going on.  It certainly gave me a headache and I am not afflicted.

 

This is an extreme example but I see others tending to follow the trend.

[APOLLO]

At least in France layouts won't have one of these !!

 

 

Brit15

[The Johnster]

I'd say that considering how you refer to other modellers they do it to annoy you.

 

It works.  In my feeble defence, it'd been a long hot day, and a bit of a rant does me good sometimes.  Perhaps 'overenthusiastic' might have been a bit less virulent than 'deluded idiots'; a lot of my own modelling wouldn't stand much in the way of close scrutiny...

Edited June 24, 2017 by The Johnster

[£1.38]

Somebody somewhere will find something annoying about any layout. We are forgetting, gentlemen, that Rule 1 applies.

 

If modellers are doing these things purely because they think others will be impressed, then fair enough, they may be misguided. I suspect many modellers really do find these little cameos and gimmicks fun to model though and add to their own personal enjoyment of layout building. If so, that's fine by me.

 

Look on the Internet and you can find photos of many very unusual things that any one photographer might easily have missed - like elephants at Liverpool Lime Street, for example. If we just stuck to what we could find in photos, there would be strictly no trains on Sundays on many branch lines, for example. 

 

I have never witnessed a wedding and a funeral at the same church at the same time though, I must admit. The nearest I got was a vicar who got confused between the two in the middle of his sermon during a wedding ceremony.

Edited June 20, 2017 by £1.38

[chris p bacon]

 a lot of my onw modelling wouldn't stand much in the way of close scrutiny...

 

Do what I do.

 

Model everything at night ...when it's foggy or in a snowstorm..while wearing dark glasses...and facing the other way......

[The Johnster]

Andrew,

 

But what's the alternative - crew frozen in time? For my money, the perpetually bending fireman looks worse than nothing.

 

I know that it's possible to find figures in more static poses, but non-moving humans, be they on the platform, in the coaches or in the streets, will always require us to imagine the movement.

 

Imagining the presence of moving figures is only a tiny step removed from that scenario - and one many of us believe is more realistic than a host of humans, frozen in time.

 

Each to their own !!

 

Regards,

John isherwood.

 

I agree.  A fireman apparently permanently pausing to think midway through shovel swing (perhaps he is waiting for the closed firefole doors to magically open) looks odd, but a fireman leaning out of the cab, perhaps looking backwards to pick up the 'tip' or checking that the train is following in order, looks fine.  There are techniques to 'suggest' the presence of humanity without modelling too many of them, such as open doors, bicycle left propped up, jacket hanging on something, while the railwaymen are all in the cabin having a cuppa.  Waiting passengers look odd after a train has just left, and the per way gang leaning on their shovels for half an hour before they have to get out of the way of the next train do as well, but the world isn't perfect, and compromises have to be made.  

 

My blt has no passengers on the platform; it is the sort of place that was small enough for everyone to be aware when the train turned up, and the station would have spent most of it's time deserted anyway.  I have no intention of exhibiting it.

[The Johnster]

Just to put things a bit straight after yesterday's heat stroke inspired rantings, I have no objection to the sort of exhibition layout that has a lot going on in in the way of cameos and set piece action; it is not the way I choose to model personally but has a role to play in the exhibition world, attracts the punters, and gives huge pleasure to it's makers and operators.  And you/ve got to smile as the coffin is lowered in, only to come back up again.  It shows, and the purpose of an exhibition is to show, one of the things you can do with model railways and is the preferred model for large commercial layouts, especially on the Continent where they have this sort of thing down to a fine art, so there is certainly a  proven market for it!  I just want the lighting to back off a bit; most of it would burn out retinas at a mile if scaled up to full size, and flashing lights draw your attention even when you want to ignore them; again, to be fair, that is what they are for, but they are very annoying...  I don't mind 'out of the box' layouts with trainset track, the same locos, stock, and rtr or kit buildings either, in fact I've seen some very good ones that follow prototypical railway operating practice in a way that puts some finescale efforts to shame, and they are an illustration to the punters that you can achieve something that will give you satisfaction at a less demanding skill level than some of your modelling friends might have told you; they are as much a valid part of the modelling scene as anything else, and, if the truth ever came out, my own efforts are not much advanced from them...

 

The point about tail lights on locos is a slightly different issue.  If you are modelling modern image (which to me means anything without a steam engine unless it's preserved), the loco and tail lights of trains are bright enough to be very plainly seen in bright daylight, and should be modelled as such, but, and this is very important IMHO, the tail lights of locomotives should not be lit at all unless the locomotive is proceeding light engine, is the tail gunner of a raft of light engines, or is propelling right line.  I do not model modern image and am not familiar with the way these matters are usually arranged, but I suspect that a big part of the problem is that the manufacturers provide the locos, quite correctly, with a full set of directionally controlled lights but do not provide a convenient method of switching them off; my scenario of propelling right line requires the headlights to be extinguished while the tail lights are illuminated, and the tail lights should be extinguished unless they are actually at the back of the train, which should have it's own flashing tail light.  Dmus, emus, and set trains (HST, Voyager, Pendelino etc,, in tact most modern passenger trains) are less of a problem, but as soon as freight work with locos and wagons comes in to play, on go the bright loco tail lights and Johnster gets upset.

 

While we are having a rantette, may I just have a pop at moving road vehicles.  They are a wonderful idea, a sea change in how things are modelled, and I heartily approve of them, but watch the speed on 90 degree bends, please, even if it means your bus or truck proceeding more slowly than it needs to on the straight.  Period modellers have the advantage here as road traffic generally was slower 50 and plus years ago, and a lorry or bus rumbling and lurching ponderously along a country road looks very effective, but the sort of modern urban zipping around corners one often sees does not.  A scale 15-20mph looks much better in most urban environments, and, unless you're on a motorway, I'd keep it down to 25-30mph even in the countryside; you need to be going not much faster than a realistic speed around your sharpest bend.  

Edited June 20, 2017 by The Johnster

[t-b-g]

I would never dream of telling others what they should or shouldn't have on their layouts but on balance, a loco crew could easily appear on the footplate of a loco on shed, preparing for a trip or disposing of the loco after one. Yet I have never, ever, heard of a real steam loco pulling a train with nobody in the cab (apart from an odd "run away").

 

A fireman doesn't have to be frozen with a shovel of coal in hand. He can be looking out of the cab or even taking a breather by sitting down where seats are provided.

 

The late Malcolm Crawley didn't consider any of his locos to be finished until they had coal, lamps, crew and fire irons. Even Buckingham used headlamps that could be added and removed as required.

 

I usually limit figures to suitable "inactive" poses. A bloke sitting on a seat waiting for a train is fine by me. One permanently running but frozen to the spot, who doesn't even stop when no trains are around, is not for me.

 

Likewise a road worker sitting on a pile of muck smoking his "non pc" cigarette or with an enamel mug set down beside him will always win over one holding his pick axe in mid air.

 

I would rather have a road vehicle parked in a yard than one moving unrealistically at a constant speed, as most model ones do. I find that if the whole "scene" is still, then it holds together and becomes almost a frame for the working trains. If some items within the scenery move or do things like flash their lights, it only emphasises the fact that the rest of the scene is not "live".

 

I am not against "gimmicks" to add interest and create attention but they have to be thought through and done with a subtlety that is sadly lacking on a lot of exhibition layouts for them to work for me.  

[Barry Ten]

It's certainly a bit of a gimmick but I added some working swans to a corner of my layout.

 

They sit and swim around in very low key way, just adding a subliminal hint of life, without overpowering it.

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zAoSRZPFcQ

 

I've since redeveloped this whole scene to remove most of the buildings, but the swans remained.

 

Alastair